A mild discussion on Balance

[Duffman]

...with a minor focus on BLM since it's in the news lately...


My intention is to get a few things off my chest while keeping
this away from any flames. I'd like to keep it out of the flameboard
if it's possible. Constructive discussion if you can.


It's my opinion that a lot of missions, quests, BCNMs, ENMs, anything
fun is out of balance; to an extent. More to the point, some job
combinations with regards to these events are out of balance. I
understand that keeping things in balance must be a terrible chore for
the developers. Also, the way we look at the various jobs and
implementation of these jobs causes out of balance issues.
My opinion is fueled by the following events:
- Want/need an event
- Search Players, respond to shouts, browse forums for events/members
- Find it's xxxx job only, and about 3~18 of them


I'm perfectly ok with 6~18 xxx job only and I understand why you want to
do this. It's so fast, efficient, and damn near 100% winnable that it's
almost like you used a cheat code. I get it. However, that seems very
strongly that either the xxx job or the xxx event or both are out of balance
in a severe way.

I want to use BLM just as a mild example since you guys are facing rumors
of the "N" word. ("nerf") I personally do not like adjustments of the
kind that limits any job's "awesomeness". "Awesomeness" is now a word; I declare
it. If the xxx event is out of balance, then it can be repaired easily.
If the xxx job is out of balance, well that is where the issues come into play.

For the record, I hope they make your job cooler than ever (BLM). I don't
want to see you get nerfed. What CAN be adjusted to allow the other 17 jobs out
there (counting the new 3) to allow them to participate in the much needed/wanted
event?

Solutions:
- (best) Let everything stay the same as it is today and MAKE YOUR OWN PARTY.
- adjust a job (not a great choice)
- reevaluate all events for balance issues (sounds like a chore to me)
- anything I haven't thought of

I am so guilty of putting a search comment for a mission/quest/event and a flag up
and just sitting around like a lump waiting for an invite. Or trolling through
L.Jueno hoping for the proper shout to appear. I even did this as a WHM when leveling
my WHM(subjob). I always sort of seen the WHM as the commander of the party; possibly
unfairly so.

So, I/You can create my/your own parties which will definately work, or maybe a
change is in order? Plus, SE and ourselves will have to wonder what balance will be
like with the addition of the 3 new jobs.



Closing Thoughts:

I'm not sure I've said anything new. I apoligize for that if it sounds like a dead
horse. It's just frustrating to see the mindset of "toss more xxx at the problem" and
not the diversity we've seen in the past. I'll try to do my part and start my own
parties but I wonder what our game will be like in the future.

As a BST71, SAM62, RNG40, I've been hit with nerfs enough times already. I REALLY hope
they leave you BLM's alone and any other jobs. I hope this can be fixed in a different
manner.

---da Duff.

 

[hellstorm]

wow ninely worded and i agree

 

[Bajaratt]

You're not really addressing any balancing issues; you're saying it would be best to just leave things alone. Which if there is an imbalance(there is), you're not doing anything to solve it, you're just letting it continue.

 

[Duffman]

That's true and I'm sorry that I can't do anything about it. I'm not on the SE
developement team. I'm not even sure what can or will be done. In a lot of
games out there, player balance was always an issue to contend with. Single
player games were easier to balance but the issues were there as well.

As players, we have the option of just "Doing nothing". I'm just trying to figure
out what we can do? How much power do we have to overcome this?
We can make our own parties and stop being a Lump is one way. I'm very
guilty of being a lump waiting for an invite. Another way is to conciously make
an effort to create diverse groups, that could possibly happen to a small percent
but if the 2~18 xxx of one job works so well that if feels like cheating then
it's likely not to happen.

Dunno man, I guess not much we as players can do but watch other jobs
have all the fun; level that job and polute that population more; or make our
own parties.

 

[Elemmire]

how is there an imbalance exactly? A BLM only can do damage. Solo-ing for them isn't easy (and most likely never happens). Sure they can manaburn somethings but most of those those things can be done with most jobs anyways.. and if there is a problem like KS30 or DM... hmm what could we do to make it not so manaburnable.. hmmmm. I believe Firestreak came up with this "let's move them apart so you can't nuke em all down in one shot? D:" AMZING!!!! solved..

There isn't much of an imbalance that I can see.. I guess if you don't like a BLM doing so much damage but forget they die upon getting hit pretty much.. well.. so be it.

 

[onions]

how is there an imbalance exactly? A BLM only can do damage. Solo-ing for them isn't easy (and most likely never happens).

I heard Sea (Sky to?) is awesome for soloing BLMs.

I'm willing to bet a BLM can solo faster experience than SAM/RNG/add job here. Sleep probably helps too. Never played BLM myself so this is all guessing.

That "BLM only does DPS and can't do anything else" line is baloney. "DRK only does DPS and can't do anything else" as well, only DRK does way less damage than a BLM and gives the mob way too much TP. Broken TP system anyone?

That being said, I like the Skillchain > MB system FFXI has. It just favors one job. And maybe MBs aren't needed as much as they should be?

 

[Etdaen]

Currently I'm a level 71 BLM, so I guess take what i say with a grain of salt. lol. I think that imbalance is an important factor if the game itself... if every job was supposed to be the same, they wouldn't have given you 15 choices. Each job has their strength and weakness (imbalance) built right in. I mean, take DRK for example, they hit like a truck (ideally) but can't take hits for crap, and miss a lot. Sure there's gear to fix those issues, but its an inherent design flaw in the job. Same goes to BLM. BLM's have an incredible magic damage output.. but paper-thin defenses... I just think that those strength's and weaknesses were built into the system for a reason, and although I agree that exploiting them is wrong, to take those strengths away would leave 15 jobs with weaknesses only...

I dont want to be misunderstood here, I am against the 18 blm DM, and the Manaburns... I've had maybe 2 manaburn pts on my way to 71, and i didn't really like it all that much, I"m just saying to take away the very essence of being a blm, the nukes, would be like taking away Curing ability from a whm.. because its "Too strong".

 

[Elemmire]

I heard Sea (Sky to?) is awesome for soloing BLMs.

I'm willing to bet a BLM can solo faster experience than SAM/RNG/add job here. Sleep probably helps too. Never played BLM myself so this is all guessing.

That "BLM only does DPS and can't do anything else" line is baloney. "DRK only does DPS and can't do anything else" as well, only DRK does way less damage than a BLM and gives the mob way too much TP. Broken TP system anyone?

That being said, I like the Skillchain > MB system FFXI has. It just favors one job. And maybe MBs aren't needed as much as they should be?

and I assure you that there are several other places another job can solo fine (or NMs) and the BLM will get pwned. And a BLM's nuke does give the mob TP.

 

[onions]

and I assure you that there are several other places another job can solo fine (or NMs) and the BLM will get pwned. And a BLM's nuke does give the mob TP.

You missed my point, you said BLM can't solo very easily. A RNG can't solo very easily (probably worse than a BLM). A SAM can't solo easily, etc. Can a RNG or SAM do as much damage as a BLM? For 90% of mobs... no.

DMG to TP ratio is f'ed. 6 BLMs doing 5,000 damage will give the mob a lot less TP than 6 melees doing the same amount and kill the mob faster.

The fact is BLM damage > melee damage, why even level a DD melee when a BLM is favored 90% of time? Thats imbalance.

 

[Legomyeggo]

Off with their heads

 

[Courtney]

and I assure you that there are several other places another job can solo fine (or NMs) and the BLM will get pwned. And a BLM's nuke does give the mob TP.

But their Damage/TP is unrivalled in the game.

One of the selling points of FFXI is the number of different jobs that can be levelled. This is wasted however, if only 3-4 of the 15 (soon to be 18) jobs are usable in the majority of the games activities.

While there is any difference in jobs, it's not possible to balance them completely. About half of the jobs in the game are damage dealing jobs though, and about half of the people in a party or alliance are there to do damage.

It isn't healthy for the game if all of the damage dealers are of a single job, when there are multiple DD jobs available. All of the people who levelled DD jobs don't get to contribute, which doesn't keep them playing.

 

[Duffman]

You bring up a good point about all jobs are inherantly designed with imbalance out of the box.
Then Someone else brought up the word "Exploited".


The biggest exploit that I know of involved BLMs. That was the exploit where you can go to sea
and get chains until your arms fell off. I think I saw screenies of chain# 300+ and heard of
some higher. I bet no BLMs or paper armor were harmed in that!



It should be balanced in the effect of each job is a member of the game Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Individually, each member of Rock,Paper,Scissors are imbalanced. As a DIVERSE team, they are more
balanced. I'm sorry that's a good analogy but I can't make it fit well in the FFXI universe.
Individually xxx job and race for that matter has a downfall and a strong point. As a diverse team,
as one entity (The PARTY), they are more balanced.

An unbalanced event, taking DM as the example someone used is an exploit of using many individually
imbalanced jobs of one type into a team to exploit the event. Yes a BLM has paperthin armor, No
i've not completed DM yet. (please invite? heh.) I'm willing to bet if the 18 or so BLM's nuke fast
and hard, then a lot of them will avoid getting killed; thus eliminating the paper armor arguement.

If you our any job wants to do an all xxx party, that's ok by me. I've been in many all BST parties
myself. I like doing it and I enjoy it. I still think that by doing that, I'm exploiting "Tails of Woe"
and "Under Observation" and while exploiting those as all BST, I'm denying a chance to let other jobs
into my party and get a shot at these BCNMs. I understand the issue and I'm guilty of it too. If I
was a BLM, MNK, RNG, or whatever, I'd be involved in those particular xxxjobs events.

I still think there are severe balance issues that need to be dealt with AND I think they can be
addressed without Nerfing any job whatsoever.

 

[onions]

But their Damage/TP is unrivalled in the game.

One of the selling points of FFXI is the number of different jobs that can be levelled. This is wasted however, if only 3-4 of the 15 (soon to be 18) jobs are usable in the majority of the games activities.

While there is any difference in jobs, it's not possible to balance them completely. About half of the jobs in the game are damage dealing jobs though, and about half of the people in a party or alliance are there to do damage.

It isn't healthy for the game if all of the damage dealers are of a single job, when there are multiple DD jobs available. All of the people who levelled DD jobs don't get to contribute, which doesn't keep them playing.

What I wanted to say, but sadly, I fail.

 

[Courtney]

It should be balanced in the effect of each job is a member of the game Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Individually, each member of Rock,Paper,Scissors are imbalanced. As a DIVERSE team, they are more
balanced. I'm sorry that's a good analogy but I can't make it fit well in the FFXI universe.
Individually xxx job and race for that matter has a downfall and a strong point. As a diverse team,
as one entity (The PARTY), they are more balanced.

I think that type of balance is is actually really well done in FFXI. A typical experience party has 1x tank 2x support and 3x damage and really needs all 3 classes. Looking at the 14 available (excluding BST and classing WAR as a DD) classes there are 2x tank classes, 4x support classes and 8x damage classes, which is exactly the right proportions. HNM fights tend to follow similar proportions as well.

It's some of the balance within a class which causes problems. There's no point in having 8 damage dealing classes if one is significantly stronger than all the others, because that's the only class that will ever get used.

 

[Pompidou]

There are 15, soon to be 18 jobs. I don't think every job needs to be equally viable in every mission or battle. I think there needs to be an equal number of events where each job dominates and other jobs suck. SE gave us free job changing to let us customize our character with the right job for the task. Right now though, Blm is the optimal job for too many events in proportion to the other jobs. If SE made a lot of events where Blm was the worst choice to take and gave other jobs an equal proportion of moments in the spotlight, it'd give us the balance we need. Of course, these events would need to be as important as the ones Blm currently dominates. It's not that Blm is the best at KS30 and DM that's the real problem. It's that no other job has a similar important task to be needed for. If SE made more missions, quests and battles where every job but Blm was useful, and the rewards were as lucrative as the Blm dominated ones, the results would be the same as an adjustment. Noone really cares whether Thundaga III does 2,000 spike damage. It's not numbers jealousy. It's that SE hasn't made any worthwhile events that other jobs are best at.

 

[The Druw]

There are 15, soon to be 18 jobs. I don't think every job needs to be equally viable in every mission or battle. I think there needs to be an equal number of events where each job dominates and other jobs suck. SE gave us free job changing to let us customize our character with the right job for the task. Right now though, Blm is the optimal job for too many events in proportion to the other jobs. If SE made a lot of events where Blm was the worst choice to take and gave other jobs an equal proportion of moments in the spotlight, it'd give us the balance we need. Of course, these events would need to be as important as the ones Blm currently dominates. It's not that Blm is the best at KS30 and DM that's the real problem. It's that no other job has a similar important task to be needed for. If SE made more missions, quests and battles where every job but Blm was useful, and the rewards were as lucrative as the Blm dominated ones, the results would be the same as an adjustment. Noone really cares whether Thundaga III does 2,000 spike damage. It's not numbers jealousy. It's that SE hasn't made any worthwhile events that other jobs are best at.

So what you're saying is.

We should be forced to level a job we dislike incredibly, for the sake of completeing a mission/quest?

So if BLM sucks at something, but WAR rocks, you should just have WAR level'd up right? I mean. It does things better than BLM sometimes. :/

lolno.

Not only that, but it's not that people want to see BLM do HORRIBLY at things. They just wish their job could do things like that too. It comes down to the idea of, yeah you have all those job choices. But consider the time it takes to get high level. In no way were we meant to level a job for each situation, it would be, well RETARDED.We were given those options to pick a job we enjoy. If BLM was meant to be #1. Why even fucking give us job choices? ; So we can realize later that we're useless?

Of course the same could be said for the players. It's been said before, people are lazy fucks who don't want to earn anything. Pfft. Lose a couple thousand-mil for a 5 second shot at a V-Claw? WOOT.

Easy Mode <Do you need it?>

Of course, people don't understand. It's your choice in the end. If you wanna do Easy Mode, or the Hard Mode.

It's one of the reasons I chose DRG. It's a difficult road to 75. So when I ding, yeah, I will feel like I've worked harder than a BLM to earn it. I'm not gonna bullshit.

And hell, my only drive for the nerf is the egotsitical pricks. Even then, You can /blacklist. So it isn't necessary, least considering my reasoning.

 

[Pompidou]

People are forced to level jobs they dislike all the time. It's part of the subjob system. I don't think every job should be equally viable in every situation. I think every job should have an equal number of situations to be viable in.

 

[Mokk]

So ... what? nerf the content not the jobs?

Makes sense from a player perspective but on the dev side of things ... ouch. Not only is it a hit to the ego but a massive undertaking, i can see why they don't even though i may not understand or agree with their motivations for not doing so.

 

[The Druw]

While a understandable point, due to the subjob choices. I still don't know if I agree. Because alot of the thigns we're discussing isn't just taking a job to 30. It could end up taking something to damn 75 just to participate in something. That doesn't make sense to me. Considering the time it takes an average job to level. Plus, I love my main job, and you love yours. Do you really wanna have to level WAR to get to be a part of the fun?

If I can't do it on my main, It won't be as much fun. :/

 

[Pompidou]

Hmm, as far as warrior - I would level it but I dislike levelling ninja. That's an example of being forced to level a job I dislike having an impact on my game decision making. There are many jobs I won't level because I don't want to level ninja. In my oppinion, there's no cooler damage dealer than a heavily armored Galka warrior weilding a great axe - it's the nirvana of meleedom. So I guess I pretty much proved your point in a roundabout manner. I don't want to level every job to be viable in every situation. This isn't FF Tactics Advance, and I disliked the Laws limiting my job options in that game with a passion. I guess FFXI shouldn't be the same, but I think SE implimented the job-change feature for just that reason. IE: if you can level any job you need, they don't need to balance the content for every job. Right or wrong, I think it's reality - or at least the logic behind the madness.