A Message to Keits.

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/em wipes the sweat off his forhead.

I know I am not the one to be all like "pretzels mixed with orange juice equal elephants! " but come on people these threads multiply faster then bacteria. this thread smells like someone set it up just to see keits and dale flame and nuke the fuck out of it before it even got its 1st page view.

100 replies in one day hawt damn....

Now forgive me but after reading the first 2 pages I forgot what was going on and I dont know if anything changed on page 3-7 so bear with me.

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You really misunderstand the argument T.
The argument isn't about the existence of Truth or Facts, as your like to that inane website indicates. The argument is what is truth and what is opinion. What Keits is stating is an opinion. It really is. By definition it is opinion. ITs all good though. It is a very valid opinion. I wouldn't argue against it. What I argue is the use of opinions on this board when stated as facts. You cannot argue against a fact. People, and I'm not necessarily accusing Keits of this, use their opinions under the guise of facts, to make theiur arguments and bully people. It is like this "I say this, it is a FACT, so you'd be stupid to argue with it" which throws anyone in opposition into the "stupid" category.

Well, it would be stupid to argue with a fact. Most of what is expressed here are opinions.
However, trying to compare NIN/THF to a good combonation is like saying, "Yeah, a max speed of 25mph is slow for a sports car, but you have to compare that to hopping!" No, we don't.
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Yes, you do if you want to call something a fact. I'm not saying that NIN/THF is a good combination. Quote me where I have. Truth is, I dont give a shit whether it is good or not. I only give a shit about opinions being misrepresented as facts. In order to prove something you MUST eliminate any possible case wherein the idea can possibly be false. This is why there are more scientific theries than there are laws. The theory of relativity has been held true and demostrated to be correct in many many cases. However, it isnt law because it doesnt always work. Keits' NIN/THF can be held true in many many cases, but not all.
In an EXP party where you want to get EXP quickly and efficiently, a NIN/THF is worthless
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Quickly and efficiently aren't clearly defined standards. Call it "relatvistic bullshit" and be ignorant if you want. Ignore the fact that the concepts in this video-game are often interprative. While one person's quick can be another person's slow, one man's fact cannot be another's opinion. Now, one of is right: Either Keit's IS stating a fact and I'm wrong, or Keits is stating an opinion and he's wrong. In the end, it is just debate. IT doesn't really matter which is right or wrong, we both have agendas that we are trying to push. I'm having a good time doing it, it is an interesting debate.

You on the other hand have added nothing. You have proven only that you aren't particularly good at argument form, your analogies are simple and incorrect, and that you cannot follow a discussion very well Tyrion. You incorrectly judged the elements of a discussion and made only worthless and insulting comments thereafter. You'll probably find this judgement insulting and demeaning, which will only provoke further response. Go right ahead. I would rather you add something usefull to the argument rather than posting a link to a website that boasts porrly concieved, a priori truisms that lack truth.
 
Hmm... Dale, you forgot to add the obligitory flame. Why not take a cheap shot at his mom, sister, or some member of his family.... we all know those dont blow up in your face... :roll:

-Ham :shock:
 
Thats what I'm talking about!

Now your point is complete. Remember what Keits keeps in mind, its a flame board so why not flame everyone at every oppourtunity?

WEEEEEE

-Ham :shock:
 
In an EXP party where you want to get EXP quickly and efficiently, a NIN/THF is worthless.
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Exactly. This is a statement of fact, based on mathematical calculations.

Dale's points about fact vs opinion aside:

If you take on a 6th members because (in dale's words) "You want a little more XP", then you are actually slowing the entire party down, when compared to you taking in no 6th member at all. Its not much of a slow down, but when you factor in the time your party of 5 might wait for its worthless 6th member to even arrive, you begin to understand that, factually, taking in any job that doesnt substantially add to the party will actually slow you down, when compared to a smaller party consisting wholey of people who contribute greatly.

And I agree with Dale, in that many people on these forums (and others) spout their opinions and label them fact. My opinions are always prefaced by "i think" or "i believe" or some such thing. My facts are always backed up with evidence and numbers, if not right away, then by request.

This is one of the main reasons that the Keits becomes so furious at people here. If you can cut this practice out, I probably wont become even half as angry with you.
 
Wow :shock: I agree entirely with Keits earlier mention of being mean only on the flame forums now... I bothered him in game and he was plenty nice without any reason to be and now this a Keits the flame forum version as to be expected in a FLAME forum.
 
forgot to check the date before reading any of this :cry:
 
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
/poke Keits
 
Sorry, I try to stay out of Keits' topics, but I finally reread this topic and just can't resist this one.

Group A - Group of 6 good members. Kills EMs at a rate of 1 per minute. This group kills 60 monsters per hour. They make 2100xp.

Group B - Group of 5 good members, with one poor member. Kills EMs at a rate of 1 per one and a half minutes. This group kills 40 monsters per hour. This group makes 1400xp.

Group C - Group of 5 good members. Kills ITs at a rate of 1 per one and a half minutes. (Under the reasoning that the 6th worthless member was adding very little, and wasting healer mana being cured from AE). This group makes 1440xp.
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WTF is this mess? ^^ I think what you need to prove here is that you get more xp in a 5 man party than a 6 man party with a lacking 6-th man. You didn't do that in the examples provided. Let me do it for you. FYI, I'm also not including xp chains.

Group A - a good 6-man party: Irrelevant, we're not comparing anything to this.

Group B - 6 man group with 1 poor member. From FFXI Mystery Tour, a 6 man group will get 35 xp per kill from an EM. If it takes the group 1.5 minutes to kill an EM, then they will average 40 kills per hour and get 1400 xp per hour.

Group C - 5 man group doing IT. This was your flaw, you should be comparing to a 5-man group doing EM, not a 5 man group doing IT's. If this 5-man group can handle IT's, then so can group B. Afterall, group B is the same as group C, but has a DD who doesn't do a lot of damage. Again, from FFXI Mystery Tour, a 5 man group will get 37 xp per kill from an EM. You will have to assume the lacking player did SOME damage, so we'll say that damage can be made up in 1 attack round. Let's just say it's 6 seconds for an attack round (2-handed weapons have huge delays after all. I know my MNK attacked every 7-8 seconds, so 6 is a nice medium to get everyone to attack once.) So if group B can do this mob in 1.5 minutes, then this 5 man group can kill the same mob in 1.6 minutes, for an average of 37.5 kills per hour and 1387 xp per hour.

Now how is 1387 > 1400? Seems your math doesn't add up does it?

I'd also like to point out that eventhough a NIN/RNG would do more damage throwing shirukens, and eventhough you won't ever really see a NIN spamming shiruken, that a NIN/THF can spam shiruken and do extremely good damage. It would seem that NIN/THF being worthless is in FACT, an opinion.

I will have to agree that most of the time, a NIN/THF is worthless though. And that if you have a 5-man group, it is almost always better to wait for a 6-th man that can contribute to the party. If it's getting late (only a couple hours left to party), then by all means, go ahead and go with what you can get.

Forgot this one, the 6th man taking AE damage will NOT make that group kill slower than the 5-man group. I almost didn't want to discuss your AE damage taking up healer MP, but figured since you don't ever seem to wrap your head around the fact that AE damage is almost always cured with curaga, that I should point that out. If the AE damage isn't being cured by curaga, then your group is either taking too long to kill (multiple ae's in the same fight) or you don't have a RDM or BRD that can toss out the curaga and not pull hate. Of course, I'm spoiled from having a blink tank and BRD in my static, so curaga's are thrown out like candy at a parade in most of my groups.

Whichever way you lean on the "curaga" issue, is where the real debate here is, because if you don't have someone to throw out that curaga, then it very will could take longer for Group B to kill than Group C. But that's not something you can prove 100% of the time, and therefor becomes an opinion.
 
Group C - Group of 5 good members. Kills ITs at a rate of 1 per one and a half minutes. (Under the reasoning that the 6th worthless member was adding very little, and wasting healer mana being cured from AE). This group makes 1440xp.
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This was a typo. It should have read "Group of 5 good members, with one stragler, killing EMs".

Not an error in reasoning, just in wording/typing.
 
So, I say NIN/THF is 100% all of the time worthless.

You say NIN/THF is usually worthless, unles they spam shurican (which I've seen exactly 0 times, ever. There is a reason for that, too.... Price. If you wanted to be a ranged damage dealer with blink and duel weild, RNG/NIN does that better and cheaper. Furthermore, NIN/RNG does this better than NIN/THF. There isnt a single instance outside of farming that /THF is a better option on a NIN. Never. Ever. Never. No.

And I stand by what I said: A 5 man group with 5 contributing members will make more xp per hour than a 6 man group with 5 contributing members. A NIN/THF, in this example, is not a contributing member. His tiny damage is balanced out by the extra xp divisor, and the fact that he requires some form of extra maintenance from the party's support (be that an extra cure or poisona or w/e). Lets also factor in the time it takes to get your 6th cruddy member TO your party.

My examples were generous, and (other than my poor wording/typo) illustrate my point well. You might as well invite a BST that isnt using a jug-pet or an even-matched charm... totally cruddy damage, small ammounts of extra maintenance, close to same speed kills, larger xp divisor.

Thats that.


On curaga ~ Thats for post battle. What happens when your 6th cruddy member needs a heal during the heal of the fight from repeated AE? Toss a DS Curaga mid fight? /em shakes head.
 
And I stand by what I said: A 5 man group with 5 contributing members will make more xp per hour than a 6 man group with 5 contributing members. A NIN/THF, in this example, is not a contributing member. His tiny damage is balanced out by the extra xp divisor, and the fact that he requires some form of extra maintenance from the party's support (be that an extra cure or poisona or w/e). Lets also factor in the time it takes to get your 6th cruddy member TO your party.
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Then you're saying 2+2=5, because I proved, with math, that what you just said is not correct.

Your "math" is assuming that you're fighting a mob that casts AE, and that that AE is enough that one curaga won't be enough to give that 6th member enough HP back. It's also assuming that the lost mp from having to heal the 6th member in this instance would cause your group to kill slower. It's possible that this is true, but it's not going to be true all of the time. That's an aweful lot of assumptions to be considered a fact, isn't it? What happens when one of those conditions aren't met?

Plus you're forgetting that if this supposed 6th member took enough damage that a curaga is not enough, then that curaga isn't going to be enough for the other 2-3 melee characters. In this instance, yes, it's possible that the 5-man group kills quicker then the 6-man group, but its still can't be proved, as every party and every fight is different. It is possible that the mages have enough mp to cover the rare fight when that happens, and it's possible that they won't.

Saying there isn't an instance where A outperforms B is NOT the same as saying B is worthless to the party on a whole. I'm sure a RNG with the best of everything can outdamage any other character, so does that mean MNK (on non-undead) and DRK are worthless to every party? The fact is I proved that there exists conditions where your fact is not true, which means your fact isn't a fact. Accept it and move on.

And just so we're clear, the conditions of my previous post are regarding AE damage and curaga, not spamming shiruken.
 
Taruwaru said:
In this instance, yes, it's possible that the 5-man group kills quicker then the 6-man group, but its still can't be proved, as every party and every fight is different.
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By this logic, no cars are faster than one another either.[/quote]
 
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