A Message to Keits.

[Taruwaru]

wtf i wish they would get rid of blink tanking all together. I would rather have a pld over a nin any day. all he has to do is voke it and heal himself at the most twice before the whm or rdm heals him and then he has all hate. blink tanking can't control hate like a pld can. as long as there is a whm and rdm the tank won't have anything to worry about when he runs out of mp. with a blink tanker you need to worry about bouncing the hate between two vokers. nin i think is best as a puller only b/c you don't take that much damage on the way back when you pull something. I know this is more my option then anything but hey i really dont' care.

It's called Utsusemi: Ni. Look into it a bit. After lvl 37, a NIN does not need anyone to voke off him. He also has the Ni debuffs that can deal 100 damage each. So if at the start of a fight, the THF SA/TA on the NIN for 400 damage, the NIN vokes, then the nin peels off 4 Ni debuffs in a row, 400 more damage, I'd have to say that's some serious hate. Don't forget to add in the occasional shiruken and those 4 debuffs again in 40 seconds.

Hate control is something the whole party should be doing, not just the tank. If your BLM is starting off the fight with a huge nuke, or the RNG starts off with Barrage, or the DRK begins with last resort / soul eater, yeah, he's gonna die. But that's the fault of a bad DD, not the blink tank.

A blink tank will get you more xp per hour on most mobs than a PLD will. You just have to be smart about hate management. Of course, this requires a NIN who isn't a cheapskate, which is pretty rare from what I hear.

 

[Keits]

this requires a NIN who isn't a cheapskate, which is pretty rare from what I hear.

Understatement of the fucking century.

 

[Theorist]

Hate control is something the whole party should be doing, not just the tank. If your BLM is starting off the fight with a huge nuke, or the RNG starts off with Barrage, or the DRK begins with last resort / soul eater, yeah, he's gonna die. But that's the fault of a bad DD, not the blink tank.

Amen brudder. DEATH to the chain nuking BLM...literally

A blink tank will get you more xp per hour on most mobs than a PLD will. You just have to be smart about hate management. Of course, this requires a NIN who isn't a cheapskate, which is pretty rare from what I hear.

I don't know how many times our Static has hit Chain 5, but just missed Chain 6 - and kept on pulling...cause Mages still have craploads of MP. Yeah, Blink tank PTs kick ass if you know how to run them.

And I have to agree with Keits too. NIN may not mean "tank" to some poeple, but think about what they do best. They use Blinks to avoid attacks, dual weapons with capped Parry to parry attacks, High Evasion and Agility to dodge attacks, and throw in a couple debuffs. They are more like AGI Tanks. So don't think of them as a VIT tank like a PLD, think of them as an AGI tank, a Master of Illusion that avoids getting hit - and they do this well.

It doesn't matter what they are called, they are an extremely effective tank so that's what they should do. No one would invite a BLM and RDM to the PT and tell the RDM to nuke and the BLM to enfeeb now would they?

 

[Keits]

I don't know how many times our Static has hit Chain 5, but just missed Chain 6 - and kept on pulling...cause Mages still have craploads of MP. Yeah, Blink tank PTs kick ass if you know how to run them.

This is both possible AND common in a well-run PLD Tank party, also.

 

[Ecks]

Keits, the ninja in the front lines aspect doesnt bother me that much. I have played quite a few Final Fantasy games, and the way that's set up, ninja's or even the whole party for that matter are always up at the front attacking.

I just feel if anything ninja's should be made into better damage dealers, rather than tanks. I do not recall the ninja class in any other FF ever being able to tank/avoid damage simply by using an ability repeatedly to avoid damage. There have been some that had a passive abilities that gave a percentage to avoid attacks, but not a straight up negation of attacks.

Granted, with CoP, they're fixing the aoe attack resistance, its a good step. I just hope that when they make new ninjitsu spells that some of them do some damage. So that ninja's can be played in ways other than tanks.

As far as I know, that's the only way people play them currently, tanks and/or pullers.

 

[Keits]

Keits, the ninja in the front lines aspect doesnt bother me that much. I have played quite a few Final Fantasy games, and the way that's set up, ninja's or even the whole party for that matter are always up at the front attacking.

I just feel if anything ninja's should be made into better damage dealers, rather than tanks. I do not recall the ninja class in any other FF ever being able to tank/avoid damage simply by using an ability repeatedly to avoid damage. There have been some that had a passive abilities that gave a percentage to avoid attacks, but not a straight up negation of attacks.

Granted, with CoP, they're fixing the aoe attack resistance, its a good step. I just hope that when they make new ninjitsu spells that some of them do some damage. So that ninja's can be played in ways other than tanks.

As far as I know, that's the only way people play them currently, tanks and/or pullers.

You are a fool to think that NIN tanking will be somehow hurt by this. NIN tanks are here to stay. Square likes it. And the game need more tanking classes, and less damage dealers, as it is.

Again, FFXI isnt real life. So the real life definition of ninja doesnt apply here. Also, FFXI isnt a final fantasy game, much like FFTactics was not an FF game. They bear the FF name and trademarks as a selling point. And in the scope of this FF, an MMORPG, another damage class is the LAST thing we need.

 

[Ecks]

..WTF Kiets.

Yeah, Final Fantasy XI Online sure isnt a FINAL FANTASY game.. oh yeah Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Advanced, nope not FINAL FANTASY games.. oh I suppose Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicals, as unfun a game that was, isn't FINAL FANTASY game either. Hmm.. nope, they werent made by Squaresoft/Square/Square-Enix. Nope..

Hmm.. I guess Final Fantasy X-2 isnt a FINAL FANTASY game either because Final Fantasy has never had any sequels.

Oh, almost forgot about Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.. oh wait.. no.. no that wasn't a Final Fantasy, that was crap.

 

[naffenu]

..WTF Kiets.

Yeah, Final Fantasy XI Online sure isnt a FINAL FANTASY game.. oh yeah Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Advanced, nope not FINAL FANTASY games.. oh I suppose Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicals, as unfun a game that was, isn't FINAL FANTASY game either. Hmm.. nope, they werent made by Squaresoft/Square/Square-Enix. Nope..

Hmm.. I guess Final Fantasy X-2 isnt a FINAL FANTASY game either because Final Fantasy has never had any sequels.

Oh, almost forgot about Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.. oh wait.. no.. no that wasn't a Final Fantasy, that was crap.

hey ecks, I hate to break this to you, but FFXI isn't a true ff game. It's an mmo. And you can argue that its not till your blue in the face, but you're still going to be wrong FFTactics isn't a true ff game either. It's a tatics game. In the tv world, they have a name for these things, it's called "Spinoff"

Take joey for example, that new show that's not friends, but is a spinoff of it. It takes a familar character/setting and does it's own thing. Much like ff tatics and FFXI do with ff brand. :evil:

 

[Keits]

..WTF Kiets.

Yeah, Final Fantasy XI Online sure isnt a FINAL FANTASY game.. oh yeah Final Fantasy Tactics or Tactics Advanced, nope not FINAL FANTASY games.. oh I suppose Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicals, as unfun a game that was, isn't FINAL FANTASY game either. Hmm.. nope, they werent made by Squaresoft/Square/Square-Enix. Nope..

Hmm.. I guess Final Fantasy X-2 isnt a FINAL FANTASY game either because Final Fantasy has never had any sequels.

Oh, almost forgot about Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.. oh wait.. no.. no that wasn't a Final Fantasy, that was crap.

So if I make a shooting game called Final Fantasy 14: Blasters, and it had a guy on a chocobo with a gun shooting evil moogles... that would ALSO be an FF game?

The Final Fantasy games all maintain a similar presentation and gameplay system.

Final Fantasy Tactics does not.
FFXI does not.
FFT Advace does not.
FFAdventure (A secret of mana game in japan) does not (yet it carries the FF name in the US... why?)

Which sells better?

1.) A Japanese MMORPG?
2.) A Japanese MMORPG that says 'Final Fantasy' on it?

Its a fucking brand name. None of the spin offs are actually Final Fantasy games. They just use the name and trademarks as marketing tools.

FFXI or FFT arnt variations on the same known-and-loved gameplay systems and presentation.... they are their own thing. Thus, they are not FF games at all.

 

[Tyrion]

So if I make a shooting game called Final Fantasy 14: Blasters, and it had a guy on a chocobo with a gun shooting evil moogles...

Reminds me of the "Gunners Gauntlet" from Final Fantasy X-2

that would ALSO be an FF game?

Depends on how you look at it - see below.

The Final Fantasy games all maintain a similar presentation and gameplay system.

By that standard, FFT (etc) is not an FF game. However, by my standard of judgement, FFT et al ARE FF games. My standard is this:

What did Squaresoft of Japan decide?

Final Fantasy belongs to Square -- I don't give two shits about Enix, and Square's US marketing department matters even less (So the renamed Game Boy games are a nil issue to me.)

However, Square of Japan has decided that Final Fantasy XI, Final Fantasy MQ, Final Fantasy Tactics, and any I've forgotten are Final Fantasy games simply by giving them the name Final Fantasy.

Also, this argument seems reminicent of the arguments about the more recent Final Fantasy games not "feeling" like Final Fantasy. All "Final Fantasy" denotes to me is: An excellent RPG, well-polished in all respects, with a few key elements (Chocobos, Moogles, Cid, etc) thrown in."

Anyhow, my two gil.

 

[FlaruWuru]

Wow Tyrion, you really caught me off guard!

Anyways... Here's what I think...

THEY'RE ALL DIFFERENT!!! They just share some elements between one another. Some are dropped altogether, others are recycled constantly, and some just drop out and back in from time to time. Heck, FF:MQ did recycle the Crystals theme, so in a way it is "worthy" of the Final Fantasy name, just not worthy of the "good game" label.

And the next "real" Final Fantasy has been said that it'll do away with random encounters, that you'll be fighting the mobs much like in a MMORPG, only it'll be an *offline* game! Does that mean the death of FF? HELL NO!!! It'll just mean you'll have an all new battle system, just like when round-based became turn-based, and then changed to the ATB system of late, with FFX changing it back to turn-based and FFX-2 going back to ATB.

The system did change from FF to FF. I'm so glad I didn't have to Draw any magics after FF8. And I miss the customability of Final Fantasy Tactics. But like Tyrion said, each FF is designed by the same company, which is the one that decides where the game evolves.

And maybe Square didn't design the NIN to be a blink-tank, maybe they had in mind that a NIN would be more useful in a 3-person party fighting VTs instead of IT++++s. But in any case, they sure can decide to nerf NIN's Utsusemi totally by deciding it only works on mobs that detect by sight, and then enpower another ability to compensate the loss. It's their creation, and their updates reflect their intentions. They are lowering the NIN's blink-tanking's efficiency, but not by so much that it warrants finding a new role for NINs. So to me, they're acknowledging their current role, while trying to balance things out between jobs.

NINs are what I call "dodge-tanks". They have Triple-Blink, Slow, Paralyze and Blind in their arsenal for a reason, although the last three could always be dispensed by a RDM in a well-rounded party. They could have been designed to be damage dealers through throwing weapons, but the player-driven economy has decided otherwise. As it is, NINs are most easily and efficiently played and accepted as tanks.

 

[Keits]

Take every instance where I said "Not an FF game" and replace it with "Not a traditional FF game".

All 11 of the Traditional FF games play and are presented in a very similar fasion. All other games bearing the FF name that deviate from this are SPINOFFS.

The point I mean to make with this is that comparing classes from Traditional FFs to how they act in a Tactics or MMO game is pretty silly.

 

[Tyrion]

The point I mean to make with this is that comparing classes from Traditional FFs to how they act in a Tactics or MMO game is pretty silly.

It's an interesting theoretical discussion if nothing else. ^_^

 

[Kelsilv]

what makes any FF game "traditional", though? 3 or 4 characters who stand in a line in turn-based battle? Because that's really the only difference I see between something like FF8 and FF Tactics.

FF XI has the story, the summons, the limit breaks, Cid. What more does an FF need to be "traditional"?

 

[Ecks]

I think a more proper description of what Kiets considers "tradition FF games" would be to call them simply traditional rpgs, why, because thats all the "traditional FF games" Kiets its talking about are. There are crap loads of "traditional rpgs". Hell.. I love a lot of them. Infact I kinda prefer turn based to nonstop combat in my rpgs, gives you time to decide what you want to do.


Anywho.. I guess this is pretty much dying now, s'okay, it came it saw it kinda dwindled on.

 

[Keits]

A traditional FF has, as I said two or three times already, Similar Presentation/Gameflow to the 1st FF.

Yes, this means characters that stand in a line and take turns.
Yes, this means a single player story.
Yes, this means exploration of a world map, dugeons, and towns.
Yes, this means a similar game progression.
No, this does not mean Tactical Combat on a game-board style grid.
No, this does not mean an MMO with real time combat and a back-seat story.
No, this does not mean Cid, some Crystals, and yellow birds.

Take the FF namesakes (chocobos, moogles, and cid) out of FFT, or FFXI, and there is NOTHING there that makes it a traditional FF game. You wouldnt even guess they were 'FF' games if square hadnt stuck the name on there to help sell it.

 

[FlaruWuru]

Take the FF namesakes (chocobos, moogles, and cid) out of FFT, or FFXI, and there is NOTHING there that makes it a traditional FF game. You wouldnt even guess they were 'FF' games if square hadnt stuck the name on there to help sell it.

Add to the list the jobs, spells, abilities, status effects, bestiary, weapon names, summoned monsters... I'm sure I'm missing a few things that make up the Final Fantasy staplemarks.

 

[Theorist]

I think his point is, they could have given all this stuff new names very very easily a no one would know the difference. The problem is, no one would be playing this game either...

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

A traditional FF has, as I said two or three times already, Similar Presentation/Gameflow to the 1st FF.

Yes, this means characters that stand in a line and take turns.
Yes, this means a single player story.
Yes, this means exploration of a world map, dugeons, and towns.
Yes, this means a similar game progression.
No, this does not mean Tactical Combat on a game-board style grid.
No, this does not mean an MMO with real time combat and a back-seat story.
No, this does not mean Cid, some Crystals, and yellow birds.

Take the FF namesakes (chocobos, moogles, and cid) out of FFT, or FFXI, and there is NOTHING there that makes it a traditional FF game. You wouldnt even guess they were 'FF' games if square hadnt stuck the name on there to help sell it.

But without these things, even traditional FF games would be just generic RPG's. I do have to agree with Keits that FFXI isnt really a traditional FF game, at least in the fact that its not a single player RPG. But then again, what else is "traditional" about final fantasies? Story lines and characters dont cross over from one game to another, battle systems change frequently, magic/ability systems change. From the things Keits listed as things that define the traditional FF game, he could have just named any RPG out there. One thing that defines FF is inovation, no two games are very much like each other.

The simple fact that Square-Enix says it is a Final Fantasy game makes it one. They own the trademark, so its their word agains ours. Sure, the FF name may be a money magnet, but again it is their property. The spin-off games do use the final fantasy name to help them sell, but who are we to say they aren't real final fantasy games? Did we have any say in the game design process? Did we come up with the concept? Did we program it? No, no, and no.

-Ham :shock:

 

[FlaruWuru]

Fun tidbits:

Final Fantasy Adventure was the first of the Seiken Densetsu series in Japan, which we know here under the name of the Mana series.

Final Fantasy Legends were the precursors of the Saga line of games, of which we were denied the SNES period.

Final Fantasy : Mystical Quest was crap. It was most likely meant as an introductory game to the RPG genre. A bit late in my opinion.

Final Fantasy IX is somewhat of a sequel to Final Fantasy I. I won't go in details about that, but whoever played both will understand.

Final Fantasy XII will have the same world name and races as Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, which in turn had the same world name of Ivalice than the original Final Fantasy Tactics.

There are obvious spin-offs of Final Fantasy not bearing the glossy nametag. Check out Chocobo's Dungeon 2 and Chocobo Racing on the PlayStation.