Gilded Age: Part 2

Elemmire

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Elemmire
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...iple-of-workers-skirts-law-as-sec-delays.html

So I think I recall talking about how after inflation CEO/executive pay has increase 281% (iirc) and wages for the rest of us has increased 0% since the 1970s, but my god. This is even more ridiculous. CEOs paid 1000%+ more than their workers. Considering there's a finite amount of money, that means that workers are getting screwed. Considering how many workers can barely make a wage to live off of and it's getting worse, this is just appalling.
 
Considering there's a finite amount of money, that means that workers are getting screwed.


False.

If the CEO's made less money that does not mean that every cashiers wage magically rises. you're delving into a zero-sum-economy fallacy.
 
How is that necessarily false? If the executives keep taking more, and, yes, there is a finite amount of money, then where would the money go? Sure it could go to shareholders or it could be sat on by the company, but if we actually properly taxed corporations on their profits then they'd likely reinvest that money back into themselves and either hire more people or pay their people better.

And I sure how you aren't going to defend the executives/CEOs getting paid so ridiculous... or this second gilded age. Guess what the last Gilded Age brought us? Was a pretty big historical event for our world.
 
How is that necessarily false? If the executives keep taking more, and, yes, there is a finite amount of money, then where would the money go? Sure it could go to shareholders or it could be sat on by the company, but if we actually properly taxed corporations on their profits then they'd likely reinvest that money back into themselves and either hire more people or pay their people better.

I'm starting to wish we'd just lump all this shit into one topic.

The false part is the idea that executive pay is not directly responsible for corporate growth. If you've got the best people running the company, and you pay them accordingly so as to keep them running your company, you can see more growth and more profits than you would otherwise. As I mentioned in the other thread where you people are currently talking about the exact same shit, spreading the wages of your high-pay executives amongst the workers in the company quite possibly will not see the kind of growth that corporations have seen with those ridiculously well-paid executives.

I'm not a fan of the idea, mind you, and I think the structure of the system is one that encourages short-term growth at the expense of long-term stability, particularly in the financial world, and especially in the lower strata of upper management, but I can at least see the logic behind it.

As for the rest...

We've discussed this. Publicly traded corporations are beholden to their stockholders, which is why they try to keep stock values high and dividends flowing. Both of these things are augmented by companies that turn a profit.

Part of the problem here is that you're conflating raising taxes with closing loopholes, and you only really need to focus on the latter.

Then again, I still hold that the entire notion of corporate taxes is a ridiculous bookkeeping trick that shunts those costs onto the rest of us anyway, so I'd be perfectly happy to abolish them altogether. And then corporations would have no reason to hide their money in offshore accounts and pull ridiculous shit like what Apple is doing currently, wherein it's selling stock in order to pay dividends (which costs it money) rather than simply bring some money from its offshore accounts into the states, because the money it's going to lose in the stock offering is less significant than the money it would pay in taxes to bring those profits home so that they could be distributed.
 
How many times must I remind you that money doesn't necessarily get you the best qualified person for the job. It can help, but it's not necessarily going to find you the best people for a job as not everyone values money the same as others.

And abolishing corporate taxes is a terrible idea. They'd still sit on it, they'd still influence our politics with it, they'd still push for laws that allow them to pollute because it's cheaper and they'd never get fined for it because of "too big to fail, too big to jail" that's become the way of our world now since government and corporations are so heavily married together.

And, I'd argue the full costs of taxes AREN'T being pushed down on us because they couldn't possible to do that and hope to keep selling to people for luxury items. For things of necessity like power, water, food, etc I could see them fully pushing the costs of taxes on us, but for non-essentials I don't. But that's why most things that are essentials (Power, water) are heavily regulated so that their profits should be around a "normal profit" so that they aren't over inflating the cost on people. For corporations/businesses that deal with essentials to life I could possibly see a 0% tax rate, but I'd also see heavy regulations making sure they can't force people to pay more than needed for operational costs. That kinda business should never be a for profit kinda business anyways as far as I'm concerned. As to what is "essential" is really dependent on the society/country, but for most food, water, and power are generally considered essentials of most first world societies (and internet is seemingly becoming more of one too).

But that's another topic >.>

As for taxes as a whole: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/a-tax-system-stacked-against-the-99-percent/

An opinion blog, but well written with facts to back it up.
 
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That kinda business should never be a for profit kinda business anyways as far as I'm concerned. As to what is "essential" is really dependent on the society/country, but for most food, water, and power are generally considered essentials of most first world societies (and internet is seemingly becoming more of one too).
yeah... good luck getting anyone with an ounce of competence to enter those industry's when there's no profit in it.
I mean its not like they have to feed their kids or anything right?

Also you'd be killing the most important driving factor to IMPROVEMENT of all of those essentials.

profit drives all innovation.

Noone does shit for free elem, if there's no profit in it, then noones gonna give two shits about doing it, welcome to reality and human nature, we are self serving, noones going to martyr themselves to provide you with food electricity and internet. and noone owes it to you without proper compensation either.

the more and more we get into these discussions the more it seems to me that your problem isn't with government or corporations, it's with mankind.

You seem to think everyone should just go threw life serving each other with no thought to their own benefit. Thats not the world we live in.

when it comes right down to it, joe shmo down the street actually doesn't give two shits how your gonna feed you're kids, or improve you're lot in life, hes worrying about how He's gonna feed his kids and improve his lot in life. (oh he may SAY he cares, and he may actually feel a little sad to hear you're not doing well. but it will be passing, and hes not gonna stick his neck out for you)

And as hard as you find it to believe, Capitalism is the most effect system ever seen on earth, of channeling those self serving interest, in a way that benefits everyone.


Oh, and internet, and power arn't really "essential". It's "essential" that you breath oxygen, and intake food and water. everything else is optional.
 
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How many times must I remind you that money doesn't necessarily get you the best qualified person for the job. It can help, but it's not necessarily going to find you the best people for a job as not everyone values money the same as others.

It's not a guarantee.

But it's a hell of a factor.

Let me be frank: I am, for all intents and purposes, a teacher. I haven't completed my student teaching process as yet, but I know the meat of everything a teacher needs to know.

More importantly, I interact with teachers in a professional sense on a regular basis.

There's a test for certifying teachers in Delaware called the Praxis. In truth, there are several tests, but for the moment we'll focus on the Praxis I.

That one is, more or less, a version of the SATs. The difference is that the Praxis I requires a certain score to pass. A fairly high score in Delaware, in fact, right around a 90%.

You would be disturbed how many would-be teachers fail the Praxis I.

Do they love what they do?

Of course.

Are they necessarily the best people for the job because of that?

Now there is an interesting question. I've had friends who love to play poker; it didn't alter the fact that they were terrible at it and I could pretty easily fleece them at will, despite the fact that I do not enjoy gambling in particular.

Just because someone loves something, or loves the idea of a thing, it does not follow that they're any good at it.

Highly competent people tend to seek professions which will reward them accordingly. People good with their hands may take up a trade, people good with their minds will find a career.

A career that pays poorly, however, will tend to weed out a significant fraction of the most competent, simply because they know they can do better elsewhere. You can natter on all you like about how you only want people who love what they do working in government, but if I were going under the knife of a surgeon, I'd be looking for the one who was the most skilled, and fuck me if I'd care whether he liked the job or not.

So long as he got paid.

And abolishing corporate taxes is a terrible idea. They'd still sit on it...

Don't be an idiot. The only reason they invest (yes, those foreign corporations and investment accounts are still investments) the money outside the country is to avoid paying taxes on it, because in the short term those taxes would cost more than the money is likely to make if put to greater use, and they like having a reasonable amount of money around for emergencies.

they'd still influence our politics with it, they'd still push for laws that allow them to pollute because it's cheaper and they'd never get fined for it because of "too big to fail, too big to jail" that's become the way of our world now since government and corporations are so heavily married together.

Well duh.

That's what corporations do: seek ways to make money.

The job of government is to work against that. Yet, ironically, you spend most of your time railing against corporations rather than elected officials.

And, I'd argue the full costs of taxes AREN'T being pushed down on us because they couldn't possible to do that and hope to keep selling to people for luxury items.

That's because you're not looking at the situation very carefully.

I will make this as simple as I possibly can: Taxes are an expense.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of bookkeeping for a corporation. That's all. Net profit is proceeds minus expenses. Materials, wages, taxes; all of these are expenses. All of them add to costs, and all of them will subsequently be reflected in the costs of products and the amount of money available to the corporation for investment.

For things of necessity like power, water, food, etc I could see them fully pushing the costs of taxes on us, but for non-essentials I don't. But that's why most things that are essentials (Power, water) are heavily regulated so that their profits should be around a "normal profit" so that they aren't over inflating the cost on people.

Water and power are heavily regulated because they operate as functional monopolies. Yes, FERC has the power to regulate prices, but they exercise it rarely. Mostly the ability is there to prevent outright gouging, since those industries operate, as I mentioned earlier, in a near-monopolistic state.

You might have options for power, less so for water.


An opinion blog, but well written with facts to back it up.

An opinion blog that tends to ignore the evidence regarding capital gains tax rates vs revenues.
 
Or, do they operate as functional monopolies because of the heavy regulation? >_>

No, mostly it's because they're industries with a staggering barrier to entry.

Anybody can use the roads, or the railroads, or the airwaves, etc.

How many corporations can use a water pipe at the same time?

The answer, invariably, is "one". Now, you can have companies that dig wells, or run separate smaller systems from their own wells, but you have to regulate that fairly heavily as well so as to keep prices from going too low. Water is a finite resource, after all, and overexploitation of it would be utterly disastrous, as significant parts of many countries are currently discovering.

Now, power generation gets a bit easier in some regards here, since it's not a finite resource (per se) and while there might be only one wire going to the house, the meter that regulates it and the power that pushes the current can be provided into the grid by functionally anyone.

However.

That's where the barrier to entry really kicks in. You're talking billions of dollars, on investments that only pay off after decades of use.
 
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