A Message to Keits.

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*inserts epistimological critique* oh snap where is your precious logic now, whats that you say mathematics does not apply to my critique, huzzah woop bang, of course it doesnt because it is based on constructed truths and realities that are true in and of themselves because they are baseless in the world of experience and are entirely a priori not posteriori AHHHHHHH run run and hide from something. Kierkegaard just took a shat on this page.......kind of but not really, a metaphorical shat. What would Nietzsche say about my metaphors.....probably that it is only natural to linguistic constructs which are entirely metaphorical.....AAAAAAAAAAHHHHH *Nietzsche and Kierkegaard descend on thread and dance merrily* Take off your shoes and DANCE DANCE DANCE. omgwtflmaololnoobzoroz2tehmaxorz!pwnj00r50m37(-)!n6.

/poke
/poke
/ DANCE DANCE DANCE

god......im out of it (got ist tot and we have killed him)
 
Tyrion said:
Taruwaru said:
In this instance, yes, it's possible that the 5-man group kills quicker then the 6-man group, but its still can't be proved, as every party and every fight is different.
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By this logic, no cars are faster than one another either.
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??? Wow, that has to be the single most ignorant thing I've ever read. The speed of a car is set and measurable. Different drivers can change it a bit, but it's pretty much always the same.

In a 5-man group with no AE spells, the 6-man group will ALWAYS kill it quicker. If there are AE's, it is possible that the damage caused will cause the 6-man group to kill slower. If you don't understand this, then I won't bother to ever reply to any of your posts ever again.

I mean christ man, look at your posts. You do nothing but bounce up and down on Keits' dick and you never, not once, have ever brought anything but flawed logic and insults to any thread you ever post in. Do us a favor and leave the logic-analyzing to those that actually have an IQ higher than a toad's.
 
Saying there isn't an instance where A outperforms B is NOT the same as saying B is worthless to the party on a whole. I'm sure a RNG with the best of everything can outdamage any other character, so does that mean MNK (on non-undead) and DRK are worthless to every party? The fact is I proved that there exists conditions where your fact is not true, which means your fact isn't a fact. Accept it and move on.
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No. No no no. The point, using NIN/THF as the example, is that NIN's only strong point is tanking. If he isnt tanking, he isnt doing anything else well enough to warrent an invite. He will slow you down, and if he doesnt slow you down, you still get a extra member divided into your xp.

Would you invite a MNK and use him as a ranged attacker? Of course not. He is a melee damage dealer.
How about a DRK to use for buffs and support? No. He is a melee damage dealer.
Would you invite a NIN and use him as a damage dealer? No way. He is an evasion tank.

Comparing NIN/THF (A job combo that cannot perform the one thing it excells at) with a MNK or a DRK is borderline retarded. They may not deal as much damage as a RNG, but they have other advantages that RNGs do not (if you dont know these, just ask). NIN as a damage dealer doesnt bring anything to the table, alongside its piss-poor damage.

My 6th-worthless member examples only work if your 6th member is in fact completely crappy. MNKs and DRKs trying to deal melee damage are anything BUT crappy. NINs trying to deal melee damage are laughable. Why not invite a SMN/SAM that uses bloodpacts and staff skills to Skillchain with himself (after the CoP patch)? That would be just as useful as a NIN/THF, and while adding nothing, would still take a cut of the xp.

Dont be so naive as to think that you can magically make NIN/THF non worthless by spamming shuricans (a feat which is always better as NIN/RNG). This game isnt built like that. You cant just take whatever combo you want and make up a reason why it might not suck in one or two situations. NIN/THF has one use. Pulling. But if I wanted a puller, I could probably get one that aided the party farther after the pull, rather than giving a chunk of my xp to a guy who just pulls mobs back to me.

I dont really know what else to say. If you dont buy into my statements about 5 being better than 5+0 (your extra member), then by all means.. invite a fill in on your 5 man group that wont contribute. He can have some of your xp, and you can move at close to the same speed as you would have without him. Your choice.

Moral: In FFXI, if you are not contributing to the group, you are hurting it. Any extra speed you might gain with the shit damage of a NIN or PLD damage dealer is negated by the extra person being divided into the xp you get.
 
Keits, I would just like to know what your "ideal" party would be. What jobs do you favor, at what levels, and why. I assume there is not just one ideal party because NIN vs PLD is a debate over which is better to tank, and having both in a party is pretty much a waste of a good spot.

I was just curious is all, but since this is a flameboard I guess I have to flame someone... so it might as well be you....

Keits blows goats, I have proof.

-Ham :shock:
 
ThisIsHamburgler said:
Keits, I would just like to know what your "ideal" party would be. What jobs do you favor, at what levels, and why. I assume there is not just one ideal party because NIN vs PLD is a debate over which is better to tank, and having both in a party is pretty much a waste of a good spot.

I was just curious is all, but since this is a flameboard I guess I have to flame someone... so it might as well be you....

Keits blows goats, I have proof.

-Ham :shock:
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An ideal party has the following:

A.) 6 Members that contribute substantially to the party
B.) 1 Tank (NIN or PLD)
C.) 1 Healer (WHM, SMN/WHM or RDM/WHM)
D.) 1 Support (RDM or BRD)
E.) 1 Nuker (BLM, RDM/BLM or RNG)
F.) 2 Damage Dealers (Choices varry on the rest of your setup)

Notes: NIN is better than PLD. PLD is also better than NIN. They both perform so radically different that one can truely shine over the other vs certain mobs, where the other might faulter greatly. To those that say NIN cant hold hate: Your NINs are cheap. They arnt using the elemental-wheel and they arnt tossing shurican as a 2nd provoke.

For healers, its again situational. Every PLD party should have a WHM, but NIN tank groups can get away with a RDM+(BRD or BLM subbed WHM) or a SMN/WHM.

Support is highly situational too. If you have more skillchain potential, a RDM is better support because he can Magic Burst for decent damage. If you have less skillchain potential, the benifits of a Bard are hard to deny.

Every good party should have a BLM. But if you cant find one, RNGs can be considered nukers based on the overall damage they release, and a RDM can work extra hard to try and fill this gap, especially with a BRD supporting him.

Melee DDs are a mixed bag. All have strengths and weaknesses. The only job id invite last here is DRG. DRG is just weak compared to the uses of the rest right now.

Did I leave anything out?
 
wtf i wish they would get rid of blink tanking all together. I would rather have a pld over a nin any day. all he has to do is voke it and heal himself at the most twice before the whm or rdm heals him and then he has all hate. blink tanking can't control hate like a pld can. as long as there is a whm and rdm the tank won't have anything to worry about when he runs out of mp. with a blink tanker you need to worry about bouncing the hate between two vokers. nin i think is best as a puller only b/c you don't take that much damage on the way back when you pull something. I know this is more my option then anything but hey i really dont' care.
 
I'd agree, Pally's are better Tanks, the genereate Hate way More than any NIN can, at least safely.
A Pally Tank can keep Aggro, a Nin tank has to keep it controlled so someone else can Voke it when Utsusemi runs out.
 
If you think that a NIN cant keep hate, boy are you wrong.

Do some more reading.
 
Keits said:
If you think that a NIN cant keep hate, boy are you wrong.

Do some more reading.
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Oh, and to add to that; I understand why you might think that NINs dont hold hate well. I've only seen one on our server who does it properly.
 
Are you getting nice, Keits ? What is wrong with you ? Where's the Ellah, you are an Idiot, and your Brain has the Capacity of an AA, Go Die in a Corner.
 
I would have to say a Blink PT with a BRD = better than anything for most mobs.

I actually leveled outside the static for once since I was behind in XP. I created the PT, no one was under Rank 5, everyone had +1 food, and well equipped, and no one struck me as a noob - and it didn't hold a candle to my Blink static. In my Blink static, mobs get spread like warm butter - even ones that con IT++++ - it doesn't matter...

One of our static members pointed this out awhile ago when we took on a Doom Scorpion at level 36 and owned it (we did miss more than usual though) - while watching a PT of 40s earlier struggle with it. I basically told him its simply because we are well equipped and to not underestimate what a good BRD does to the PT. There has to be more to it than that though...because the PT I formed that was outside the static had a good BRD as well as everyone was well equipped.

I dunno what the magic is, but it works. BTW, there are only 3 members in this static - BRD, NIN, RNG - the other 3 members change every time.
 
I would have to say a Blink PT with a BRD = better than anything for most mobs.

I actually leveled outside the static for once since I was behind in XP. I created the PT, no one was under Rank 5, everyone had +1 food, and well equipped, and no one struck me as a noob - and it didn't hold a candle to my Blink static. In my Blink static, mobs get spread like warm butter - even ones that con IT++++ - it doesn't matter...

One of our static members pointed this out awhile ago when we took on a Doom Scorpion at level 36 and owned it (we did miss more than usual though) - while watching a PT of 40s earlier struggle with it. I basically told him its simply because we are well equipped and to not underestimate what a good BRD does to the PT. There has to be more to it than that though...because the PT I formed that was outside the static had a good BRD as well as everyone was well equipped.

I dunno what the magic is, but it works. BTW, there are only 3 members in this static - BRD, NIN, RNG - the other 3 members change every time.
 
Hrm.. This is kinda out of topic but what the hell. I know ninja's can tank, stupidly and retardly they can tank very well. I highly doubt utsisemi(sp?) was ever intended to be used for tanking purposes, nevertheless someone figured out that it works for that and low and behold everyone started doing it.

I mean, when the fuck was a god damn ninja at the front of the battle taking an enemy head on. Ninja's are fucking assassins, they attack using night as cover and are masters of stealth. What ninja's in FFXI should have is a god damn form of sneak attack, call it Assasinate or whatever you like, but a fucking ninja doesn't fight head on battles (unless you happen to be that Ninja from Ninja Gaiden :P ).

It so pisses me off that ninja's have been made into tanks. Sure they can do it, hell they can do it on par with a real tank, a Paladin, and that is what makes me sick.

As far as it goes, I dont like it one bit. Is that going to stop me from inviting a ninja to tank for my party because there arent any Pld's seeking, ofcourse not. They work. It's just the idea that has me so angry.
 
Ecks said:
Hrm.. This is kinda out of topic but what the hell. I know ninja's can tank, stupidly and retardly they can tank very well. I highly doubt utsisemi(sp?) was ever intended to be used for tanking purposes, nevertheless someone figured out that it works for that and low and behold everyone started doing it.

I mean, when the fuck was a god damn ninja at the front of the battle taking an enemy head on. Ninja's are fucking assassins, they attack using night as cover and are masters of stealth. What ninja's in FFXI should have is a god damn form of sneak attack, call it Assasinate or whatever you like, but a fucking ninja doesn't fight head on battles (unless you happen to be that Ninja from Ninja Gaiden :P ).

It so pisses me off that ninja's have been made into tanks. Sure they can do it, hell they can do it on par with a real tank, a Paladin, and that is what makes me sick.

As far as it goes, I dont like it one bit. Is that going to stop me from inviting a ninja to tank for my party because there arent any Pld's seeking, ofcourse not. They work. It's just the idea that has me so angry.
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The reason you dont like it is because you have bias. You, somewhere, somehow, decided that 'Ninja' means 'Stealth Assasin'. While im told that there is little proof that 'Ninja' actually ever existsed in real life, you still maintain that 'Ninja = Assasin'.

Here is where you have a problem. FFXI is not real life. Real life Samurai were not Skillchain Masters, just as real life Thieves are not 'Hate control specialists'. Ninja in Final Fantasy have never been assasins. They have always been front line melee with the ability to throw weapons for damage.

So, why are you so morally opposed to this in FFXI? Is it the word 'Ninja'? Is it the word 'Tank'? Is it because someone on some forum somewhere said that they heard that someone said that square once mentioned that they never intended utsusemi to be used for evasion? Is it somehow some amazing error that the players have made in forcing NINs to do they only thing in FFXI that they are good at?

So, your only reason for hating the idea of NIN Tanks are the words associtated with them? For lack of better words; this attitude is pretty fucking gay.

"Utsusemi was never intended for tanking purposes" is the biggest cop out ive ever heard. You give a very high evasion job the ability to evade more hits for FREE using magic... and what the fuck do you think people are going to do with it? You think the SE developers were thinking "Oh, they will only use it to avoid all the agro they cant generate with their low damage"? Of course not... this assumption is just ignorant...

Almost as ignorant as being morally opposed to the role of a job-class in a video game as compared to its 'real-life' same-name counterpart.

If you dont like the words 'Ninja Tank', start saying 'Provoking Evasion Guy'.

God, you 'NINs shouldnt be tanks' people drive me nuts.
 
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