Adolf Bush, Free speech what is that?

Firestreak said:
His opinion wasn't outright wrong, his argument about my grammatical usage of "often" was wrong.

HA!

/em admits to being a "skimmer" when threads don't spark her interest... :biggrin:

It just seemed to be getting heated, I think the Flameboard is a better spot for politically charged arguments anway.
 
Mokk said:
It's not high and mighty nor am i calling the discussion worthless, the form of the discussion has no conclusion. I'm simply pointing out that no one involved is doing anything to bridge the gap in understanding, you're simply reiterating yourselves until someone derails the topic and then you dance the same dance to a different tune.

Why so indignant at calling out the obvious? A debate would be one thing, however this is not a debate, it's an arguement about who's right and who's wrongwhich is ultimately futile. There are no points or counterpoints that haven't been issued to death. What you call keeping the mind agile with respect to this thread i would call dulling the mind with repetition. Simply put you all need to learn some new tricks to warrant anyone but you reading this and getting anything out of it.
What does it matter though? Like I already said and you ignored, it is fun. Did you stop to consider maybe we weren't doing it to give others an entertaining read, but maybe just because we enjoy the discussion. Not all discussions are meant for a 3rd party audience. Like I already related it to, playing video games is fun, not done for anyone else, and doesn't serve a purpose. Yet, I don't see you getting mad at people for doing that. Why does every discussion has to serve some higher purpose for understanding? You even did the exact same thing as we have been doing until recently going on this kick of yours about everything having to work towards enlightenment and higher understanding.

I really prefered this thread being outside the flameboard, as a discussion like this typically requires edits for such large arguments.
 
Rones said:
That would be a microeconomics approach. We were discussing in a macroeconomics style. Both are equally valid approachs.

Well, I already tried to teach those basics, but that wasn't well accepted (check my posts with the supply graphs). It was clear that the other side was not interested in learning, so not much point in Fire trying to teach too.

As for the appeal to common sense, interesting read here

Whats the point of trying to say your supply demand curve has all the answers when it doesn't even take into effect human behavior?
 
Darkdante said:
Whats the point of trying to say your supply demand curve has all the answers when it doesn't even take into effect human behavior?
It is designed off human behavior. Did you think they just conjured it up and said everyone must obey it? Of course not. It is just a strong predictor of human behavior. Price goes down, people buy more. Price goes up, suppliers make more because there is more profit off their item. There are exceptions to it like every rule, but it has a very strong correlation with human behavior.
 
Firestreak said:
So basically, you're not going to admit you were wrong?

I'll make sure to notify wiipedia, wordnet, and dictionary.com of their obvious misconceptions.

Rones said:
What does it matter though? Like I already said and you ignored, it is fun. Did you stop to consider maybe we weren't doing it to give others an entertaining read, but maybe just because we enjoy the discussion. Not all discussions are meant for a 3rd party audience. Like I already related it to, playing video games is fun, not done for anyone else, and doesn't serve a purpose. Yet, I don't see you getting mad at people for doing that. Why does every discussion has to serve some higher purpose for understanding? You even did the exact same thing as we have been doing until recently going on this kick of yours about everything having to work towards enlightenment and higher understanding.

I see, did you know you could stroke you ego just a functionally in PM if you aren't interested in public opinion? I didn't ignore it, it was an ignorant statement, don't want 3rd parties involved? Take it to a private place. On a related note how many derails does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?

I'm not comfortable with this being on the FB much either, my intention was not to insult at all. FS made the remark that common sense is often not right, were this 200 years ago or better that would have been an accurate statement. These days it is not, plain and simple, argue it and claim to be right all you like it doesn't make it the truth.

Per usual instead of taking constructive criticism you and FS decided to pick apart what i had to say instead of going back to the topic you were having oh so much fun with and care so deeply about as is certainly apperant now.

In short i find you both incredibly shallow when it comes to topics like this. You're just here for you. You enjoy being longwinded and flexing your intellect for all to see and none to comment. Were i you i'd be embarrassed.
 
I see, did you know you could stroke you ego just a functionally in PM if you aren't interested in public opinion? I didn't ignore it, it was an ignorant statement, don't want 3rd parties involved? Take it to a private place.
PM's don't work too well when there are more than two people involved. I never said I didn't want involvement for others. If people want to join in, great. However, we are not catering the discussion for enjoyment of uninvolved 3rd party readers. If anyone is 'stroking their ego' around here, it would be you were your "I'm better than you" posts you seem to be throwing around everwhere lately. Take a look in the mirror.
Per usual instead of taking constructive criticism you and FS decided to pick apart what i had to say instead of going back to the topic you were having oh so much fun with and care so deeply about as is certainly apperant now.
Wait, you complain of us derailing, yet you come in and bash the whole discussion, insult all of us, and then blame us for the thread getting derailed to the topic you brought up?

If you want to discuss something of matter, have at it. If you want to insult us and call us all simpletons because you don't approve of the quality of the discussion...don't read it. Go away and crap on some other thread with your superior attitude.
 
Rones said:
PM's don't work too well when there are more than two people involved. I never said I didn't want involvement for others. If people want to join in, great. However, we are not catering the discussion for enjoyment of uninvolved 3rd party readers. If anyone is 'stroking their ego' around here, it would be you were your "I'm better than you" posts you seem to be throwing around everwhere lately. Take a look in the mirror.

Did you stop to consider maybe we weren't doing it to give others an entertaining read, but maybe just because we enjoy the discussion.

What's it like starting to turn emo? I'm just curious. I break in and clarify an oviously uninformed, whether intentional or not, statement you didn't even make and then further back up what i have to say with links and facts and all of a sudden i'm the anti-rones, wtf did this start?

Wait, you complain of us derailing, yet you come in and bash the whole discussion, insult all of us, and then blame us for the thread getting derailed to the topic you brought up?

Since we're already here it's good too see you're still uncomfortable with this being on the FB, kinda funny you're the first one to man up to insults but such is life.

I didn't derail at all, FS did by taking the conversation further than it needed. You helped as well. Were you to simply accept the fact that all sources call his claim about common sense in to question and simply move on we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?

If you want to discuss something of matter, have at it. If you want to insult us and call us all simpletons because you don't approve of the quality of the discussion...don't read it. Go away and crap on some other thread with your superior attitude.

My bad, i hold you folks to the standards of facts about what you talk about. I had not been insulting nor had i claimed to be superior once in this thread, i called a stupid comment stupid and showed why it was so. Take your high and mighty attitude and shove it, the fact of the matter is there are more than enough venues available to you to conversate between each other. If you don't want someone busting in disagreeing with something you've had to say then don't post to a public forum.

My most recent contributions have been to promote understanding instead of sitting here and watching you guys call each other simpletons and taking every opportunity to show the community your discussions not only lack merit on the intellectual side (oddly enough) by how you present them to each other but show you truly have no passion for threads/topics of this nature.

If you're posting in a public forum the public should not feel alienated by those debating, that falls to the realm of more PC+1s.

But get hurt feelings, feel indignant, make me out to be the bad guy picking on poor helpless Rones and Firestreak. It's making a good case for you .... really.
 
Mokk said:
I have read it, but just haven't taken the time to write a good response to it. Unlike responding to your posts, a proper response to an actual discussion takes time and research.
What's it like starting to turn emo? I'm just curious.
What the hell are you talking about? I seriously can not follow you anymore.
I break in and clarify an oviously uninformed, whether intentional or not, statement you didn't even make and then further back up what i have to say with links and facts and all of a sudden i'm the anti-rones, wtf did this start?
You started criticizing the entire idea of discussion here:
Mokk said:
If no one is interested in enlightenment what drives the conversation aside from intellectual posturing?
...
My point is one way or another you're just wasting time on redundancy.
You have also not supplied and links and facts related to the economics discussion. You just got in a pissing fight with Fire over the definition of 'often' and derailed the thread.

Mokk said:
I had not been insulting nor had i claimed to be superior once in this thread
Really now...
Mokk said:
In short i find you both incredibly shallow when it comes to topics like this. You're just here for you. You enjoy being longwinded and flexing your intellect for all to see and none to comment. Were i you i'd be embarrassed.
...
My most recent contributions have been to promote understanding instead of sitting here and watching you guys call each other simpletons and taking every opportunity to show the community your discussions not only lack merit on the intellectual side (oddly enough) by how you present them to each other but show you truly have no passion for threads/topics of this nature.
All your posts in this thread are demeaning in a "I am above you petty shallow people" way that is a new tone for you compared to your posts of the past. Your posts are soaked in a 'superior' tone that looks down on everyone who was involved in the discussion.
 
I did not enter this conversation on the basis of economics, as i have very little understanding of it. I entered this conversation due to an innacurate statement about common sense, something i'm very familiar with. You're getting all worked up over nothing, hence the emo label. I had been pondering this uncharacteristic demeanor since the iraq thread. You're the one who started in with personal insults calling me high and mighty.

Rones said:
All your posts in this thread are demeaning in a "I am above you petty shallow people" way that is a new tone for you compared to your posts of the past. Your posts are soaked in a 'superior' tone that looks down on everyone who was involved in the discussion

When on the defensive it's surely easy to read rational comments as demeaning, especially if you are indeed mistaken in what you're saying. You read it that way, i didn't write it that way, again. Cry some more.

You do realize you're bitching at me for taking a page out of the Rones playbook, right? It's 3 simple steps, let me break it down for you:

1.Read an innacurate statement.
2.Comment to the innaccuracy and bolster said comment with facts and sources.
3.Get pissed and moaned at by people who are just in the argument for themselves.

Shall i do a search to list how many times you've done this? I have a funny feeling it'll rival my State of the Union post in length.

I did not get into a pissing match about the definition of the word until he refused to see the obvious point i was making about common sense. Where the hell have you been?

The shallow comment was directed at how you approach this argument, you're here for no other purposes than your own. I find it shallow, cry more.

The irony here is succulent. I can appreciate the frustration of your position as it is in this current line of conversation, i've been there more than a few times myself. I must say it's not easy being you in the metaphorical sense.

That being said i have better things to do with my time that i care much more about that repeating myself, you've got that on lock anyway i'm sure the boards will be covered on the side of redundancy while i'm off doing other things. Keep up the good work.
 
Mokk said:
I did not enter this conversation on the basis of economics, as i have very little understanding of it. I entered this conversation due to an innacurate statement about common sense, something i'm very familiar with. You're getting all worked up over nothing, hence the emo label. I had been pondering this uncharacteristic demeanor since the iraq thread. You're the one who started in with personal insults calling me high and mighty.



When on the defensive it's surely easy to read rational comments as demeaning, especially if you are indeed mistaken in what you're saying. You read it that way, i didn't write it that way, again. Cry some more.

You do realize you're bitching at me for taking a page out of the Rones playbook, right? It's 3 simple steps, let me break it down for you:

1.Read an innacurate statement.
2.Comment to the innaccuracy and bolster said comment with facts and sources.
3.Get pissed and moaned at by people who are just in the argument for themselves.

Shall i do a search to list how many times you've done this? I have a funny feeling it'll rival my State of the Union post in length.

I did not get into a pissing match about the definition of the word until he refused to see the obvious point i was making about common sense. Where the hell have you been?

The shallow comment was directed at how you approach this argument, you're here for no other purposes than your own. I find it shallow, cry more.

The irony here is succulent. I can appreciate the frustration of your position as it is in this current line of conversation, i've been there more than a few times myself. I must say it's not easy being you in the metaphorical sense.

That being said i have better things to do with my time that i care much more about that repeating myself, you've got that on lock anyway i'm sure the boards will be covered on the side of redundancy while i'm off doing other things. Keep up the good work.

I'm going to explain this to you one more time, and just once. Read it until you understand.

Often, is...

Many times; frequently.

No where in the definition of often, does it say that it's something that occurs over half the time. In fact, when something occurs more than half the time, there's a saying.

"More often than not."

If often meant that it happened over half the time, then the saying would read...

It happens more than half of the time than not.

This makes, no sense.

Once we can drill into the head that while often may mean more than 50% of the time, it doesn't have to be. If it did, the definition would say it did.

Now, in a context, whatever I take as the prerequisite for often has meaning. For example, if 1 in 100 people explode for no reason in my town, I would describe that as often. If 1 in 100 videos were returned late to the blockbuster I like to go to, I'd describe that as not often.

Therefore the context of a situation is important.

Let's say I work at a store, and 30% of the people who come into my store are black.

I might say, accurately, then...

Black people visit my store often.

I might also say, people who aren't black visit my store often.

I could not however say, black people don't visit my store often. Not in the same context that I said they DO visit my store often. Those conflict. But just because those black customers visit my store, doesn't mean that my 70% white customers don't visit my store often as well.


This is maybe the 3rd time I've explained it to you. I'm not going to explain it again. You claim to be an adult, you should understand this concept easily. I'm not patient like Rones. I get frusterated and I swear at people for incompetetence.
 
Firestreak said:
I'm going to explain this to you one more time, and just once. Read it until you understand.

Often, is...

Many times; frequently.

No where in the definition of often, does it say that it's something that occurs over half the time. In fact, when something occurs more than half the time, there's a saying.

"More often than not."

If often meant that it happened over half the time, then the saying would read...

It happens more than half of the time than not.

This makes, no sense.

Once we can drill into the head that while often may mean more than 50% of the time, it doesn't have to be. If it did, the definition would say it did.

Now, in a context, whatever I take as the prerequisite for often has meaning. For example, if 1 in 100 people explode for no reason in my town, I would describe that as often. If 1 in 100 videos were returned late to the blockbuster I like to go to, I'd describe that as not often.

Therefore the context of a situation is important.

Let's say I work at a store, and 30% of the people who come into my store are black.

I might say, accurately, then...

Black people visit my store often.

I might also say, people who aren't black visit my store often.

I could not however say, black people don't visit my store often. Not in the same context that I said they DO visit my store often. Those conflict. But just because those black customers visit my store, doesn't mean that my 70% white customers don't visit my store often as well.


This is maybe the 3rd time I've explained it to you. I'm not going to explain it again. You claim to be an adult, you should understand this concept easily. I'm not patient like Rones. I get frusterated and I swear at people for incompetetence.

Congratulations, you again completely missed the point. YOUR interpretation of your statement may have made sense to you. It did not to me for the reasons i've gone over about 20 times now. Those reasons are completely logical based on the arguement i made. Now back to topic sicne you can only argue the point outside of the subject i addressed.

Common sense is not often untrue. It is in fact, true more often than not. Making your statement completely moot as it was entirely uninformed. Had you been paying attention or reading you would have noticed that in my links. Once again i would say if this were a cultural, philosphical, etc argument you're statement abotu common sense would have been compeltely true. Such was not the case. I like that you completely ignored that i drew the line between economics and common sense with the investor as starting point and midnlessly dribble about the definition.

Next time i go over your head take your own advice and read till it makes sense.
 
Also, for the other part, concerning common sense:

common sense
n. Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.This entire bit going back between you three is a matter of semantics honestly. As I mentioned to Mokk, the basic principles of investing rely on common sense, whereas the investor himself relies on specialized knowledge of what he's investing in.
 
Just to calrify my intentions was not to insult or lord anything over anyone.

Your phrasing allowed for criticism of your statement, i made no attempt to insult when making that criticism. Instead of addressing the issue i raised you argue about definitions, so i went to the big book of definitions which backed my argument.

I find it amazing that while i've addressed the intellectual and philosophical failings of those involved with this thread only the 2 bruised egos responded. To DD and Trip's credit they read it and moved on or simple didn't bother responding. Score one for the unenlightened i suppose.
 
Mokk said:
I entered this conversation due to an innacurate statement about common sense, something i'm very familiar with. You're getting all worked up over nothing, hence the emo label. I had been pondering this uncharacteristic demeanor since the iraq thread.
Yet, you stuck around long enough to throw those pot shots at the discussion and everyone involved that I quoted earlier. When I challenged you on them, you stuck to them. So don't claim you are only here to argue with Fire over common sense and a word's definiton.
When on the defensive it's surely easy to read rational comments as demeaning, especially if you are indeed mistaken in what you're saying. You read it that way, i didn't write it that way, again. Cry some more.
Really now? I'm just imaging you said arrogant and demeaning things such as these in this thread?
Mokk said:
This is quite possibly the dumbest thing i've ever read.
...
If no one is interested in enlightenment what drives the conversation aside from intellectual posturing?
...
My point is one way or another you're just wasting time on redundancy.
...
Why so indignant at calling out the obvious?
...
If you don't know what i'm talking about how could you possibly manage an intelligent response?
...
did you know you could stroke you ego just a functionally in PM if you aren't interested in public opinion?
...
In short i find you both incredibly shallow when it comes to topics like this. You're just here for you.
...
What's it like starting to turn emo? I'm just curious.
...
I had not been insulting nor had i claimed to be superior once in this thread [*not demeaning or arrogant, but it is wrong]
...
Look! an economics thread not in the FB ... course .. you missed it because you care more about the miniscule effort i put in to this thread with good intentions than you did the topic at hand. Three cheers for priorities!
...
The shallow comment was directed at how you approach this argument, you're here for no other purposes than your own. I find it shallow, cry more.
...
Next time i go over your head take your own advice and read till it makes sense.
If you like, I could dig through the treasure trove you provided in the Iraq soldier thread too. :thumbsup:
I did not get into a pissing match about the definition of the word until he refused to see the obvious point i was making about common sense. Where the hell have you been?
So when you do it, it's just reasserting an 'obvious point' but when we do it, its an an 'argument' that servers no purpose because we are inflexible.
That being said i have better things to do with my time that i care much more about that repeating myself
That hasn't seem to have stopped you. You managed two more posts before I got back from class even. :coco:
You're the one who started in with personal insults calling me high and mighty.
Funny, considering that was actually a response to an insult from you. If we want to be real technical, the insults started in the Iraq soldier thread where we had this same discussion and discovered it was you and Sneaky who were insulting

I did not intend the 'high and mighty attitude' as an insult. Rather it was part of a question about how you were coming off. The rest of my posts following that were neutral towards you until you started getting nasty. You made it personal in post 206 with your opening paragraph:
Mokk said:
I see, did you know you could stroke you ego just a functionally in PM if you aren't interested in public opinion? I didn't ignore it, it was an ignorant statement, don't want 3rd parties involved? Take it to a private place. On a related note how many derails does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?
And you only get more insulting from there, but you can just see my big block of quotes from you above to see most of those gems.

I've noticed something interesting about your interaction in political threads lately Mokk. You refuse to state a viewpoint. You'll gladly jump in and attack others, but you won't state your own view. I tried to drag one out of you in the Iraq soldier thread and you threw a tantrum. You say I don't welcome people into discussions, which is wrong. I do welcome people to jump in...assuming they lay down their cards and show where they stand. Reminds me of the John Kerry strategy, don't have a position on anything and you can't be criticized.
 
Darkdante said:
I had to google "tribal sovereignty" to figure out what it was talking about. I think most of us would stumble over that too. Anyway, let's not make this thread worse by spamming with Bushisms...everyone makes grammatical mistakes everyday and they go unnoticed because there isn't a reporter recording everyword.
 
Mokk said:
As much as i'd love to be with you on this one in a classroom it's neccessary to check your personal views at the door when concerning things of this nature not only for job security but for the sake of the student's education. I'm kinda with both parties involved on this:

If the students felt that strongly about what was said or the issue of free speech to protest beans to them, i'm all for it.

If the school honestly didn't feel the teacher was providing any opening for opposing opinions then they were right in their suspension of the teacher.

Learning is about free idea exchange not propagandist bantering in the classroom. i wasen't there, i don't know what was said, maybe it wasen't as bad as that.

Unfortunately there is no direct tie to the government or the powers that be in this one so it's a huge shrugfest. As a teacher you know when entering into that sorta subject matter you walk the line with your administrative bosses.


Not only this how is it Bush's fault the teacher can't do his job propperly and is punished for it by other people not under his people.
 
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