A Message to Keits.

[Keits]

Then tell me, why did you buy this game. Have you ever played any mmo before? No? Is this your first one? Why did you buy it, because it looked interesting? Because it had chocobos and moogles and ff type spells in an MMO? Probably. There is a defining thing in all RPG's. You stand in goddamn line, and you hit things. That's a given. If you can't understand that, then you are retarded. The only thing DIFFERENT about Final fantasy, is that they have their own spells and little icons (being moogles and chocobo's etc.) I could argue with you about this until I'm blue in the face, but I see you're obviously not going to understand it. This game sells, because it's ff. That's all. Do me a favor, and try out eq, and tell me this game is RADICALLY different from it.

The only point you are making is that Final Fantasy 11 is an MMORPG and not an RPG. I agree with you.

Final Fantasy is NOT a genre of games. It is a series of games; but more accuratly it is a trademark owned by Square-Enix. Games in a series dont have to follow the same rules as the ones that came before them. It is up to Square to determine what is a Final Fantasy game and what isnt. Could Square have taken the final fantasy elements out and called it something else? Sure, but look at other final fantasies and this same rule applies.

You say take away the elements that make it a Final Fantasy game and agree that its not one... well no shit! Take away final fantasy elements from the other games and you end up with regular RPGs. Despite the fact that this is the only game in the series to not be an RPG doesnt make it not part of the series. Its like saying that Shakespeares commedies arent really Shakespeare because they arent tragedies.

Again, if your argument is that it isnt an RPG you are correct, but that isnt your argument. You are taking an abstract term and trying to say it is a genre in itself. Look at the command and conquer series, is renegade a command and conquer? Look at warcraft, is WoW a warcraft game? I'd have to say yes. They are not, however, RTS games.

And about the insults Naff... all it does is show that your argument is weak. You cant face facts that you are wrong, so you insult me... good job.

-Ham :shock: [/b]

The word 'Traditional' is being left out. Xenosaga and the like are very much akin to a traditional FF game. Everquest and its kin are not. FFXI is kin to EQ, not to other FF games. Much in the same way that FFT is kin to Ogre Battle, not to other FF games.

You cant just make a game in a different genre and say its a traditional part of the series. Its what is known as a 'spinoff'.

Ham: You are officially retarded to state that the there was dramatic change in the gameplay/presentation of the traditional FF games. You call 'Active Time' a step forward? All 'Active Time' is, is that instead of the game pausing when its your turn so that you can select your commands, it now does not. You must select them while other turn guages (hidden or shown) charge. This does not bust genres, or even change the core gameplay element. Not even close. Nor doesn changing how you learn or store magic.

A traditional FF game is defined by its gameplay/presentation. Games like Final Fantasy Tactics, or FFXI, do not adhere to this structure. If FFXII also deviates, then I will also say that it is not a traditional FF game.

I dont know what else to say... You can cry about who made and named the game all you want, but a sane and rational (read: non-fanboy) person would see clearly that FFXI and FFT are not even close to being FF games, in the traditional sense.

I mean... i had some respect going for you Ham, but you come off like a real moron in those posts (and you sound like the fannest-of-fanboys too).

 

[FlaruWuru]

You base tradition on gameplay, I base tradition on environment. Of course we won't see eye to eye.

And by the way, this fanniest fanboy thinks losing your respect is hardly a loss. Seeing you based your last post on most of my arguments.

 

[Kirutaru]

Hahahahaha! You said "fanniest!" You fanny-fanboy! Woo~ that's a good one. See you around, fanny.

 

[Keits]

You base tradition on gameplay, I base tradition on environment. Of course we won't see eye to eye.

And by the way, this fanniest fanboy thinks losing your respect is hardly a loss. Seeing you based your last post on most of my arguments.

"Ergheiz: God Bless the Ring" was actually "Final Fantasy 7: Arena Battle", right?

By your view, was Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (a film) also a Traditional FF Game?

In the world of video games, gameplay the medium on which we measure experience. Environment is a veil pulled over the experience to give it flavor. This game may taste like Final Fantasy (because of its Cid/Chocobo/Moogle shaped marshmallows), but in reality, its got the same Whole-Grain-Bits that the Everquest has. As we all know, a cerial made entirely of marshmallows (the flavor) isnt much of a cerial at all.

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

The word 'Traditional' is being left out. Xenosaga and the like are very much akin to a traditional FF game. Everquest and its kin are not. FFXI is kin to EQ, not to other FF games. Much in the same way that FFT is kin to Ogre Battle, not to other FF games.

You cant just make a game in a different genre and say its a traditional part of the series. Its what is known as a 'spinoff'.

Ham: You are officially retarded to state that the there was dramatic change in the gameplay/presentation of the traditional FF games. You call 'Active Time' a step forward? All 'Active Time' is, is that instead of the game pausing when its your turn so that you can select your commands, it now does not. You must select them while other turn guages (hidden or shown) charge. This does not bust genres, or even change the core gameplay element. Not even close. Nor doesn changing how you learn or store magic.

A traditional FF game is defined by its gameplay/presentation. Games like Final Fantasy Tactics, or FFXI, do not adhere to this structure. If FFXII also deviates, then I will also say that it is not a traditional FF game.

I dont know what else to say... You can cry about who made and named the game all you want, but a sane and rational (read: non-fanboy) person would see clearly that FFXI and FFT are not even close to being FF games, in the traditional sense.

I mean... i had some respect going for you Ham, but you come off like a real moron in those posts (and you sound like the fannest-of-fanboys too).

Ya, I totally agree that FF11 and FFT and whatever else aren't traditional final fantasies in the sence that they arent single player RPG's. That is very easy to see to anyone (even the fannest-of-fanboys :wink: ) I'm not disagreeing with that at all; what I am disagreeing with is when you say they arent Final Fantasy games at all. The fact is that they are a type of final fantasy game, not in the sence that they are single player RPG's but in the sence that they were designed with the "spirit" of previous final fantasies in mind.

I dont recall saying that active time battle was a drastic change in gameplay... but I think that other things, such as magic systems, the job system, and being able to switch party members on the fly were drastic changes. True, none of these make the games into different genres or anything, but as far as making one game different from the rest, I think they do just that.

If you were only arguing that FF11 isnt a traditional RPG then I agree with you 100%. But I cant just not say anything when people claim that FF11 isnt a Final Fantasy game at all. It was an MMORPG created with the standbys of Final Fantasy in mind, because it has these elements I'd have to say that it is a non-traditional Final Fantasy game.

So anyways Keits I hope I cleared things up, and if I didnt well then it's no skin off my nose. Any moronic statement I made was probably something I didnt support, or that you didnt personally agree with. Mostly I agree with you; the only difference is that you seem to think that there is nothing in FF11 that makes it a final fantasy game, whereas I do. I think we both agree that it isnt traditional, I think you're right, most people wouldnt think it is.

But anyways, keep whatever opinion you want of me... I dont really care if you find every post I make and follow it up with "nobody likes you." I know you only post here to make yourself feel better by yelling at people annonymously (you stated it yourself) and that's fine, everyone needs an outlet. Besides I dont hate you, as I stated I mostly agree with you.

-Ham :shock:

 

[Keits]

The fact is that they are a type of final fantasy game, not in the sence that they are single player RPG's but in the sence that they were designed with the "spirit" of previous final fantasies in mind.

This is called a spinoff.

Spinoffs exist for one reason. This reason is not:

A.) To carry on the 'spirit' of the origional.

This reason is:

B.) Marketability.

FFXI is not a Final Fantasy game. It does bear the FF name, cid, moogles, chocobos, etc... but it is not a Final Fantasy game. It is a spinoff that exploits the notoriety of the series for profit. This has been the statement from the start.

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

The fact is that they are a type of final fantasy game, not in the sence that they are single player RPG's but in the sence that they were designed with the "spirit" of previous final fantasies in mind.

This is called a spinoff.

Spinoffs exist for one reason. This reason is not:

A.) To carry on the 'spirit' of the origional.

This reason is:

B.) Marketability.

FFXI is not a Final Fantasy game. It does bear the FF name, cid, moogles, chocobos, etc... but it is not a Final Fantasy game. It is a spinoff that exploits the notoriety of the series for profit. This has been the statement from the start.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you or anything Keits, but clarify something for me: if "It does bear the FF name, cid, moogles, chocobos, etc" then what makes any game after ff1 a final fantasy game? Arent they then all spinoffs of the origional? Spin-off is pretty vague, especially when talking about final fantasy since the sequals arent continuations of the origional. Essentially, each sequal carried on the spirit of the origional (or were marketable since the first did so well), they just did it within the same genre.

The only thing you and I seem to disagree with is that a final fantasy game has to be a single player RPG, and judging by other people's responces, both of us have points. I happen to think there is more to a final fantasy game than its genre, you dont. Given the fact that it is an ambiguous topic, I'm not going to say you are wrong. I just think we believe different things.

-Ham :shock:

 

[FlaruWuru]

Ergheiz, part of the series or a spin-off? How 'bout a cameo appearance by FF characters? Much like in Kingdom Hearts? Or FFT? FFVII characters seem extremely popular.

I admit for the movie, it was an entirely technological environment without any native mysticism. The mystical part came through the part of the invaders. So to me, it didn't feel like it was part of the same universe

FFVII, FFVIII and FFX felt less of Final Fantasy titles to me as they're set in an entirely advanced, or post-advanced civilization. FFVIII the least, as not only the setting, but the whole system was far off from what I was traditionally accustomed to: earning a wage, modifying weapons, no armor whatsoever, monsters getting stronger as you level, storing and crafting spells...

Take away the numbers. Put in titles. It's not a series anymore, it's a string of single titles. They all share common characteristics left and right. Some will include certain titles because it shares the same general universe. Others will exclude them because the system doesn't follow a more traditional feel.

I have my opinion based on game setting technalities. You have yours based on game engine technalities. And Square has theirs, based on marketing technicalities. I don't have to like what you like. You don't have to like what I like. And we both don't have to like all titles bearing the Final Fantasy name or elements just because it's named as such. But I do like this game, and I like how familiar it feels with older titles they've made, including their FFIX and FFT.

To me, the label "Final Fantasy" represents something different than to you. It's all arbitral. Even you have no right to claim you hold the undisputed and final truth, the end-all of all arguments. The label doesn't belong to me, nor to you. It's a commercial trademark.

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

Ergheiz, part of the series or a spin-off? How 'bout a cameo appearance by FF characters? Much like in Kingdom Hearts? Or FFT? FFVII characters seem extremely popular.

I admit for the movie, it was an entirely technological environment without any native mysticism. The mystical part came through the part of the invaders. So to me, it didn't feel like it was part of the same universe

FFVII, FFVIII and FFX felt less of Final Fantasy titles to me as they're set in an entirely advanced, or post-advanced civilization. FFVIII the least, as not only the setting, but the whole system was far off from what I was traditionally accustomed to: earning a wage, modifying weapons, no armor whatsoever, monsters getting stronger as you level, storing and crafting spells...

Take away the numbers. Put in titles. It's not a series anymore, it's a string of single titles. They all share common characteristics left and right. Some will include certain titles because it shares the same general universe. Others will exclude them because the system doesn't follow a more traditional feel.

I have my opinion based on game setting technalities. You have yours based on game engine technalities. And Square has theirs, based on marketing technicalities. I don't have to like what you like. You don't have to like what I like. And we both don't have to like all titles bearing the Final Fantasy name or elements just because it's named as such. But I do like this game, and I like how familiar it feels with older titles they've made, including their FFIX and FFT.

To me, the label "Final Fantasy" represents something different than to you. It's all arbitral. Even you have no right to claim you hold the undisputed and final truth, the end-all of all arguments. The label doesn't belong to me, nor to you. It's a commercial trademark.

Agreed, very well put

-Ham :shock:

 

[Keits]

"It does bear the FF name, cid, moogles, chocobos, etc" then what makes any game after ff1 a final fantasy game?

As stated MANY times: The gameflow and presentation.

NOTE: Presentation does not refer to (Cid,Moogle,W/e). Presentation refers to the way in which the game is presented, and is part of the game's flow.

Ex. Explore Town > See Cutscene > (A.)Leave Town > Random Encounters > Turn Based Comat > Rewards > Random Encounters > Rewards > Dungeon > Random Encounters > Rewards > Boss > Field > Random Encounters > Town > See Cutscene > To (A.)

Hundreds of games do the above in a very similar fashion. Those games are kin to traditional FF games. A Tactics, or an MMO, again, are not kin to Traditional FF style games.

If you are argueing anything other than this point, stop. The 'universe' in which a game takes place does not matter in this context.

Ergheiz an ff game? More like a cameo appearance from some FF characters...

FFXI is an FF game? More like a cameo appearance from the moogles, chocobos, and a fuckstick named Cid. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN COMON HERE.

 

[FlaruWuru]

Ergheiz an ff game? More like a cameo appearance from some FF characters...

FFXI is an FF game? More like a cameo appearance from the moogles, chocobos, and a fuckstick named Cid. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN COMON HERE.

Now I am justified in calling you in a bigot.

Look at the bestiary. Are some monsters sounding familiar? Bombs? Coeurls? Cockatrices? Goblins? Malboros? Of course they sound familiar, they are part of a lot of other Final Fantasies.

Look at the environment. What is the level of technology? Bastok is the most advanced town of the three. See any computers? Anything that feels post-renaissance? Strange, that's what FF1 to 5 had. FF6 and FF7 had those high technologies in selected locales. FF9 definitely felt like that, and FFX was a world where machina was forbidden.

Look at the roles the PCs play. They're based on jobs: WHM, BLM, WAR, PLD... FF1, FF3, FF4(fixed), FF5, FF9 and FFX-2 had those.

Look at the naming of objects, spells and races. Yah, there's a Cid, chocobos, moogles, a Save the Queen, Fire/Ice/Lightning/Aero/Gravity.

Look at the system. Sure, we don't stand in party formation. But in a way, we do have front and back rows. Spells have a casting time. They conveniently did away with having to input Fight every two seconds.

Look at the abilities. Those derive from various past titles too.

Of course it's not the same game. But FFVIII is obviously not the same game as FFIV, except for the fact that both are console RPGs and the company sure won't be re-inventing the whole interface if it already works. One is in a medieval setting, giving characters fixed jobs. The other is in a futuristic world, with everyone gaining power through Guardian Forces.

Obviously Keits, you are trying to string the games together by finding a constant. You've found one and you're stuck on it like flies to honey. You are OBVIOUSLY NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT OTHERS MIGHT FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT WHAT "FINAL FANTASY" MEANS! You keep telling people to ignore EVERYTHING BUT the genre, or fuck off. That makes you a bigot.

You exclude titles because of genre. I exclude titles because of theme. Does that make me more of an idiot than you? At least I'm admitting that others will exclude titles based on other fan criteria (and obviously, you're not working for Square, playing their product, and arguing strongly about it here, so you're a fan, although not necessarely a fan-boy). While you're constantly coming back in order to impose your views.

 

[Lokkin]

my favourite quote from the strong bad toons (that i was so amazingly thrown at a couple of days, thank you man! so many hours of viewing pleasure!) would have to be

DELETED!

hey sculli this topic is losing interest fast

 

[Tyrion]

Hmm, for once I disagree with THE KEITS.

Anyhow, on another note:

"Ergheiz: God Bless the Ring" was actually "Final Fantasy 7: Arena Battle", right?

You know what pissed me off about that game? "Hey, we're working with namco. They own the Soul Calibur engine! Instead of making a Soul Calibur clone with FF characters... lets make our own shitty engine instead! Brilliant!"

:x

 

[masterorion]

Ergheiz an ff game? More like a cameo appearance from some FF characters...

FFXI is an FF game? More like a cameo appearance from the moogles, chocobos, and a fuckstick named Cid. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN COMON HERE.

Now I am justified in calling you in a bigot.

Look at the bestiary. Are some monsters sounding familiar? Bombs? Coeurls? Cockatrices? Goblins? Malboros? Of course they sound familiar, they are part of a lot of other Final Fantasies.

Look at the environment. What is the level of technology? Bastok is the most advanced town of the three. See any computers? Anything that feels post-renaissance? Strange, that's what FF1 to 5 had. FF6 and FF7 had those high technologies in selected locales. FF9 definitely felt like that, and FFX was a world where machina was forbidden.

Look at the roles the PCs play. They're based on jobs: WHM, BLM, WAR, PLD... FF1, FF3, FF4(fixed), FF5, FF9 and FFX-2 had those.

Look at the naming of objects, spells and races. Yah, there's a Cid, chocobos, moogles, a Save the Queen, Fire/Ice/Lightning/Aero/Gravity.

Look at the system. Sure, we don't stand in party formation. But in a way, we do have front and back rows. Spells have a casting time. They conveniently did away with having to input Fight every two seconds.

Look at the abilities. Those derive from various past titles too.

Of course it's not the same game. But FFVIII is obviously not the same game as FFIV, except for the fact that both are console RPGs and the company sure won't be re-inventing the whole interface if it already works. One is in a medieval setting, giving characters fixed jobs. The other is in a futuristic world, with everyone gaining power through Guardian Forces.

Obviously Keits, you are trying to string the games together by finding a constant. You've found one and you're stuck on it like flies to honey. You are OBVIOUSLY NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT OTHERS MIGHT FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT WHAT "FINAL FANTASY" MEANS! You keep telling people to ignore EVERYTHING BUT the genre, or fuck off. That makes you a bigot.

You exclude titles because of genre. I exclude titles because of theme. Does that make me more of an idiot than you? At least I'm admitting that others will exclude titles based on other fan criteria (and obviously, you're not working for Square, playing their product, and arguing strongly about it here, so you're a fan, although not necessarely a fan-boy). While you're constantly coming back in order to impose your views.

/cheer
great point flaru

 

[Tyrion]

A STORY

One day, a man named Jack made an awesome hamburger. This hamburger was similar to other hamburgers in many regards, but the quality of the ingrediencts was much higher than in most other hamburgers.

However, this was not Jack's biggest secret: He created a special sauce that had a unique taste that was his alone. Any time one ate a hamburger, one could taste whether it was made by Jack.

Jack's hamburgers were so good that he opened a restaurant to serve them. The restaurant was so wildly successful that he so opened a chain of them nationwide - "Jack's Burgers" was a household word.
Everybody ate Jack's hamburgers and loved them. However, Jack decided to try something new. He made a chicken patty sandwich, and put his same attention to quality into it, as well as his special sauce.

There was much debate among the academics of the world as to whether this new chicken sandwich really fit into Jack's restaurant, because it used chicken, not beef. Some thought the change was blasphemy.
Some pointed out that the term "hamburger" was misleading, as the sandwiches used beef, not ham. Some pointed out that Jack's hamburgers were all somewhat different - some of his hamburgers had lettuce, some did not. Some had pickles, cheese, tomatoes, onions, bacon, and mustard, or one or more of these or different ingredients.

Others pointed out that there were other restaurants that offered chicken sandwiches, and that wasn't this new sandwich more similar to these other chicken sandwiches? To which some replied, no, because these chicken sandwiches have the special sauce and are of higher quality, making them more like Jack's hamburgers!

Tempers flared, voices were raised. Time passed, and soon the country was on the brink of civil war, genocide, and an age of darkness.

Throughout it all, Jack himself was rather quiet, until one of the academics had a flash of insight and thought to actually ask Jack. It turned out that of all the academics, none of them actually knew Jack.

Eventually, through trial and error, they managed to find Jack and ask him:
"Does this new sandwich really belong here? It's not a traditional hamburger, does it really belong among Jack's?"

Jack thought for a moment, scratched his chin, and replied:
"Well, I made them, I put the same care into them, and I added my special sauce, the taste you folks know as the taste of Jack's Hamburgers. I guess you could call it a 'Chickenburger' - a Jack's Hamburger made with Chicken."

The academics were astounded. Several dropped dead from strokes on the spot, so mind-blowing was the idea - but Jack wasn't finished.

"You know, though, does it really matter what meat there is to the sandwich, as long as you can tell it's a Jack's Burger? Also, where the hell do you get off trying to decide if belongs in my restaurant? It's my restaurant, my sandwich, and my right to decide."

The academics discussed this, and realized that Jack was right. They truly hadn't known Jack. They apologized.

Jack turned away and headed back into the restaurant. Holding the door open, he asked, "Is anybody hungry?"

~The End~

 

[Sculli]

Beautiful story ..., I wept ...

 

[ThisIsHamburgler]

You forgot the part about the little taru that stopped by and stole all the burglers.... 8)

-Ham :shock:

 

[Keits]

I will quote myself:

Hundreds of games do the above in a very similar fashion. Those games are kin to traditional FF games. A Tactics, or an MMO, again, are not kin to Traditional FF style games.

If you are argueing anything other than this point, stop. The 'universe' in which a game takes place does not matter in this context.

You are 'argueing' in a completely different context than I am.

Furthermore, my statement about FFXI 'only' including cameos from moggles, chocos, and cid, was meant to entail that FFXI is basically a cameo of the FF universe in a non-ff game. Much like FFTactics.

Your arguements arnt even acknowlaging the context of my statements. In the world of video games, You dont say "Hey, that was a great game because I like the moogles so much". You say "Hey, the gameplay was great". The veil pulled over it DOES NOT DEFINE a style of gameplay or presentation that I am using to illustrate my point here.

FFXI is not an FF game, by the standard of GAMEPLAY, which is core to VIDEO GAMES.

 

[Tyrion]

Well, not to argue off to the side of your point, but you're arguing that "With X elements removed, there's nothing that resembles an FF game" where what I'm saying X is the core of what FF is. Or something.

 

[masterorion]

what IF the first ff was a mm game and all other ff were single player only. would that make ffxi an untraditional ff style.

just what really makes ffxi untraditional? it has almost all the same features as the one originall ff. the only thing that it doesnt have is random encounters(that i can think of atm). of course ffxi is not the same exact game and yes its a different type of game but its generally the same. people sit in front of the ah all day long and if you were to play ff1 you have the same abiltiy to just sit there in the town and do nothing. ffxi is an interactive ff and if that is what makes it untraditional, well...thats really stupid.