Adolf Bush, Free speech what is that?

[yaminotenshi]

yami isn't too great at checking his facts it would seem.

{Um...} Funny but I posted direct evidence and all you have is conjecture. This girl has done her homework, and you've spouted profanity in the vain attempt to gain standing. Your logic fails as does your review of what has been presented. You cannot rewrite history simply because you ally yourself with the Republican Party.

 

[Raivyn]

On to Raivyn.

I suggest that you read the USA Patriot act that GWB has so fervently backed and supported and was recently struck down on sections for renewal do to Unconstitutionality. This act allowed Government institutions to conduct unlawful search and seizures as well as illegal wire taps without evidenciary support or a judge issued warrant. The only required premise was that they brand you a suspected terrorits or having ties or in league with suspected terrorists. Now, just because this hasn't happened to you personally does not mean it is not a circumvention of your basic Constitutional
bill of rights. Look up the fourth amendment if you don't believe me.

Funny thing about this is a little thing called probable cause. I have read the patriot act, and I am very familiar with the constitution. It would seem you aren't.

I'm having a hard time with your posting because you seem to be so against ignorance, yet you're simply regurgitating the same BS I've heard for years and years.

How could you forget about probable cause if you're directly citing the 4th ammendment? Either you're a strict interpreter of the constitution or you're not. You can't just apply one part of an ammendment and ignore another. Probable cause fits directly into unreasonable search and seizure.

I could rant for an hour or more but why bother, I'm virtually certain nothing will penetrate your pre-conceived notions of righteousness and certainty.

Our entire economy is in flux. Unemployment is still at an all time high. The stock exchange has barely recovered its former numbers prior to 9/11 and the inflated home prices has put the market in an inexorable down turn. In California alone the market is prepared to crash in the next 2-3 years. Conveniently after Bush has left office this will fall into the lap of our Governor and other officials to deal with.

So many things wrong with this statement...

Unfortunately, you have your facts askew here as well. The cuts to our military supposedly done by Clinton were signed by Bush Senior. Look it up. Bush Sr. authorized the closing of Norton and Edwards here in California. As well as decommissioning half the North Pacific fleet. He closed several bases across the country and signed this into effect after the conflict in Iraq had been completed; Which didn't happen until 2 years after Clinton was already President. Bush is not considered GOP by a good number of republicans. His foolish decisions have not only cost a substantial portion of money and placed us in an even deeper defecit than we have ever seen; But we have also circumvented the UN and Geneva convention making Americans look like Conquistadores and World Police rather than a responsible member of the International Community. All of which we helped found and swore to uphold post WWII. That is why I am sad. Sorry Raivyn.

This one too...

 

[Raivyn]

{Um...} Funny but I posted direct evidence and all you have is conjecture. This girl has done her homework, and you've spouted profanity in the vain attempt to gain standing. Your logic fails as does your review of what has been presented. You cannot rewrite history simply because you ally yourself with the Republican Party.

Please show me where I have 'spouted profanity' in this brief exchange in a 'vain attempt to gain standing'.

Other than that the rest of this statement is uppity and ill conceived.

 

[Raivyn]

oh man, I forgot to lol at your assumptions.

 

[yaminotenshi]

See earlier post in response to your outlandish statements Rayvin. I present evidence and you present conjecture. Probable cause does not mean "I believe your associated with terrorists", because that is the only probable cause required with the USA patriot act. And yes, I'm quite familiar with the constitution that requires writs and warrants with evidenciary support be levied before search and seizure can be enacted. The USA patriot act circumvents this and you know it. Additionally, any financial analyst will tell you that California's housing economy is about to burst due to the incredible influx in pricing. The average median home being 500k plus while the average median income being 35k. Unemployment rates have risen. Check your aerospace numbers. Once again, its conjecture that your spouting. Show me one peice of solid evidence and I will be happy to concede position. Until then
you've simply exuded a staunchly leftist position and are unable to back your position with solid evidence.

 

[yaminotenshi]

Excuse the earlier quote. Firestreaks profanity got snipped unfortunately.

 

[Raivyn]

See earlier post in response to your outlandish statements Rayvin. I present evidence and you present conjecture. Probable cause does not mean "I believe your associated with terrorists", because that is the only probable cause required with the USA patriot act. And yes, I'm quite familiar with the constitution that requires writs and warrants with evidenciary support be levied before search and seizure can be enacted. The USA patriot act circumvents this and you know it. Additionally, any financial analyst will tell you that California's housing economy is about to burst due to the incredible influx in pricing. The average median home being 500k plus while the average median income being 35k. Unemployment rates have risen. Check your aerospace numbers. Once again, its conjecture that your spouting. Show me one peice of solid evidence and I will be happy to concede position. Until then
you've simply exuded a staunchly leftist position and are unable to back your position with solid evidence.

California Housing Market != U.S. Housing market.

P.S. - still waiting on you to back up your previous allegation. I'd really like to know where I cursed at you.

As for providing only 'conjecture' I really must apologize. This conversation is fairly low priority for me atm and I'm not giving it my all.

 

[Raivyn]

Excuse the earlier quote. Firestreaks profanity got snipped unfortunately.

oh but where's mine?

 

[yaminotenshi]

The housing market is similar in Washington and Oregon. That is why the fed is raising rates. To try and stem the growing tide of inflation. I asked that you excuse it because you included Firestreak's statement within your Quote. I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for your statements. Thus far you've done nothing.

 

[Raivyn]

The housing market is similar in Washington and Oregon. That is why the fed is raising rates. To try and stem the growing tide of inflation. I asked that you excuse it because you included Firestreak's statement within your Quote. I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for your statements. Thus far you've done nothing.

You're all over the place with your arguments here. Lemme help you out. It's not a good idea to make blanket statements on issues with too many factors to count; ie: the housing market. You can speculate all you want but unless you're an economist I really don't want to hear it.

You must have missed the evidence I provided in my first post of this conversation. I'm going to check up on what you said about Bush. Sr. and the pacific fleet, even though it sounds like a load. Last chance to backpedal and save face.

PS: Practice your close reading - you seem to have missed a great many things.

 

[yaminotenshi]

You have made several large statments and have thus far produced nothing. You're going to 'check up'? You boldly stated how it was Clinton that shut these bases down. Now your changing your story and you're going to check up on it? LMAO you have to be kidding. I have made several direct arguments and produced facts. Now you need to check my facts just to see if you even have a case? Where are your facts about Clinton's closures? Where is your evidence refuteing the Patriot Act? Where is your evidence showing a stable and growing economy under the Bush Administration? Do you have any? Or are you just a typical GOP Clone spouting the propaganda they set forth for you. Where is your evidence???? You've already backpedaled. I have already stated facts and have been more than happy to concede position in the light of evidence. Do you know how to debate?

There. I dare you to respond with a coherant and lucid responce.

 

[Raivyn]

You have made several large statments and have thus far produced nothing. You're going to 'check up'? You boldly stated how it was Clinton that shut these bases down. Now your changing your story and you're going to check up on it? LMAO you have to be kidding. I have made several direct arguments and produced facts. Now you need to check my facts just to see if you even have a case? Where are your facts about Clinton's closures? Where is your evidence refuteing the Patriot Act? Where is your evidence showing a stable and growing economy under the Bush Administration? Do you have any? Or are you just a typical GOP Clone spouting the propaganda they set forth for you. Where is your evidence???? You've already backpedaled. I have already stated facts and have been more than happy to concede position in the light of evidence. Do you know how to debate?

There. I dare you to respond with a coherant and lucid responce.

Oho man. Hey - I'm gonna go play some poker, have a beer or two, bs with my friends, chillax and enjoy my St. Patty's Day. Maybe when I come back to this thread you'll have grown up enough to be able to have an intelligent conversation without ignoring things I say, or over-reacting to simple statements I make.

FYI There are only small portions of your info I wish to check up on. It should be known that every president closes bases. It should also be known that I have no idea where you got your information but I'm going to look - hence 'check up on it'. If you haven't gathered yet I'm barely engaged in this conversation. I was engaged 2 days ago when I made the earlier post but right now I have a ton of stuff to do. Bad timing. Anyways, I've got to head out. Ciao.

 

[yaminotenshi]

Absolutely. Every president closes bases. Bush Sr. is responsible for dismantling a great portion of our Military strength built during the Regan administration. I find it laughable that you spokes~hole the GOP position on the Clinton presidency. You refuse to legitimize the facts that I have presented and respond with conjecture and insult. Grow up? Perhaps that is something you should apply introspectively before brandishing at me. Go drink it up, bs and enjoy your St. Patties day. Facts are facts. Bring something bigger to the table than your opinion and loosely grounded in truth statments from the GOP weekly news before you come back to the table. Learn to debate as well.

 

[Raivyn]

Also - a parting shot;

Did I say anything in my statement about the pacific fleet? No. I listed thing specifically cut by Clinton. The figures I have stated have contributed to large problems with op-tempo and logistics, not to mention efficiency overall. Decommissioning ships in a fleet in an area of the world where we have many allies to assist is not the same as what I listed. Screw your head on tighter and stop avoiding my points with topic-change.

 

[Raivyn]

Protip: I don't read the GOP weekly news nor am I a Republican. Assumptions make an ass out of you and me. Wait... just you really.

Grow up? Perhaps that is something you should apply introspectively before brandishing at me.

I really don't think so;

There. I dare you to respond with a coherant and lucid responce.

Do you Double-Dog Dare me? Seriously, if that doesn't scream "last one to the monkey bars is a rotten egg" then I don't know what does.

 

[yaminotenshi]

Oh and as far as my information just take a look at Public records files signed by one George Herbert Walker Bush regarding the closure. He dismantled the Pacific fleet and decommissioned more than 60% of our Naval strength in the pacific. All the lost jobs militarily as well as revenue is directly attributed to him. You have stated what republican president would shut down on the military. This is a direct rebuttle of such a statement. All of your blase spokeshole statments have been refuted with evidence and you have produced nothing thus far. As I said, enjoy your day. I wish no ill will and will not turn this into a personal slander fest, but for pete's sake, come strong with your debate or go home.

 

[Raivyn]

Oh and as far as my information just take a look at Public records files signed by one George Herbert Walker Bush regarding the closure. He dismantled the Pacific fleet and decommissioned more than 60% of our Naval strength in the pacific. All the lost jobs militarily as well as revenue is directly attributed to him. You have stated what republican president would shut down on the military. This is a direct rebuttle of such a statement. All of your blase spokeshole statments have been refuted with evidence and you have produced nothing thus far. As I said, enjoy your day. I wish no ill will and will not turn this into a personal slander fest, but for pete's sake, come strong with your debate or go home.

You don't want to? As if I don't notice your subtle insults. :eyeroll:

More later.

 

[yaminotenshi]

There. I dare you to respond with a coherant and lucid responce.

No actually it screams to directly challenge you to debate me directly instead of using cheap chideing remarks in the attempt to bolster your already weak position. I specifically named things that have been removed to weaken our country's military strength by a republican president. You again avoid your own statments. Or is it just that you can't back up what you've brought to the table.

 

[yaminotenshi]

Also - a parting shot;

Did I say anything in my statement about the pacific fleet? No. I listed thing specifically cut by Clinton. The figures I have stated have contributed to large problems with op-tempo and logistics, not to mention efficiency overall. Decommissioning ships in a fleet in an area of the world where we have many allies to assist is not the same as what I listed. Screw your head on tighter and stop avoiding my points with topic-change.

So the removal of a fleet so instrumental in the war in Desert Storm is non essential to the ops conducted by our military? And the removal of hundreds of thousands of military personnel and the cutting of a Combat Soldiers pay(GWB jr put in for this just last year) doesn't hurt our serving men and women?

How about the misinformation fed to the public about Pat Tillman by the pentagon and the Bush Administration. Why is no one up in arms about the shooting of ranger Pat Tillman and for over a year the current Bush administration covered it up in order to bolster their cause? Why was there no official inquiry? Why did the secretary of State and GWB come out on CNN speaking of his herosim and his choice to serve and how he fell bravely fighting the enemy when they knew he had been killed by friendly fire?

I'm pointing out the MANY discrepencies, idiosyncrasies and plain garbage the current administration has put out and you have backed them. Now I ask that you defend that position and every argument that you have put forth I have shot down with evidence to back it up. You have given me tons of your opinion. Take that with you. More to come later.

 

[Rones]

The average median home being 500k plus while the average median income being 35k. Unemployment rates have risen.

I'm curious as to your sources for those numbers. You complain of Raivyn's lack of sources, yet you do not better. Just posting numbers means little.

As for your complaints about unemployment:
Currently 4.8%
Had you read my earlier posts in this thread you would have seen this:

4-5% unemployment is actually full employment from a macroeconomics perspective. There always be forms of static, cyclical, and I forget the name of the third, but I can still describe ethem. Static unemployment comes from people having skills that don't match the demands of the economy, they are unemployed while they learn new skills. Cyclical comes from the growth and recession curve of the business cycle (google business cycle if you need further explanation of that). The final comes from people just having difficulty linking up with people wanting to hire them, such as new college graduates not knowing how to meet up and find the companies wanting to find them. These three types of employment will always exist in a capitalist system, and when minimized will result in a 4-5% unemployment rate according to macro-economists (I can provide sources when I get back to my dorm tommorow if need be).

As for your complaints that the stock market isn't well off, check here (not positive this link will work). While it is equalling where it was a few years back, this time it isn't built on a bubble, which is far more important in the long run.

So the removal of a fleet so instrumental in the war in Desert Storm is non essential to the ops conducted by our military?

Old battleships of the type used in WW2 are useless in the modern battlefield and were a waste of money. Maybe before you criticize Bush Sr so much for military cuts you should check this. Your sourceless argument gets shot up when you check this source which uses the governments budget database.

September 27, 2000

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- America's top military leaders told Congress on Wednesday that the U.S. military needs tens of billions of dollars in additional funds to reverse its recent decline in readiness, and to replace aging weapons and equipment.

Testifying before the Senate and House Armed Services Committees, [Clinton's] Joint Chiefs of Staff presented a unified front, saying budget cuts in the mid 1990s 'mortgaged the future' of the military."