. . .

He has no heart in the matter, his view is "well the constitution allows it so its 'ok' to do" and he'd be right in saying so. But I'm not looking for his political view, I'm looking for his view morally. Everyone of his posts says the government allows it so it doesn't bother him, and he pulls out a fourth of july napkins and shit, so I go around him by using a funeral. Its the moral and justification of the matter and the disrespect caused from it.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my view, I pull out he has no heart because he hasn't shown it. I swear, if the Constitution said it was ok to drive cars off bridge, he'd be backing it or using it as an "ok" thing to do. I took my defense when he commented my view on desecrating a flag and what it stands for.
 
Moink said:
Glad you can read Xalionaf, I bolded what you appearently are blind to see.:crazy: Also, burnings don't have to be on their lawn, just as much as posting the flag doesn't have to be in their lawn. As long as it is done visually infront of someone or near someone who is a citizen of a nation that the protesters are against.
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I didn't ignore it. But I had no comment on it. There's nothing illegal about hanging a flag upside-down, but how do I know you're not gonna use that flag to set my house on fire?
Fuck, if you came on my property and set fire to anything on my lawn, I'd run outside and punch you in the face. Why would you do that?
 
And he took his stance in saying that people have the right to freedom of speech. Regardless of whether or not you, personally, think he has "heart"... he did make a statement, and stuck by it. That is indicative of his views/morals/whatever.

But why am I arguing for Hali... I'm very possibly misconstruing his words, and if he wants to reply to you, he will.

I'll post my own thoughts on the subject when I get back from the gym.
 
So anyone that burns a flag intends to set all of america ablaze in a scourge of hellfire?
And i hate it when americans in general declare something "unpatriotic". Look at what that has been used for. Let me give you a hint. it's used to force people to have their right violated or make you feel good about letting atrocities happen because stopping it would mean you might be unpatriotic.

Know what happened when America decided to invade Iraq under the pretense that it was allied with al quaeda?(And set out to LIE to those who weren't ignorant enough to believe that already) Far less people protested than one would normally see because they were afraid it was unpatriotic. News stations refused to report the facts or investigate/report scandals if they might be seen as unpatriotic.
Hell, pointing out that AMERICA GAVE Saddam the weapons we invaded him for supposedly having when we had no proof that he had anything left was unpatriotic. Pointing out that America supported Saddam in his monstrosities so long as he committed them to people America didn't like was unpatriotic.
Anyone remember hearing about the Hollywood blacklists?
Do not go on about the flag as if it's the most holy relic in existence. If i look at the stuff that has been done under that flag it seems more like it's symbol of stifling freedom at times until you look at how bad some other countries can get. Remember it's just a piece of cloth that represents something and don't EVER forget what exactly it represents. It does not represent America as much as the ideals that you the people are supposed to protect, cherish and uphold. Sure it does represent America too but what happens when the people in charge of it decide they have their own different and contrary(to the constitution) ideals? Far too much bad can, will, and has happened((at what is sadly too common an occurrence. ) when people taking a flag too seriously allow it's mere existence to negate the rights of others because they have "authority". If the person acting contrary to the ideals that america is supposed to uphold why is it always considered unpatriotic to not support a person that is in a position of power?
I'm seeing a slippery slope here with all that "patriotic talk". You aren't defending the ideals behind the flag. you're arguing that individual rights mean nothing when you don't like something. That's what i think at least.
 
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Xalioniaf said:
I didn't ignore it. But I had no comment on it. There's nothing illegal about hanging a flag upside-down, but how do I know you're not gonna use that flag to set my house on fire?
Fuck, if you came on my property and set fire to anything on my lawn, I'd run outside and punch you in the face. Why would you do that?
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You'd be surprised to what people would do in stance of protesting.

The memories of the aftermath from 9/11... although i wouldn't call it a protest against a government.
 
Except that I have no problem with protest. Where did I ever state I had any problem with it? I'm saying if you go out on someone's lawn and burn anything, not just a flag, that'd be warrant enough for the property owner to go outside and try to stop you. You asked what Hali would do if you "took a flag and burn[ed] it down on your lawn", OR some other form of protest I have no problem with. And I don't have a problem with flag burning, but if you set it on fire in front of my house, then yeah I'm gonna get pissed. Not because you're setting fire to a flag, but you're lighting a fire in front of my house, on my property, that I don't condone. That's why I said it's a bad example.
 
Moink said:
But I'm not looking for his political view, I'm looking for his view morally. Everyone of his posts says the government allows it so it doesn't bother him...
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I was giving you my moral view. Morally, I'm not bothered by flag desecration. I don't view it as a sacred object, so I don't care what anyone does to it. This isn't going to be a shock, but I have the same feelings about the Bible and the Koran.

My political view is that it's often counterproductive to mess with the flag because it can stir people up and make it harder to get your point across. That doesn't mean it's never justified.

There's a business near here that, shortly after the invasion of Iraq, put up a big flag with a black band around it to show mourning for the death of America's ideals. A local cop went in and started hassling the owner and telling him he had to take it down or he'd get arrested. I guess he thought we were living in a police state.

As for the military funeral example, the protesters are being rude. I'd hardly expect the family to ignore it. That doesn't mean I necessarily think they should be thrown in jail. People being rude dicks is a by-product of freedom of speech. I'll take the risk of rudeness because the benefits are so much greater.

But a funeral isn't the same thing as a student protest against immigration policy. Unless the deceased somehow caught the eye of the fools at Westboro Baptist Church, you're hardly likely to encounter anyone with a picket sign in a cemetery. The same cannot be said of a protest rally.

If it sounds like I'm heartless, it's from plenty of practice fending off logic-free emotional appeals from Jesus People. It's just the way I argue. You're still cool in my book, Moink.
 
This is a great example of an emotionally backed argument vs a non-emotionally backed argument.

Well said Hali. I like... reading(/hearing?)... you speak.
 
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