Adolf Bush, Free speech what is that?

Firestreak said:
At least I'm not taking Trippyhippy's stand that the person making the accusation doesn't need evidence, only the skeptic requires it. Go shoot holes in his argument while you pass time for me to be ready if you stand for that value so much.

Well, it's not that i have convictions about this or anything you just haden't clarified what i was wondering about, sheesh. Your both a lil off the deep end on this from where i'm sitting, but i've not got sources or enough of an opinion on this subject matter. I've said what i have to say regarding the OP and everything else brought up, consider me a spectator at this point.
 
Firestreak said:
260 million people, some are destined to be unhappy.
No doubt, the troublesome part is that when about 50% of voters are unhappy, then those who are in power really ought to think about what it is they are doing wrong. Which is a thought that has never seen the light in the G.W. Bush administration.

I mean seriously, if you were in power, and after 4 years of your work half the people who voted say you suck, wouldn't you at least sit back for a moment and consider what it is you are doing to make those 50% unhappy?
 
Sculli said:
No doubt, the troublesome part is that when about 50% of voters are unhappy, then those who are in power really ought to think about what it is they are doing wrong. Which is a thought that has never seen the light in the G.W. Bush administration.

I mean seriously, if you were in power, and after 4 years of your work half the people who voted say you suck, wouldn't you at least sit back for a moment and consider what it is you are doing to make those 50% unhappy?

Why? You're in a position of power now. Not to mention, Your second term. You can't run for re-election. Why not just do what the hell you want that don't get you impeached? You've pretty much pissed off most of your party anyway. So thats been done.

While what you say makes sense, and it's wonderful logic, it is probably just a dream.

I was joking during this election about Civil War. Red Vs. Blue States. Sometimes I ponder if it could really happen...lol.
 
Firestreak said:
First off, I don't find it unpatriotic to oppose the war. I find it unpatriotic to oppose the military in general, which some liberals do and some don't.

And I suppose all conservatives support the military? Come on, the last time the soldiers were blamed for the attrocites of war was vietnam. This is just an uninfomed attack on libral patriotism.

Your links contain a lot of fairly disconnected facts that don't really make any case, except that economic needs have historically influenced war. Bush's name is only mentioned three times in the article...

"President Bush has issued a call for more oil production, which isn’t necessarily a free-market position but only seems like one given the huge number of restrictions on the market now that inhibit production. "
-Bush has called for more drilling in the US, hoping for us to be more independant of foreign oil.

"To what lengths will the Bush administration, which everyone knows is the muscle end of the domestic oil industry, go to pursue its desire for more production? To war, perhaps? "
-Everyone knows? I suppose this guy means, all(20?) of his loyal readers think. There's also a logical fallacy there. I believe it's called 'Begging the question.'

"Even a casual look at the facts raises questions about the usual rationale. The Bush administration said it was necessary to overthrow the Taliban because it was sheltering Bin Laden, who had been secretly behind the attacks of 9/11. And yet the hijackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia, a brutal and unelected regime but a US ally that has inexplicably escaped all blame in the aftermath."
-This one is just stupid. We attacked the Taliban, because that's where Al Queda was centered. Sure, Bin Laden was born in Saudi Arabia, but they hate him.

Can't see the forest for the trees?

I don't need proof. You're the one who's making the accusation, you're the one who needs the proof. My proof is your lack of proof.

I gave more proof for my arguement than you gave for yours.


Ironically, the vote for Clinton's impeachment was much closer than this.
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/106/senate/1/votes/17/

we've both already agreed that whole impeachment thing was bullshit. None of the charges brought against him had any relation whatsoever on his ability to do his job.


It doesn't matter if there were WMD or not. Saddam broke the treaty. Without the treaty enforced, it is useless. Without it, yes we are not safe because if there were no WMDs then, there could be some eventually.

We went to war because some saudis fly some planes into a couple of buildings. So we sent 10000 trops to Afghanistan to look for there leader. Then we started a shock and awe campaign on the country inbetween those 2 because we had reliable information that they had WMD. I think it matters greatly. Then there is north Korea, who we know has WMDs, that sits across the ocean being totally ignored by the Bush Administration.


Because you've only voted once? =p

2 different elections now, but I didn't just vote for president.
 
Sculli said:
No doubt, the troublesome part is that when about 50% of voters are unhappy, then those who are in power really ought to think about what it is they are doing wrong. Which is a thought that has never seen the light in the G.W. Bush administration.

I mean seriously, if you were in power, and after 4 years of your work half the people who voted say you suck, wouldn't you at least sit back for a moment and consider what it is you are doing to make those 50% unhappy?

If I was in power, I'd follow my convinctions. I wouldn't listen to polls to tell me how to run the country. Bush said what he was intending to do during the 2004 election and no he's doing it. If he pulled out of Iraq for instance, people like Trippyhippy for example are still going to hate him just because he's a Republican. Perhaps he'll win some swing voters but he'll lose a lot of the base that actually voted for him.

Trippyhippy said:
And I suppose all conservatives support the military? Come on, the last time the soldiers were blamed for the attrocites of war was vietnam. This is just an uninfomed attack on libral patriotism.

Not all conservatives are for the war. It's a question of what some of the extremists of the liberal end have said, and a question of the disgusting amount of support they recieve because of it.

Trippyhippy said:
Can't see the forest for the trees?

I can see an article on a far-out leftist webpage that makes an assertion and then goes out and finds any irrelevant fact, throws in bad logic and states opinion as unquestionable truth. And with all that, still fails to build a solid case. Even though you may wish for it to be true, you should still try and look at it with the skeptic lens.

Trippyhippy said:
I gave more proof for my arguement than you gave for yours.

What proof? Those links were crap and you know it. Not only did I dissect and counter all their points about GWB, but even if taken as fact it builds no real case. You want me to link to some right winged propoganda bullshit and cite that as my counter-proof? I've got years of White House press conferences, state of the unions, etc as my proof. But I suppose that's less credible to you?

Trippyhippy said:
we've both already agreed that whole impeachment thing was bullshit. None of the charges brought against him had any relation whatsoever on his ability to do his job.

That's right, we agree that it was a good thing the senate voted Not Guilty and the impeachment didn't have any effect. But just as you said the war is wrong because 23 senators voted against it, 45 senators voted guilty. Your measure of right and wrong on the floors of congress was just disproven.

Trippyhippy said:
We went to war because some saudis fly some planes into a couple of buildings. So we sent 10000 trops to Afghanistan to look for there leader. Then we started a shock and awe campaign on the country inbetween those 2 because we had reliable information that they had WMD. I think it matters greatly. Then there is north Korea, who we know has WMDs, that sits across the ocean being totally ignored by the Bush Administration.

We went to war against terrorism. Terrorists don't have a country, they have only people who harbor them. Governments who support the terrorists and allow them to make base on their lands need to be deposed simply for our own protection. It has nothing to do with the actual nationality of the terrorists. It's about self preservation not revenge.

Furthermore, North Korea is already a nuclear threat to us. We can't simply invade them because of what's called mutually assured destruction. If you're to blame anyone over it, blame Clinton who allowed the situation to get to this. There's nothing Bush can do about it at this point more than wait for them to collapse on their own like all other communist states.
 
Sculli said:
No doubt, the troublesome part is that when about 50% of voters are unhappy, then those who are in power really ought to think about what it is they are doing wrong. Which is a thought that has never seen the light in the G.W. Bush administration.

I mean seriously, if you were in power, and after 4 years of your work half the people who voted say you suck, wouldn't you at least sit back for a moment and consider what it is you are doing to make those 50% unhappy?

Lolpeoplewhobelivepopularvoteisway
 
Firestreak said:
If I was in power, I'd follow my convinctions. I wouldn't listen to polls to tell me how to run the country. Bush said what he was intending to do during the 2004 election and no he's doing it. If he pulled out of Iraq for instance, people like Trippyhippy for example are still going to hate him just because he's a Republican. Perhaps he'll win some swing voters but he'll lose a lot of the base that actually voted for him.

How dare anyone listen to advise and base decisions on the latest information available.

I don't hate republicans in general. I can't say I much care for the ones interested in throwing potheads in jail, letting people buy fully automatic weapons, having conversations with god, crippling our education system, giving tax cuts to people living in the lap of luxury, getting american troops killed doing things Iraqi troops should be doing, telling me I can't do something that has no ill effect on anyone at all... It just so happens the majority of people that do these things are republican. But it's not the republican that makes me not like them, it's thier opinions.


Not all conservatives are for the war. It's a question of what some of the extremists of the liberal end have said, and a question of the disgusting amount of support they recieve because of it.

Someone said something you disagree with and a lot of other people agree with it, so it's disgusting? And if you are talking about extremist liberals, they go in the catergory with extremists moreso than liberals. Just like extremist anything.

I can see an article on a far-out leftist webpage that makes an assertion and then goes out and finds any irrelevant fact, throws in bad logic and states opinion as unquestionable truth. And with all that, still fails to build a solid case. Even though you may wish for it to be true, you should still try and look at it with the skeptic lens.

What proof? Those links were crap and you know it. Not only did I dissect and counter all their points about GWB, but even if taken as fact it builds no real case. You want me to link to some right winged propoganda bullshit and cite that as my counter-proof? I've got years of White House press conferences, state of the unions, etc as my proof. But I suppose that's less credible to you?

I can't do anything that will get you to see my point if you've already convinced yourself that your view is flawless and all others have no merit.
Anything I link to is an opinion or an irreverent fact or just a Biast lie. But all your links are complete facts because you somehow have the super human ability to seek out the .01% of webpages on the internet that have published the truth.

That's right, we agree that it was a good thing the senate voted Not Guilty and the impeachment didn't have any effect. But just as you said the war is wrong because 23 senators voted against it, 45 senators voted guilty. Your measure of right and wrong on the floors of congress was just disproven.

Honestly, I don't see what one has to do with the other. Different senate, different motivation, different topic all together... Maybe the idea that both votes were to bypass a decision that had already been made? America voted in clinton (unlike bush) then the Republican side wanted to kick him out. UN said no war yet, then america said "Fuck you" we'll do it anyway.

We went to war against terrorism. Terrorists don't have a country, they have only people who harbor them. Governments who support the terrorists and allow them to make base on their lands need to be deposed simply for our own protection. It has nothing to do with the actual nationality of the terrorists. It's about self preservation not revenge.

Do you really believe that? You do know the leader of the terrorist was in afghanistan when we invaded Iraq and our president said on international television that "Bin ladin just isn't that important anymore". We sent less troops into afghanistan than there are on duty police officers at any given point in time on the Island of Manhatten. Then hundreds of thousands of troops into Iraq.

Furthermore, North Korea is already a nuclear threat to us. We can't simply invade them because of what's called mutually assured destruction. If you're to blame anyone over it, blame Clinton who allowed the situation to get to this. There's nothing Bush can do about it at this point more than wait for them to collapse on their own like all other communist states.

Yeah like when USSR collapsed and then they lost all those nuclear weapons. That's a good Idea, just wait em out. To bad they have nukes or we could just invade them like any other country with a marginally effective airforce.

This conversation is just getting rediculous now. Say what you want, I may respond, I may not. You haven't understood anything I've said up until this point, I may as well stop trying.
 
Trippyhippy said:
How dare anyone listen to advise and base decisions on the latest information available.

I don't hate republicans in general. I can't say I much care for the ones interested in throwing potheads in jail, letting people buy fully automatic weapons, having conversations with god, crippling our education system, giving tax cuts to people living in the lap of luxury, getting american troops killed doing things Iraqi troops should be doing, telling me I can't do something that has no ill effect on anyone at all... It just so happens the majority of people that do these things are republican. But it's not the republican that makes me not like them, it's thier opinions.


So the government shouldn't tell you not to smoke pot, but it should tell me I can't own a gun to defend myself? And the same government should tell me it's wrong to make more money and spread my money around to others? It should tell me where I should send my kids to school? The government has no business in your stash, but the hell with people who believe in god, is that the jist of it?

If so, yes, no Republican will ever please you. Which is why, quite frankly GWB doesn't give a shit about you because you're not going to compromise any middle ground.


Trippyhippy said:
Someone said something you disagree with and a lot of other people agree with it, so it's disgusting? And if you are talking about extremist liberals, they go in the catergory with extremists moreso than liberals. Just like extremist anything.

To be more specific. Bashing the war isn't unpatriotic. Bashing America is unpatriotic. Saying your country disgusts you is unpatriotic.

Trippyhippy said:
I can't do anything that will get you to see my point if you've already convinced yourself that your view is flawless and all others have no merit.
Anything I link to is an opinion or an irreverent fact or just a Biast lie. But all your links are complete facts because you somehow have the super human ability to seek out the .01% of webpages on the internet that have published the truth.

I'm sorry the specific page you gave me just so happens to be junk and doesn't proove your case at all. I explained to you why, I don't know what more I can say.

Trippyhippy said:
Honestly, I don't see what one has to do with the other. Different senate, different motivation, different topic all together... Maybe the idea that both votes were to bypass a decision that had already been made? America voted in clinton (unlike bush) then the Republican side wanted to kick him out. UN said no war yet, then america said "Fuck you" we'll do it anyway.

This has to do with the argument you made, which was this...

"133 Reps. and 23 senators voted against it. If it was really the right thing to do, noone would have voted agaisnt it. There are other people out there that see what I do. And who gives a damn what kerry voted for. I voted for him, yes. I think anyone could have done a better job than bush. That doesn't mean i'm 100% behind Kerry. He could never hope to be anywhere near the man (or president) clinton is."

My point was, the outcome was the outcome, and it obviously isn't all on one single man.

Trippyhippy said:
Do you really believe that? You do know the leader of the terrorist was in afghanistan when we invaded Iraq and our president said on international television that "Bin ladin just isn't that important anymore". We sent less troops into afghanistan than there are on duty police officers at any given point in time on the Island of Manhatten. Then hundreds of thousands of troops into Iraq.

I vaguely remember what you're referencing to, and you're taking it out of context.

Trippyhippy said:
Yeah like when USSR collapsed and then they lost all those nuclear weapons. That's a good Idea, just wait em out. To bad they have nukes or we could just invade them like any other country with a marginally effective airforce.

The situation is what it is. We can't invade North Korea, if we want to or not. So comparing North Korea to Iraq is pretty much irrelevant. If North Korea had no nukes, and the terrorists camps were all there, that's where we'd be.

This conversation is just getting rediculous now. Say what you want, I may respond, I may not. You haven't understood anything I've said up until this point, I may as well stop trying.
 
Another thing I'll point out, popular vote is a stupid thing to be harping on, claiming he's not a legitely the president because first term he didn't get it. The election wasn't for popular vote, therefore he didn't campaign to get the popular vote. Running for president is about focusing on getting the votes in the states you can swing over. Being as this isn't a direct democracy, the popular vote is in fact meaningless.
If you disagree with the system, vote for people who want to change it to popular vote. But in the previous hundreds of years of elections, that was never the system. Had that been the system, Bush's campaign would have been geared towards all of America not just the swing states, and for all you know he could have gotten popular vote.
 
There are a lot of abstracts being discussed in this thread. Let's forget about those and make it more specific. What exactly has the Bush administration done to improve my life? And no, invading Iraq is something I will never count as a benefit to me, ever, so there is no point in bringing that one up.
 
I can state some things he's accomplished.

He signed the Medicare Act of 2003, which added prescription drug coverage to Medicare (United States), subsidized pharmaceutical corporations, and prohibited the Federal government from negotiating discounts with drug companies.

He signed the Partial-Birth Abortion ban.

Inflation under Bush has remained near historic lows at about 2-3% per year.

He signed the the No Child Left Behind Act.

Do-Not-Call Implementation Act, notice any drop in telemarketer calling you during dinner?

Homeland Security Act of 2002, shouldn't have to explain this.

Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005, damn important when you look at companies that use bankruptcy over and over again to stay in business while running it competitors out of the market.

Just a few...
 
In italics are listed what bush considers to be his major First term accomplishments, underneath, I've listed articles that offer the truth.

JOBS AND THE U.S. ECONOMY

Between 2000 and 2003, productivity grew at the fastest three-year rate in more than 50 years.
In September 2003, the U.S. Department of Commerce reported the lowest unemployment rate (5.4%) since October 2001.
The president's tax relief allowed families to keep more of what they earn by cutting tax rates across the board.


As of May, 2005, there have been 893,000 jobs created over the first 52 months of the Bush presidency - a gain that is due solely to the 917,000 jobs created in the government sector that offset the 24,000 jobs lost in the private sector. Since the Great Depression, no other president who served at least 52 months has overseen a net loss in private sector jobs through this point. In addition to lack of job growth, real weekly and hourly wages have declined since the start of the recession. At a time when middle-class Americans are experiencing stagnant wages and vanishing benefits, CEO pay continues to rise.
Source: Center for American Progress, Economic Policy Weekly, Jenna Churchman, June 6, 2005


EDUCATION REFORM

President Bush submitted his framework for education reform, No Child Left Behind (NCLB), three days after taking office and secured overwhelming bipartisan support less than a year later. NCLB represents the most significant overhaul of U.S. education policy since 1965, when the Elementary and Secondary Education Act was passed.

In 2000, Bush promised our country an education plan that would rival those of the most progressive developed nations. According to the Center for American Progress, Bush's budget is now $9.4 billion less than the levels agreed to under the No Child Left Behind Act. Bush's failed education program mirrors the nation's worst budget shortfalls since World War II. The decrease in funding has eliminated 38 education programs, including after-school care, teacher quality initiatives, and school counseling. Source: The Center for American Progress, "The Failed Promise to Leave No Child Behind," April 6, 2004

MAKING HEALTH CARE MORE ACCESSIBLE

In December 2003, President Bush signed legislation that makes Health Savings Accounts available to millions of Americans. Health Savings Accounts offer flexible, affordable insurance options for small businesses and individuals.
This legislation also will make prescription drug coverage available to 40 million senior citizens and people with disabilities through the Medicare healthcare system.


The Bush administration acknowledged that it is short $1 billion for covering current needs at the Department of Veterans Affairs this year. The Bush administration and House Republicans have been the main focus of anger among veterans organizations. Their "policies are inconsistent with a nation at war," said Steve Robertson, legislative director of the American Legion. They violate the basic military value of "an army of one, teamwork, taking care of each other," he said.
Source: The Washington Post, "Funds for Health Care of Veterans $1 Billion Short," Thomas B. Edsall, June 24, 2005

A budget that seeks to expand enrollment in Health Savings Accounts (HSA) is likely to increase the number of uninsured people, a study says. The budget would allow HSA participants to claim a tax deduction for the premium costs of high-deductible insurance policies. Analysis by a leading health economist, Jonathan Gruber of M.I.T., finds that because of its adverse effects on employer-based coverage, this deduction would likely increase the numbers of the uninsured by 350,000. The administration estimates the cost of the plan at $24.8 billion over ten years. The deduction would benefit high-income taxpayers, while encouraging employers to drop employer-based coverage or not offer it in the first place. Gruber, who conducted his research for the Kaiser Family Foundation, found that the number of workers who would lose insurance because of employers dropping coverage would likely exceed the number of uninsured individuals who would gain coverage as a result of the deduction.
Sources: "Proposal for New HSA Tax Deduction Found Likely To Increase the Ranks of the Uninsured," Edward Park and Robert Greenstein, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, May 10, 2004; "The President's Costly Tax Deduction for High-Deductible Health Insurance Offers Little to the Uninsured and Could Undermine Existing Coverage," Joint Economic Committee Democrats, Feb. 2004


PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT

President Bush has committed America to meeting the challenge of long-term global climate change by reducing the ratio of greenhouse gas emissions to economic output, or greenhouse gas intensity, by 18 percent by 2012 compared to 2002.
In December 2003, President Bush signed legislation implementing key provisions of his Healthy Forests Initiative. The President's initiative is helping restore the health and vitality of forests and rangelands, and helping reduce the threat of catastrophic wildfires.


Environmentalists are seeing some of their worst fears played out as Bush moves to cement a second-term agenda that includes getting more timber, oil and gas from public lands and relying on the market, rather than on regulation, to curb pollution. The AP reports that Bush's top energy priority as he enters his second term is to open an Alaskan wildlife refuge to oil drilling. The Bush administration supports minimal environmental regulation, believing that industry is best left to police itself. Environmentalists have called this the most anti-environmental administration ever.
Source: Associated Press, "For Environmentalists, Four More Years of Bad News," John Heilprin, Dec. 1, 2004

The U.S. Newswire reported that Bush’s "Clear Skies" legislation is being opposed by over 100 physician, health, environmental and consumer groups because it would create an increase in mercury pollution. The Clear Skies proposal, considered to be the cornerstone of Bush’s environmental policy, is aimed at reducing emissions from power plants, but has been criticized for failing to address carbon dioxide emissions and other pollutants adequately. According to Reuters, a competing bill drafted by a bipartisan group of moderate senators would reduce sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, and mercury emissions from power plants sooner and with greater efficacy than the Clear Skies plan. The U.S. Newswire indicated that 8% of U.S. women of childbearing age currently have unsafe mercury levels – which puts over 300,000 children born each year at risk of mercury poisoning. Bush’s plan reportedly would delay the initiation of mercury reductions for another seven years, postpone full implementation until 2018, and ultimately would reduce pollution only a fraction of what will be achieved by current law.
Sources: Reuters, "EPA Touts Benefits of Bush Power Plant Emission Curbs," Chris Baltimore, July 2, 2003; U.S. Newswire, "More Mercury Pollution Allowed Under Bush Plan, Says Mercury Policy Project; 100 Groups Write to Oppose Legislation," July 8, 2003

The White House requested Congress to exempt the Pentagon from environmental laws pertaining to air pollution, toxic waste dumps, and endangered species. The Defense Department claims that these exemptions are necessary to enable proper training and readiness activities for the probable war in Iraq. However, Christine Todd Whitman, of the Environmental Protection Agency, testified before the Senate, "I don't believe that there is a training mission anywhere in the country that is being held up or not taking place because of environmental protection regulation."
Source: Washington Post, "Environmental Exemptions Sought," Eric Pianin, March 6, 2003
 
Far as I know what he did was make sure Medicare would go bankrupt in the near future.............

He did allow me to go on 1 more shopping spree per year. That and he's givin my boss more incentive to up my pay, and bonuses hugely. But I feel really sorry for other people who work in the company, lol, Bush has done jack shit for them in comparision. He's even taken away some rights that employees used to have, its nice to be in management.

Theres less grants in the college I go to, compared to before, I used to like all that free money to screw around as a research assistant, can't do that no more, lol.

Hopefully after raping me in the ass in gas prices he motivates the energy companies to create some new energy sources.

He's trying to change my awesome health plan I get from my employer to this crappy Health savings account plan. Which is gaurenteed even by the insurance companies to lower the amount of service they can provide. Hey maybe if this comes through I'll actually have better health coverage than I do now since I need to actually pay the $300,000 operation bill myself. And you know what? All that money that my employer saves will go into another increase in my pay, not that the employees will see any of that, lol.

yay me, yay Bush, screw everybody else.
 
Firestreak said:
I can state some things he's accomplished.

He signed the Medicare Act of 2003, which added prescription drug coverage to Medicare (United States), subsidized pharmaceutical corporations, and prohibited the Federal government from negotiating discounts with drug companies.

As Republicans attempt to address confusion over the new Medicare prescription drug discount program scheduled to go into effect June 1, many seniors are already discovering that the program looks to be less helpful than promised. The new program includes 73 competing drug discount cards, each providing a different level of savings on a different selection of medications, and all subject to change. Among a number of retirees of different income groups, the initial reaction was incomprehension. "Even the person who came to explain it to us didn't understand it," Mary Shen, 77, at the Whittaker Senior Center on Manhattan's Lower East Side, told the New York Times. "It's not fair to expect seniors, who have enough difficulties already, to have to figure this out." Several prices posted on the Medicare website in mid-May were reportedly incorrect, and some drug companies said the government miscalculated what their cards would charge for certain prescriptions. Though Republican leaders claimed the cards would be an improvement on existing programs, some seniors have discovered that the new cards actually offer less coverage than certain state, union or consumer group plans. For some people, the cost of drugs under the new program could be 50 to 60 percent higher than what they currently pay. Critics charged that the discount cards were an attempt by the Bush administration to prevent the importation of cheaper prescription drugs from countries like Canada. Bush and Republican leaders pushed for the law in 2003 over the objections of many Democrats, who charged that the program offers limited benefits to seniors while providing large subsidies and other benefits for insurance companies, HMOs and drug manufacturers. For example, drug companies can change the prescriptions covered on a particular card or the prices at any time, while seniors can change cards only once per year.
Sources: "73 Options for Medicare Plan Fuel Chaos, Not Prescriptions," John Leland, The New York Times, May 12, 2004; "New Drug Card for Medicare Touted by GOP," Ceci Connolly, The Washington Post, May 4, 2004; "Medicare Drug Cards Rolled Out," William M. Welch, USA Today, May 4, 2004.

He signed the Partial-Birth Abortion ban.

Bravo. Like that was ever done when the life of the mother wasn't in danger.


He signed the the No Child Left Behind Act.

Having based much of his 2000 campaign platform on a school voucher program that was dismantled in Congress, Bush ultimately settled for his"leave no child behind" legislation mandating school accountability standards. According to the Associated Press, Bush is now facing criticism for "breaking his promise to provide state and local officials with all the money the legislation promised to fulfill the new mandate." Recently, perhaps in response to such criticism, Bush announced that he intends to push Congress to pass legislation that would establish a $75 million school choice incentive plan for several cities in 2004. Voucher plans have numerous critics, including teachers unions, who contend that they "would drain money from public schools and too often end up supporting religious schools," reports the Associated Press.
Source: Associated Press, "Bush Pushing for Vouchers at D.C. Schools," Jennifer Loven, July 1, 2003

Do-Not-Call Implementation Act, notice any drop in telemarketer calling you during dinner?

Whopty freakin doo.

Homeland Security Act of 2002, shouldn't have to explain this.

The American Civil Liberties Union charged the Bush administration with placing science under siege by overzealously tightening restrictions on information, individuals, and technology in the name of homeland security. Since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks the government has actively increased the use of classifying information to keep it secret, including the use of the category "unclassified but sensitive" and extending classification authority to more departments, the ACLU said. The report lists other science restrictions, including limiting the access of foreign scholars to information, restricting their participation in some areas of research and tightening visa rules with the result of blocking or delaying visits to this country by foreign students and teachers. The ACLU charged the administration with trying to suppress information on such topics as global warming, mercury emissions and emergency contraception.
Source: Associated Press, "ACLU Says Bush is Restricting Science," June 21, 2005

The new personnel structuring system unveiled by the Bush administration earlier this year for use in the departments of Defense and Homeland Security is designed to undermine the unions of government workers, union leaders say. The new system allows supervisors to move employees and put new technologies into use without consulting employee unions; it also limits the role of the independent Federal Labor Relations Authority and gives internal labor relations boards more control. Though several unions are speaking out against the new personnel system, the White House is proposing legislation to change other government agencies to match the new system.
Sources: Washington Post, "Communication Breakdown Stokes Flap Between Homeland Security and Union," Stephen Barr, Feb. 14, 2005; Washington Post, "Civil Service System on Way Out at DHS," Christopher Lee, Jan. 27, 2005; Washington Post, "Bush Aims to Forge A GOP Legacy," Thomas B. Edsall and John F. Harris, Jan. 30, 2005; Federal Times Online, "The future of civil service: Reforms empower managers, set course for entire government," Tim Kauffman and Eileen Sullivan, Jan. 31, 2005

Bush was instrumental in the defeat of a Democratic-sponsored amendment to remove several provisions from the Homeland Security bill that Democratic senators labeled "'special interest' favors." Bush's last-minute calls to undecided senators ultimately tipped the balance against the amendment, which would have eliminated such boons to business as setting limits to the legal liability of a specific vaccine manufacturer, airport security equipment manufacturers and airport security providers and allowing companies that move offshore to evade U.S. taxes to bid for homeland security contracts.
Source: Washington Post, "Amendment to Homeland Security Bill Defeated," Helen Dewar, Nov. 19, 2002


Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005, damn important when you look at companies that use bankruptcy over and over again to stay in business while running it competitors out of the market.

Imagine that. Bush helping Big business.

Just a few...

Gonna need a few more, as you have been grossly misinformed concerning most of the things he's accomplished.
 
Hey what about Social Security? You know the thing Bush wants to kill that I have been paying for....................

I guess he's just gonna pocket that crap and I don't get jack in return, so much for the freaking tax break.
 
Darkdante said:
Hey what about Social Security? You know the thing Bush wants to kill that I have been paying for....................

I guess he's just gonna pocket that crap and I don't get jack in return, so much for the freaking tax break.

In the 2005 State of the Union address, Bush outlined a plan to privatize Social Security that has countless pitfalls, all of which would hurt women, people of color, people with disabilities and their dependents. Bush's plan to create private accounts would cut benefits for recipients now and in the future, create more national debt, create a retirement void for those who do not make enough money to save larger portions of their paychecks, and would put savings at risk in the stock market. When White House officials unveiled the Bush plan this month, they cited predictions by Social Security Administration estimating that two-thirds of all workers would choose private accounts. But the San Francisco Chronicle, noting that 55 percent of Gallup poll respondents recently said that private accounts sounded like a bad idea, asked Social Security's chief actuary about the source of the prediction, and he acknowledged it was not based on statistical data, surveys or participation rates in other types of retirement plans.
Sources: New York Times, "Spearing the Beast," Paul Krugman, Feb. 8, 2005; Office of House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, "Risky GOP Proposal Will Cut Social Security Benefits," Jan. 24, 2005; San Francisco Chronicle, "Tallying Personal Accounts," Feb. 17, 2005.
 
Trippyhippy said:
Bravo. Like that was ever done when the life of the mother wasn't in danger.

It happened. The law was needed.


Trippyhippy said:
Having based much of his 2000 campaign platform on a school voucher program that was dismantled in Congress, Bush ultimately settled for his"leave no child behind" legislation mandating school accountability standards. According to the Associated Press, Bush is now facing criticism for "breaking his promise to provide state and local officials with all the money the legislation promised to fulfill the new mandate." Recently, perhaps in response to such criticism, Bush announced that he intends to push Congress to pass legislation that would establish a $75 million school choice incentive plan for several cities in 2004. Voucher plans have numerous critics, including teachers unions, who contend that they "would drain money from public schools and too often end up supporting religious schools," reports the Associated Press.

School vouchers don't really drain money from the schools persay. They take the money out that the school would have had to spend on the student, and then they take the student out. It simply gives parents more choices. The teachers union opposes it of course, but the teacher's union is out there to look out for the best interest of the TEACHERS not the students. The best interest of the teachers is lax standards, no competition.


Trippyhippy said:
Whopty freakin doo.

I mostly found it humorous. It's the only thing that's happened in goverment that's really affected me directly. That and privitized security, but I guess you're against that too huh? It would be scary to trust me with my own money.



Trippyhippy said:
Imagine that. Bush helping Big business.

Sure, don't even try to understand what that bill is about.

Let's say me and you own competing airlines. We both borrow 500 million to buy a few airplanes. Now you charge higher to pay for the cost of the plane. I, instead file for bankruptcy. All my debts are then cleared. I'm allowed to continue to operate so that my employees aren't fired.

As a result, my tickets are lower priced than yours, because I don't have to pay my debts off. Instead of raising my prices, I keep them low to get more costumer than you, go bankrupt again, and file for chapter 11 again. By the goverment interfering to keep me alive, all my competitors go under. That's why the airline industry among many other are all fucked up now.


Trippyhippy said:
As Republicans attempt to address confusion over the new Medicare prescription drug discount program scheduled to go into effect June 1, many seniors are already discovering that the program looks to be less helpful than promised. The new program includes 73 competing drug discount cards, each providing a different level of savings on a different selection of medications, and all subject to change. Among a number of retirees of different income groups, the initial reaction was incomprehension. "Even the person who came to explain it to us didn't understand it," Mary Shen, 77, at the Whittaker Senior Center on Manhattan's Lower East Side, told the New York Times. "It's not fair to expect seniors, who have enough difficulties already, to have to figure this out." Several prices posted on the Medicare website in mid-May were reportedly incorrect, and some drug companies said the government miscalculated what their cards would charge for certain prescriptions. Though Republican leaders claimed the cards would be an improvement on existing programs, some seniors have discovered that the new cards actually offer less coverage than certain state, union or consumer group plans. For some people, the cost of drugs under the new program could be 50 to 60 percent higher than what they currently pay. Critics charged that the discount cards were an attempt by the Bush administration to prevent the importation of cheaper prescription drugs from countries like Canada. Bush and Republican leaders pushed for the law in 2003 over the objections of many Democrats, who charged that the program offers limited benefits to seniors while providing large subsidies and other benefits for insurance companies, HMOs and drug manufacturers. For example, drug companies can change the prescriptions covered on a particular card or the prices at any time, while seniors can change cards only once per year.
Sources: "73 Options for Medicare Plan Fuel Chaos, Not Prescriptions," John Leland, The New York Times, May 12, 2004; "New Drug Card for Medicare Touted by GOP," Ceci Connolly, The Washington Post, May 4, 2004; "Medicare Drug Cards Rolled Out," William M. Welch, USA Today, May 4, 2004.

Welcome to Beurocracy. It's inefficient and it usually exists only for the sole purpose of sustaining itself at a point eventually. This is true of almost all governments programs, which is why if I had my way, all the government would do is perform basic functions. Protect(police, courts, military, emergency relief), manage roads, enforce basic environmental protections and provide emergency funding for needed services if they can't sustain themselves.

That's another debate entirely. There's no point keying in on these inefficiencies. Name a program you agree with idealistically, believe me it's got problem functionally.
 
Trippyhippy said:
In the 2005 State of the Union address, Bush outlined a plan to privatize Social Security that has countless pitfalls, all of which would hurt women, people of color, people with disabilities and their dependents. Bush's plan to create private accounts would cut benefits for recipients now and in the future, create more national debt, create a retirement void for those who do not make enough money to save larger portions of their paychecks, and would put savings at risk in the stock market. When White House officials unveiled the Bush plan this month, they cited predictions by Social Security Administration estimating that two-thirds of all workers would choose private accounts. But the San Francisco Chronicle, noting that 55 percent of Gallup poll respondents recently said that private accounts sounded like a bad idea, asked Social Security's chief actuary about the source of the prediction, and he acknowledged it was not based on statistical data, surveys or participation rates in other types of retirement plans.
Sources: New York Times, "Spearing the Beast," Paul Krugman, Feb. 8, 2005; Office of House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, "Risky GOP Proposal Will Cut Social Security Benefits," Jan. 24, 2005; San Francisco Chronicle, "Tallying Personal Accounts," Feb. 17, 2005.

Explain to me how Bush's plan specifically hurts women, people of color, people with disabilities and their dependents.

Social security was a terrible idea in the first place, intended only to be TEMPORARY. But like beurocracies tend to do, it chose to continue to function after it had served its purpose.

Bush's plan is to simply this...

Allow people to invest a portion their own money into BLUE CHIP STOCKS, IF THEY WANT TO, as opposed to having their money sit there being devalued.

If nobody wants to risk their money on the market, then nobody has to. They can all stay in the system. It's just choice. The opposition against it is ridiculous.
 
Firestreak said:
Explain to me how Bush's plan specifically hurts women, people of color, people with disabilities and their dependents.

I could explain it to you, but you probably wouldn't understand or you'd call me names.

Edit: I'm bored at work and going out of my mind trying to quit Smoking. I'll give it a shot.

The Social Security system is gender-blind. None of its provisions treat women differently from men. But that does not mean that the results are gender-neutral. Various cultural and biological differences add up to the fact that Social Security is much more essential, and a much better deal, for women than for men. Of all groups, none has more to lose from the privatization of Social Security than women. Compared to the average man, the average woman works fewer years outside the home, earns less per year, and lives longer after retiring. Together, these differences mean that women depend more than men do on spousal and survivors' benefits, they collect benefits for more years than men do, and a greater proportion of their total retirement income comes from Social Security.

Since women on average work fewer years at lower pay, they contribute less in payroll taxes over their lifetimes than do men. But in their various roles as retirees, spouses, and widows, women collect Social Security benefits for more years than men. The result is that women get more net benefits over their lifetimes than do men.

There are fourteen women for every ten men aged 62 or older. Above age 85, this ratio reaches twenty-four women per ten men. Consequently, 60 percent of all Social Security beneficiaries are women. Among those receiving survivor and disability benefits, women and children constitute 85 percent. Women also depend more on Social Security. Older women who are not part of a couple (either widows, divorcees, separated, or never married) get 51 percent of their income from Social Security, and 25 percent of them have no income but Social Security. For men in the same situation (a far smaller proportion of the total), the figures are 39 and 20 percent, respectively.

The poverty rate for older women is almost twice that of older men (in 1997, 13.1 percent versus 7.0 percent). For older women who are not in a couple, the rate gets much higher: more than one in four lives below the poverty line. Fewer than half of them had incomes in 1997 above $1,000 per month. Without Social Security's guaranteed benefits, the already marginal income security for older women would be much worse.

In spite of the improvement in employment opportunities for women, the role of homemaker and primary parent still falls unequally on wives and mothers. Private accounts would jeopardize income that wives, widows, and divorcees now receive under Social Security. The more individual control that passes to workers, the fewer rights their dependents will retain to secure retirement income. If the guarantees and redistributive features of Social Security are replaced with a system that provides benefits according only to how much a worker earns over that worker's lifetime and how fortunate that worker is in financial markets, the average woman, especially the average widow, will lose security and income from already low levels.

Privatization advocates often claim that converting Social Security to a system of private accounts would disproportionately help African Americans and Latin Americans because those groups are purportedly shortchanged by the current system. But in fact there is almost no difference in Social Security's payback by race. And because both of those groups on average earn lower lifetime earnings than whites, those minorities would be at greater risk of facing poverty in their retirement under privatization.

African Americans on average have two characteristics that are disadvantageous under Social Security: shorter life expectancy and a lower marriage rate. But they also have traits that lead to greater benefits under Social Security: a higher disability rate, more survivors receiving benefits, and lower average wages. Latinos also have relatively low incomes on average, but a longer life expectancy and fewer average years in the workforce.

But because African-Americans and Latinos on average have substantially less wealth upon retirement than whites, they are far more dependent on Social Security. Converting the program into a system where their retirement income would be more dependent on investment markets would make those groups even more vulnerable to poverty.

Social security was a terrible idea in the first place, intended only to be TEMPORARY. But like beurocracies tend to do, it chose to continue to function after it had served its purpose.

By that rational, we should just do away with it all together.

Bush's plan is to simply this...

Allow people to invest a portion their own money into BLUE CHIP STOCKS, IF THEY WANT TO, as opposed to having their money sit there being devalued.

If nobody wants to risk their money on the market, then nobody has to. They can all stay in the system. It's just choice. The opposition against it is ridiculous.

So rich people with the most to invest stand to gain the most, while poor people who have nothing to invest ... gain nothing!

Hurray for making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
 
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