All of a sudden, I'm confused :/

[Runekane]

I asked one of my LS members to start a 44-46 pt in CN and I'd be along shortly as I was farming in Davoi. He builds up a good base, but we just need a BLM and tank. Grab a BLM, and see a tank that I've partied before back in Valkurm (a taru PLD). The guy was nasty to all the people in the party and looked down on everybody. He's rank 10 and he speaks perfect English... is he the only one on the server, or what? (As in rank 10 NA) Anyway. We get there, and he says "Rune, let me ask you something"
"Sure"
This blew me away.
"Only TA once a fight, no more, no less"

... what? All through my ranks, I believed THF to be a damage dealer. I thought I was expected to do as much damage as I can do, and especially with a PLD in the group, tricking on another melee wouldn't be that big of a deal. ESPECIALLY if that other melee is a DRG/WAR with hate shedding jumps. Anyway, he got -insulted- when I said I could do as much dmg as a DRG or DRK, and asked me in a /tell "Can you out-dmg a BLM?"
"Of course not," I replied.
"Then your weak extra 3-400 dmg per fight will do us no good. I need to keep hate so BLM can do his job"

Basically this made me think that this guy wanted the BLM and DRG to take down the mob by themselves. (Party setup, by the way: RDM RDM BLM THF DRG PLD) I mean, I told this guy that I have a great reputation for doing what I do and everything, and he kept insisting that as a THF my ONLY role in a pt is hate sticking. This can't be true. I guess my questions are these...

1) Dragoon's Jump ability; does it BUILD hate or ERASE it? I'm talking about the level 10 ability... I was lead to believe all Jumps erased some hate, even if just a little for the level 10 one. This guy told me it built it...

2) What good does any job do for his party if he's not allowed to use his abilities to the fullest? This applies to leaders who stupidly to ask RDM to ONLY refresh, THF to ONLY TA once (yeah, this has only happened once to me though)... wouldn't this kinda be like asking the BLM to cast only 3 spells each fight? Or telling the WHM to slow down on the cures to save MP, or telling your BRD to keep only 1 song active at all times, not 2? Doesn't make sense to me...

3) Do any NA's on our server have rank 10 at all? I don't want to name names as this isn't the flame board, I'm just more curious. A lot of people in my LS seemed to believe this was an e-bay bought character. Any input on this, guys? :/

4) If THF isn't considered a damage dealer, than what good are they in a party? They hate they put on the tank is great, and allows others to kill the mob quickly, but I feel like I'm wasting a spot that could be taken by a "real" damage dealer in the party...

By the way, I'm doing about 300-400 on TA's on IT's, and anywhere from 500-620 on VB's on IT Flies and Exorays in CN...
5) is this about on pace of what a THF SHOULD be doing at my level? Or am I under the par?

Sorry for the long post, but I'd really appreciate some input :/ This experience has gotten me doubting myself...

 

[Villarel]

Here are my thoughts/comments/replies to your questions:

1) Only the DRG superjump sheds hate. Superjump is a Lv50 DRG ability and has a 5 min timer. So at Lv45 the DRG you are tricking onto will not be able to shed hate. The PLD will have to regain hate by with Provoke/Flash/Cure etc.

2) Your Q#2 was a comment. So no answer here.

3) There are numerous NA with rank 10 now. See me in game and I'll point them out for you. (I don't want to name people who are not on the board).

4) THF are decent damage delealers but once they get Trick Attack, their primary function is Hate controller. Their cumulative damage (over the course of the battle) will be less than the other damage dealers. However, THF WS combined with SATA can do considerable 1-shot damage.

Generally THF's Trick twice during a battle. Once at the start of the battle. At this time, the 2nd melee provokes first on the pull. The THF then tricks onto the tank, and the tank provokes. This first trick ensures that hate is planted on the tank.

The 2nd time where THF tricks is for skillchains. This is where the THF damage dealing capabilities are apparent. SATA with weapon skill does massive damage.

However there are complications. Since normally the mob will be facing the tank, the 2nd melee can either take the trick, or try to turn the mob away from the tank. If the 2nd melee takes the hit, the tank will have to try to regain hate. Turning the mob away from the tank is not an easy task either.

 

[Runekane]

Basically, I was confused why this Taru PLD was so worried about losing hate off 1 extra TA per fight, which is what I'd been accustomed to doing from 30 til present. Most times, I can't peel the hate off the PLD after tricking onto him once even if I wanted to. I was confused why a rank 10 player would only want me to trick once per battle for fear of losing hate. The fights would last longer from the lack of 300 dmg or 600 on a viper bite, and mages would spend more MP, etc. He was overly concerned about using too much MP up if I'd trick onto the DRG. Perhaps I just met a bad apple. I know I do my job very well, it just confused me that all of a sudden a rank 10 tells me I'm not doing it right at all.

 

[Keits]

You arnt really a damage dealer as a THF, even though damage is a side-effect of your job.

Its the same way for Samurai. Most of them think they are damage dealers. They arnt. Damage is just a side effect of what we do, and will never add up to the ammounts that a DRK BLM or RNG can reach.

As a THF after 30, your main focus is Hate-Control. This should be your priority. Your secondary function is to end skillchains. As you may or may not know, skillchain damage is *MOSTLY* dependant on the damage of the weaponskills that caused the chain (IE. the last one).

Does this do huge one-shot damage? Yes. But your main job is still Hate-Control. If this one-shot doesnt kill the mob, think about who will take all the Hate from this amazing attack. Is it someone sturdy enough to deal with it (IE. WAR, SAM, MNK)? Is this skillchain+burst going to finish the monster off? Etc, etc.

This concept is very hard for some people to wrap their minds around. Do you deal damage? Yeah. Are you a damage dealer? No, not really. If you understand, bravo. If not, I dont know what to tell you. :?

 

[Runekane]

Yes yes I understand all of that Keits... I just was dumbfounded that I was being asked to only use Sneak Attack once a fight. I want to contribute as much as I can to my parties, and I am near perfect at landing TA's on the tank at the beginning of the fight. Yes, I deal some damage, that's what I'm there for, a support fighter, MUCH like a samurai. The majority of my DMG DOES come from Renkeis, and I allow the BLM to go crazy-go-nuts with an insane MB. It's just that in my 45 levels as a THF, I'd not once been asked to hold back my abilities. I hadn't ever had a problem with a PLD controlling hate before after tricking back onto a DRK for some extra dmg, because the fight will last longer than a minute and my timers will be ready almost right away for the next pull. I don't like feeling like I'm being ineffective, and I felt that being asked to SATA only once per fight was doing it... that's all...

#1 job for Thief= Hate control. It's what we do, what nobody else can hope to do as good as us. (Don't want to get into a DRK/THF vs THF/xxx debate here...) I've realized this... lol Anyway, thanks for your responses

 

[Keits]

Hehe yeah it gets complicated at 60. Both DRK/THF and SAM/THF can before the hate control job better than THF/???.

 

[Courtney]

Actually, Rune you initially said he asked you to TA only once per fight, not SA...He seems to be implying that by keeping hate more strongly, the BLM can nuke heavier, although I'm not really seeing how your TA is affecting the hate balance between the tank and the BLM. (especially when there's a DRG to trick onto).

I am a RDM though so some of the finer points of hate control still elude me ...

 

[Faedryth]

OK rune, you know me bud. I know how to be a thief and i know you do too. Listen to your own opinion. I SAnTA every 60 on the 60 seconds man. As far as me not being a damage dealer, ludicrous. I simply DARE anyone to parse my damage compared to DRKs i play with. I wish i could but being on the PS2 i cant. Im sure it woudl be damn close. As yet i havent partied with one sporting some snipers and stuff so i guess they are about average to a lil abover, not uber. I have a lot of the best gear i can have at my level and im seriously doing some sick damage. Runekane if you are hitting 620 VB's then you are outdoing myself even. Also i consider the damage done by the SC to be yours as well so you might as well tack an extra 250-350 on that number. Wow you are hitting close to 1000 a fight if things go well. Coupled with the fact that you probably get 3 SAnTA in a fight cause i know you are smart enough to use it as the puller is pulling so you get two off in like 20 seconds like a good thief should. That brings your total up to lets say 1500 just from those three alone. Now daggers dont do a lot of damage ill admit, but you add in DOT and that brings your total up. Also i like to use my bow. Now sadly the Composite is not as good as it was in Gairlage, but i still do about 2-3 times as much as a dagger shot. Id confidently say im hitting 1500-2500 damage a fight now. I have no idea how much HP these guys have, but that seems like an awful lot.

 

[Keits]

I'm sorry, but a well equiped THF's damage wont hold a candle to a well equiped DRKs. Unfortunatly, 98% of the population of DRK players are complete idiots who have no idea how to equip or play their job.

THF is not a damage dealer. THF is hate control and skillchains. Yes you deal some damage, but it does not add up to what the read damage dealers do.

 

[Villarel]

From's Pupusa's log parser post for levels 15-17:

Thief (01)
Total Fights: 40
Average Damage: 65.6
Average Percent: 16.92
Average Accuracy:
Estimated DPS: 0

Dark Knight (01)
Total Fights: 40
Average Damage: 125.025
Average Percent: 30.946
Average Accuracy:
Estimated DPS: 0

I'm too sure how to read this, but it looks like a DRK will outdamage a THF. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Runekane]

Yes, at levels 15-17. Also you have to take into account how well each player is equipped, etc. At 30, THF comes into its own light and almost does twice as much damage as they did before (with the addition of TA). Plus, if I'm being out-dmged by a DRK, how is it that with my first hit of the fight not counting against me, I end up pulling aggro at the end with a simple independant Sneak attack, while all I've been doing is normal attacks? The DRK isn't pulling aggro when they sell out, so basically, near the end of -MY- fights, apparently I'm doing more damage than a DRK if the creature chooses to face me and whiff a few times after just one sneak attack post 30, this is after I've tricked onto the tank and even sometimes after I've tricked onto a DRK. That tells me that I'm doing as much or more damage than the DRKs I party with.

 

[Runekane]

And sorry for the back-to-back post, but I do agree with Keits, that a well-equipped THF cannot hang with a well-equipped DRK, but isn't this the scenario we hope for anyway? The faster you kill stuff, the better. And it IS kinda dragging your party down when your DRK, who is supposed to be #1 or #2 damage dealer, is being out-dmged by someone else who is taking up another role, such as THF in hate control. And a lot of DRK out there DO think that solely by being a DRK they can do massive damage. Equipment, equipment, equipment! You can be the best player in the world, but if you're not up to date with DECENT up to date equipment for your job setup, you may as well be 5 levels lower than you are. Sadly to say, most DRK out there are poorly equipped By the way, where have all the MNK's gone in the level 40-50 range? I haven't seen one in months!

 

[Villarel]

At 30, THF comes into its own light and almost does twice as much damage as they did before (with the addition of TA). Plus, if I'm being out-dmged by a DRK, how is it that with my first hit of the fight not counting against me, I end up pulling aggro at the end with a simple independant Sneak attack, while all I've been doing is normal attacks? The DRK isn't pulling aggro when they sell out, so basically, near the end of -MY- fights, apparently I'm doing more damage than a DRK if the creature chooses to face me and whiff a few times after just one sneak attack post 30, this is after I've tricked onto the tank and even sometimes after I've tricked onto a DRK. That tells me that I'm doing as much or more damage than the DRKs I party with.

Keep in mind the DRK is gaining new active and passive abilities too. He's not was a glorified warrior. Yes, the THF gets Trick attack at 30. But by 30 the DRK would have his 2nd Physical Attack up and Sould Eater. Additionally, DRK/THF post 60 also gets trick attack (would already have sneak attack). By Lv60 the DRK would have his 3rd Physical Attack UP, and a whole slew of ABS spells, Drain, Aspir, etc.

I can't explain why in your particular PT your DRK is not pulling any aggro. Every PT and every battle is different.

If you cause a lot of damage in a short time you will get hate. Doesn't matter if its cause by a THF's Sneak Attack or a BLM's MB. Damage/time... if this quotient is large then you will get the mob's attention.

High damage 1-shot hits will draw aggro. A THF's 1-shot SATA WS may be higher than the DRK. However, the cumulative damage of DRK will probably be more than a THF.

 

[Firestreak]

Well being the Taru Paladin described, I thought I would state my opinion. Which is that when I am assembling a party and I recruit certain jobs to fill certain functions I think about what will create the most efficient party. If I wanted a pure damage dealer, I would have a party with all blackmage for damage. Now if you're going to SATA damage dealers, it means thay have to hold back, or I have to pump unneeded MP and I can't chain efficiently. Now our party had a dragoon, and if you wanted to do a second SATA, I merely asked to make sure he had his high jump so he could shed the added hate you gave him. What you do by SATAing a damage dealer without the ability to shed hate, is you are adding the hate from your attack to all the possible hate he generates himself. Yes I COULD hold hate, but that's just a sloppy way to run a party and if your plan is to do as much damage as possible you're playing the wrong job so just give it up and stop being one of those people whose plays a job as it's not designed to be situated into the party.
I'll also point out I have no idea how good of a Thf you are anyway considering the first mob you tried pulling was a link and after we escaped you disbanded and made us wait 20 minutes to find a replacement.

In short> If Thiefs think of themselves as pure damage generators, then why would anyone ever even think of inviting a THF into their party? I'll just invite a dark knight or a blackmage because they can cause great damage and don't have to pass extra hate onto damage dealers to do it.

End of story.

Edit: Upon reading your post in its entirety....
No I did buy my character through ebay, no I am not the only Rank 10 NA. And no I do not have an attitude of superiority as you seem to be describing. But when I give advise and people are unwilling to listen I an and will get testy. People who knew the game better than me gave me advise and I took it and learned from it, perhaps you should try to do the same instead of just assuming that by your level all your tactics are perfect

 

[Xtereem]

I will refrain from commenting on the issue of THFs and hate control, because I simply do not have the experience with such jobs to give an effective account. However, I will say that, properly equipped, and in terms of cumulative damage over periods of time, THFs can in no way outdamage any such "pure" damage dealers. If a leader invites a THF for damage reasons alone, I will without a doubt question his competency, sanity ... or both.

Furthermore, I would like testify for Firestreak that his account is definitely *not* bought off Ebay, having pretty much gone through rank 6-10 missions with him. (though I'm currently stuck at rank 9 because of unfortunate runs against the final BC fight on M9-2 >< >< ><;; ).

 

[Farys]

What you do by SATAing a damage dealer without the ability to shed hate, is you are adding the hate from your attack to all the possible hate he generates himself. Yes I COULD hold hate, but that's just a sloppy way to run a party

So you're basically saying that you could have hold the hate but didn't because YOU didn't wanted it to be so? Now that's a new way to play as PLD. Teach us more please.

 

[Firestreak]

You either did not read my post carefully or your mind is too weak to understand what I am saying. Either way there's no point trying to explain again.

 

[Corosato]

45 THF here.

If I get into a party and they don't let me do my job of Hate Control and ending Skillchains I'm out. End of story.

SATA on tank to start.

SATA to end SKillchain to finish the mob quicker.

I'm not saying Firestreak is wrong, I'm just saying that if I'm not allowed to SATA after planting hate on the tank you'd be better off replacing me with another DD. But if you let me do my job, mobs fall quicker.

 

[Runekane]

Firestreak-

From my first post that started this thread, my intentions were to display that I did not understand why I was asked to SATA only once per fight (unless in skillchain, also hence the title: "All of a sudden, I'm confused").
I've already stated that in -every- party I had been in up to that point I was asked to SATA as much as possible. Then I get someone asking me to do different, which is basically asking me to undo about 2 months of habbit already formed. Can you understand why I'd be confused when after 2 months I'm being told I'm doing it incorrectly? Perhaps your way is right, and I've practiced separating TA and SA if I use it in the middle of fights (TAing onto the tanks and SAing onto the mob from behind of course). I simply had some questions and I'm deeply sorry if you took offense to the questions. Please push your egos aside and just honestly answer my questions

You reached rank 10? (Congratulations!) I'm glad you could reach the end of the ingame storyline (for now), and it's a testament to your devotion to the game. I wasn't aware us Americans have made it that far long, and I didnt' mean to step on any toes to question if your account had been purchased on E-bay (hell, if someone asked me if mine was bought, I'd take that as a compliment, not an insult).

In any event, I can do simple math. SATA onto the tank at the start of the fight DOES add 300 or so damage to his hate. That's 300 up he already has on the BLM, DRK, etc. In normal situations, a Paladin -can- hold fantastic hate even against a DRK going crazy with his offensive abilities at the expense of probably 40 or so more MP, and this is without the aid of a THF (this is from my personal experience). Add in a THF, and even with 1 extra SATA onto a damage dealer, the PLD will still hold hate if he's been provoking every 30 seconds and casting every now and then. And, since when has 40 or so MP been an issue for a Taru PLD, especially with a RDM there to keep him refreshed? It's the Galkan PLD that should be worried about that type of thing, I believe.

Give it up and stop playing a job I don't know how to play? I'm sorry I haven't hit 70+ in one job yet, let alone 40+ in another job. I don't have -near- the play experience you do, apparently, and as for advice, I didn't ask for any from you. You just told me to do something and expected me to do it without giving me any rightful reason to do so. I -still- don't understand, as I -do- continue to SATA onto the DRKs every now and then. Hell, I've even SATAed -twice- onto a DRK in a battle, and the PLD still held hate and guess what? Ended the fight with half or more of his MP bar.

Links happen on pulls, especially in Crawlers Nest. I thought you could at least understand that, and we hit the spot when it was under-camped so there were linkable mobs everywhere, especially Exorays and Crawlers. Funny how you decline to note that. Apparently you want to turn this into a flamewar, which I'm not particularly interested in. I in no way think my tactics are perfect, which is why I'm trying new things, varying my pace of attacks, equipment, subjobs, etc. I -am- willing to learn, only if the source is offering welcome advice, not outright negative criticism.

I still have fun playing this game, damnit, and I'm not going to let a stupid incident like that change anything. Firestreak, I love you man *sniff* *offers hug*

 

[Firestreak]

I didn't take offense to your question, and I didn't take offense to your leaving the PT or getting the link. It wasn't even the ebay comment.
I took offense to...
"I've partied before back in Valkurm (a taru PLD). The guy was nasty to all the people in the party and looked down on everybody. He's rank 10 and he speaks perfect English... is he the only one on the server, or what? (As in rank 10 NA) Anyway. "
I'm sorry if you felt like I was talking down to you, but to be honest I do my best to give people respect that is equal to that which they give me. Many people are easily offended by suggestion, and many are quite willing to shout at a older player as some stuck up ego maniac. I gave you a suggestion. If I recall I even put a please in it. When you questioned it, I tried my best to explain why I think it is so. Now I'm sorry if this is going to open me to ridicule but when I party at lower levels(relative to my main job) THFs tend to do the opposite of what I'd like them to. Should I just not say anything, or avoid partying with thiefs, or what? My job is to keep hate, and your job is to help me manage hate while damaging the monster. We should be working together for the same goal. My purpose as paladin is to allow damage dealers to do the most amount of damage possible without being hit and either killed or forcing us into downtime. I have a certain amount of resources. I have provoke every 30, I have shield bash and sentinel and I have a bunch of MP. None of these are infinite and the better they're managed the longer we can go without rest. That's why I gave you this suggestion. Not that I couldn't have held hate and not that I don't like a THF doing damage. To be honest I think I exhibit respect for the THF class by attempting to explain the ends to which it is most useful, because, playing to SPAM sata whenever available, you are giving it an added use of damage while taking away from it's use of hate control. This robs a thief of what makes it a job worthy of a slot in a great party, because played alternatively I might as well get some other job that is better suited for raw damage. But what if instead of 300 on me, 300 on someone else and the hate all canceled out, it was 300 on me. Then all other damage dealers could hit 300 more damage without getting aggro. That's the power of SATA. But it's not something that's as easy to see as jamming it just for the damage.