all out war in Gaza

[Bladewind]

Not our fight who cares...

I don't know much about this conflict, so wont go into detail, but lol at the quote. Who was it asked why the rest of the world thinks all americans are stupid?

 

[Rayn]

I don't know much about this conflict, so wont go into detail, but lol at the quote. Who was it asked why the rest of the world thinks all americans are stupid?

Look at our head of state for the past 8 years, pretty simple answer really.

 

[Firestreak]

I don't know much about this conflict, so wont go into detail, but lol at the quote. Who was it asked why the rest of the world thinks all americans are stupid?

Most people are pretty stupid, no matter what country they're from. Anyone who thinks "ALL" Americans are stupid, is just stupid themself. If it's a prevailing attitude, it just proves my first statement.

 

[Arctyrael]

I guess we should give USA and Canada Back to the Mexican citizens because their ancestors lived here years ago. There's way too many nazi's in this thread so i will just post one respond and i will not be posting anything else.

Except for this little bit... I would venture to say no one in this thread is a Nazi.

Dejavu wants the United States to keep its nose out of business that has little to do with the United States. Dayner is humanizing citizens of Gaza, not dehumanizing them. Above all, I don't see anyone in here saying Israelis or Palestinians should die.

No, I see no Nazis, just people that want the fucking ridiculous fighting between one group of ignorant people and another group of ignorant people to stop -- though I will concede something to Israel: they are thus far the only side willing to work for a peace between their selves and Palestine.

 

[Pompidou]

Lobbing rockets from schools and hospitals shouldn't be a get out of jail free card against retaliation. There was a ceasefire. The next action was rocket fire by Hamas. Anything that happens after that is fair game. I hope Israel is merciless. There are no innocent civilians. There are only terrorists and corpses. Corpses don't fire rockets from schools and hospitals, praying that retaliation kills civilians to go on a PR spree. They don't do this during a ceasefire. The only co-ownership of Gaza that will last is Israelis occupying the surface, and the Gazans six feet under it. Terrorists or corpses - we should make as many of the latter as possible. General Sherman said that war is cruel, and the crueler it is, the quicker it ends. His ruthlessness sped up Union victory in the US civil war. Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki sped up victory over Japan in WWII. Sometimes you have to do a little evil now to do a lot of good later. How many lives would've been saved if somebody would've just went all out and actually "won" this war, instead of halfassing it for decades with truces every couple of weeks?

 

[chinis]

I didn't wanna say anything about this, but after reading replies from people here.. It amazes me how people can't just see people as people because of some stupid ass book. Fuck it, let's start killing each other because you like Harry Potter more than Goosebumps. It's basically the same thing what these people are doing. Hey we don't think alike, let's kill each other! I have no faith in humanity and hope Yellowstone blows and kill us all or something. Such bullshit.

Edit: Israel attacked a UN run school. Those damn kids, plotting to killing innocent Israelis, right?

 

[Pompidou]

You aught to be more specific. Israel attacked a UN run school used as a munitions dump, and they were returning fire from mortar fire from within the school. Two of the dead were low level Hamas agents, two of four from a team that was firing the rockets. So yeah, the children weren't members of the Hamas strategy division or anything. They weren't there for plotting. Hamas has adults for that. They don't need kids for devising terror strategy. They need kids for human shields. Fortunately, it didn't work. Kids don't stop shrapnel. Did the two hamas agents think Israel would be handtied and not retaliate, so long as they waged their attack surrounded by kids? The news article says people in Gaza say there's no place safe. That's a good thing. The enemy flocks to the safe places to fight from, hoping noone will fight back. If Hamas was attacking from legit warzones, Israel would be targeting legit warzones. Because let's face it, no matter how evil you think Israel might be, they certainly recognize target priority, and in the scale of who needs to die first, the militants with the mortars are higher up than the school kids. Those kids would still be alive had Hamas picked better places to break truces from.

 

[Dejavu]

I don't know much about this conflict, so wont go into detail, but lol at the quote. Who was it asked why the rest of the world thinks all americans are stupid?

What is so wrong with my position. We have a couple options none of them very good.

A. We side with Israel and make it a full scale WW3.

B. We side with Palistine and ... well this one is not gonna happen because Christians are more like jews than they are like muslims and hell we believe in one true god.

C. We do nothing. They both kill eachother until they realize just how retarded the fight is and come to a peaceful end or... someone wins and there is still peace we may not like the outcome but at least there is an outcome.

D. We secretly fund the war and help the Israelis without getting our hands that dirty but making sure that we keep some level of denail but to anyone with a brain it will be obvious.

What do we get out of throwing more fuel on the flames by providing them with guns and alliances. We get to spend a ton of money and kill our own citizens trying to protect the citizens of another country.

I dont want them to fight but at this point i say let them fight but dont get involved and turn it into WW3 which ultimately will happen.

We choose A heres the sequence of events
Israel invades gaza
US helps Israel
Russia and Iran help palistinians.
EU comes to back Israel and the US Israeli effort
China and all muslim nations join palistine

Congrats WW3 and Nostradamus you are 1 step closer to being correct about 2012

We choose B
Yea this one is implausible...

We choose C
Lots of Israelis and Palestinians are gonna die Syria or egypt will probably get involved and the all the retarded bleeding hearts in the UK will probably step in and occupy Israel and keep this war going for a good long time. But the US will save a lot of money and get out of our current recession a lot faster .. lets let someone else flip the bill... Maybe Israel just falls and in that case... it wouldnt be the first time but i stand by my previous statement and say... NOT OUR PROBLEM!

We choose D
Ultimately this is the one that we are going to do it will most likely turn out alot like Option A but over a much longer time scale..


So... to answer your question.. i am not a typical American.. this should make you happy but it fucking pisses me off to no end. We will end up coming to the rescue of Israel and we will end up provoking a response from Russia and because of the spending problem that the US has and the fact that China likes Russia alot more than they like us and China holds most of the USs debt i believe that the US will fall from grace due to this particular conflict and our upcoming role in it when the US Dollar crashes and the US economy is crippled due to hyperinflation... at that point everyone in the US wont give a shit about who controls the Holy Land we will only care about how we are going to get our next meal. There are several dominoes that are currently in front of us and the problem is due to our "relationship" with Israel we dont even get to hit the first one or decide if we want to for that matter.

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotes.
How Can You Tell That Your God is Man-made? If He Hates All the Same People You Do.

Then again.. that is a different debate entirely.

 

[Dayner]

You aught to be more specific. Israel attacked a UN run school used as a munitions dump, and they were returning fire from mortar fire from within the school. Two of the dead were low level Hamas agents, two of four from a team that was firing the rockets. So yeah, the children weren't members of the Hamas strategy division or anything. They weren't there for plotting. Hamas has adults for that. They don't need kids for devising terror strategy. They need kids for human shields. Fortunately, it didn't work. Kids don't stop shrapnel. Did the two hamas agents think Israel would be handtied and not retaliate, so long as they waged their attack surrounded by kids? The news article says people in Gaza say there's no place safe. That's a good thing. The enemy flocks to the safe places to fight from, hoping noone will fight back. If Hamas was attacking from legit warzones, Israel would be targeting legit warzones. Because let's face it, no matter how evil you think Israel might be, they certainly recognize target priority, and in the scale of who needs to die first, the militants with the mortars are higher up than the school kids. Those kids would still be alive had Hamas picked better places to break truces from.

well gaza is about 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and between 6 and 12 kilometers (4–7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 360 square kilometers (139 sq mi) also about 1.4 million Palestinian Arab live there .. they cant leave it if they want to due to the blockade , so there is no legit warzones due to its small size and they will be on the firing line

also about the UN school .... its was a school ;/
few pic but don't look at it if you have a weak heart

Spoiler:

and many more pics are aired on all arabs news

arabic news also say that about 629 Palestinians were killed as of 6 January; the civilian death toll was 200 as of January 5, including at least 75 children, while more than 2,700 have been injured. Hamas claims 10 of its fighters have been killed. Five Israelis (two soldiers and three civilians) have been killed in the same period by Palestinian rockets, and 5 soldiers were killed and 32 were injured during Israel's ground offensive.

i blame both party ,

Israeli for carrying out an collective punishment over Gaza Strip's entire 1.5 million people in response to "the actions of a few militants and using deadly force on them

Hamas for using Palestinians as civilian shields, firing rockets from within populated civilian areas, smuggles weapons and stoping anyone from leaving gaza

i already donor some of my blood for gaza at hospital may Allah/god help them

 

[Firestreak]

You completely misunderstand what's going on tactically.

For Hamas this is a propaganda war. For Israel this war is about "light touch."

Hamas has no air force. They have no significant, if any, anti air craft abilities. Let that sink in for a moment. Israel attacks by air, and by sea, and Hamas... cannot respond. they cannot defend themself. All they can do is threaten and whine. This causes arabs around the world to protest and the extremists to blow themselves up. Israel doesn't need any help to "win," depending on your definition of win.

The reason that Israelies are on the ground there, is to take out military targets with minimum civilian death. It's not possible at this point to take them out with the airforce without extreme civilian causalties. I'm not talking about the 200-300 or so that have died. I'm talking about thousands being killed daily - because that's what would happen. It sounds stupid to hear, but the reality is that the land based assault is going on to minimize civilian losses - not to help a tactical "win/lose" scenario. If Israel wanted, they could completely wipe out Hamas by air, but they'd kill so many thousands of civilians that they would not want to.

Instead you have these land incursions, where some civilians die, and it's sad, but it's a hell of a lot better than it could be - especially considering Hamas' tactics of hiding among them.

It's Hamas' attempt for their own victory though, as they'd define it. They can't invade Israel. They can't repel the IDF on their own land. They can get Israel to kill civilians, in hopes that it turns support against them - and they can hide in holes until Israel eventually leaves to then turn around and declare themselves the winners, regardless of if Israel accomplishes all its objectives, which doesn't include overthrowing Hamas, and then leave.

Ideally, the people of the Gaza strip eventually get tired of Hamas' bullshit and get rid of them. It's unlikely though, as it would require them acknowledging that it was Hamas who made them targets, before it was Israel that pulled the trigger.

The real loser here is the innocent people of the Gaza, many of whom do not want Hamas there. What can they do? I don't know. Overthrow Hamas? Is that feasable? I can't say.

Hopefully at some point a stable Arabic nation who gives a shit about the well being of their people will step forward, offer to wipe out Hamas and take the land for themselves. That's the only solution I see.

 

[Firestreak]

My response not directed at Dayner.

 

[Rayn]

Dayner,

About the UN school what you didn't mention is that there were 2, TWO, militants firing within the vicinity of the school. Residents confirmed seeing militants firing rockets from there. Yes it's tragic that children are getting killed but SERIOUSLY these militants are USING civilians as shields.

 

[Dayner]

then take look at your own "western news"

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/07/israel.gaza.school/index.html

# U.N. sure no Palestinian militants fired from school hit by Israeli attack
# At least 40 people killed in Israeli artillery strike near U.N. school Tuesday
# Israel says that Hamas militants fired shells from school
# Israel: IDF responded to that fire, the tragic result was what we all know

even hamas say that they didnt fire anything from the school , but i don't believe them to tell the true

still guess you take U.N over hamas word ?

 

[Rayn]

1. They did not fire from the school but within the vicinity of the school. Artillery shells are not smart bombs.

2. You think Israel would just FIRE on a school just for the hell of it? You think they would fire on civilians let alone school children without being provoked?

3. Residents that lived near the school IDENTIFIED 2 militants firing mortars on a street NEXT to the school.

4. Artillery shells are not smart bombs and are not precise as some would like to believe.

5. Hamas is known and well documented to fire mortars and rockets within civilian enclaves.

6. Civilian death is collateral damage in a conflict and I'm sure that Israel is not just going into Gaza with guns ablazing killing everything on sight. They are not monsters they are defending themselves by taking out weapon stockpiles that Hamas has.

 

[chinis]

1. They did not fire from the school but within the vicinity of the school. Artillery shells are not smart bombs.

2. You think Israel would just FIRE on a school just for the hell of it? You think they would fire on civilians let alone school children without being provoked?

3. Residents that lived near the school IDENTIFIED 2 militants firing mortars on a street NEXT to the school.

4. Artillery shells are not smart bombs and are not precise as some would like to believe.

5. Hamas is known and well documented to fire mortars and rockets within civilian enclaves.

6. Civilian death is collateral damage in a conflict and I'm sure that Israel is not just going into Gaza with guns ablazing killing everything on sight. They are not monsters they are defending themselves by taking out weapon stockpiles that Hamas has.

About number 2, yes. Israel doesn't exactly have the best human rights record when it comes to Palestinians. Also, a freaking bomb for TWO guys with crappy rockets? Wouldn't sending a few soldiers over have been just as good without so much death? Send them in a tank if you're worried about getting shot or something. And no, I don't support Hamas, nor do I support Israel. They're both groups with guns that want their way and everyone else is just caught in the middle for the most part. But Israel's attacks are WAY out of proportion. 600+ dead as of today.

 

[Rayn]

Artillery rounds are terrible, but in a conflict what commander is going to tell a squad of soldiers, "Hey you guys. Go over there and check to see how many are firing at us." Part of being a commander of a group of men is minimizing your own losses. You don't send a group of men charging into an area where you have no recon for it would just be a No Man's Land like in WWI.

Your idea of a tank moving as vanguard with infantry in tow using the tank as a shield is the best way of advancing, but seeing that it is an urban conflict where there are numerous ways for snipers and rocket men to fire from at all angles if they so choose is another risk that a commander has to take into account.

Why is it so hard for people to see that HAMAS are firing rockets INTO ISRAEL? Even the fact that rockets started raining down in Israel right after the truce coupled with the fact that Hamas rockets have a greater range is a major cause of concern for Israel. So no they are not crappy rockets if they are able to reach further in Israel than before. If Hamas stopped firing their rockets at Israel and both sides took steps to at least working out a ceasefire towards coexising with one another would be great.

Another thing too that people are not remembering is that Hamas are firing their mortars and rockets even before the conflict amongst the civilian population. Gaza citizens are being used as HUMAN SHIELDS and no one is pointing that out and telling them to stop that? Hyprocisy at it's finest.

 

[chinis]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Hamas anymore than Israel. They're both warmongers as far as I know, breaking any kind of truce or compromise back and forth. They both do it, but my point is the amount of force they're putting into these attacks. Hamas fires a couple of rockets, Israel drops fucking white phosphorous on people who did nothing. It was on the news that they were attacking civilians for no reason other than to draw Hamas out I guess. If the citizens really do hate each other that much, then I couldn't care less. They could kill each all they want until there's none left. But it's just the fact that they're kind of powerless in the middle that pisses me off. To go with that Mexico/US thing, what if the cops decided to launch rockets at Mexico and Mexico just attacked where "they believe" them to be, and you happened to be in that area. It would suck and it's not your fault, and there's nothing you can do about it. I just can't see why we can't live in peace, I guess it's too hard for people to act civilized. I hope they blow each other up to hell so it just gets over with, since apparently a few people can destroy the lives of everyone else there.

 

[Pompidou]

A lot of the problem in this situation is the rest of the world. We had a situation where Hamas was firing rockets into Israel unprovoked, during a truce. Where was the world outrage? Where was the QCDN thread? There wasn't one, because it was just Israeli civilians being blown up. Not a big deal. Israel fights back, and THAT'S unacceptable? Now Egypt and France want to hold a discussion? They didn't give a damn when the attacks were one sided and Hamas was the aggressor. The news didn't give a damn about Hamas rockets blowing up busses and whatnot. The world doesn't give a damn when Israel loses civilians. Let a Palestinian get a papercut because he was startled by an Israeli, and suddenly people want answers.

 

[Valandil]

But it's just the fact that they're kind of powerless in the middle that pisses me off.

They are not powerless and they never have been powerless. They have always implicitly and even explicitly supported Hamas. They know who these people are, they know where to find them, they have allowed them to conduct themselves the way they have over the past 20 years. In the back of their minds they knew it would come to this and they did nothing to prevent it. Maybe this is a bad analogy but I think of it like this. If you're friends with someone who is drinking a party and they decide to drive and they cause an accident and kill someone else, then I feel that you are also significantly responsible for that death as well if you did nothing to prevent it, such as taking the keys, making the individual stop drinking, calling a cab, driving the person home yourself, or even going to the extreme of calling the cops to get the person off the streets. When you implicitly abet someone you're guilty by association. If you want the consequences to be different then you should rise up against those who are the true cause of the problem--the extremists who are hiding amongst you and behind you. If the people of Gaza had ousted the extremists from their community years ago then this war would be occuring somewhere other than Gaza right now.

 

[Firestreak]

The reason Hamas attacking Israel was not big news is because it was nothing new. The reason the world criticizes Israel and ignores Hamas is because they hold Israel to standards and do not view Hamas highly enough to criticize. To call it anti-semitism or hypocrisy I think confuses the issue. If Israel was a Christian state, the situation would be the same. To the majority of the world, blaming Hamas for acting like a bunch of lunatics is like blaming a dog for sniffing its own butt, they do not think they can do better than they can do, they do not view them as equals to have a discussion with.

That is how I look at it. I do not think it is fair, but there is some truth in it. I don't automatically throw my hat in on the line that every country has people who share the same dream as people in the west. If the dream for all is to go to school, and get a nice suburban house and raise children in peace, then Hamas would not be in power today. If the dream on the other hand is the destruction of Israel, and the forced spread of Islam all over the world, then mercy is wasted on these people.

The problem is that the reality is somewhere in between, where the reasonable are also the powerless. For innocent bystanders, who want nothing other than to live in peace, it's a terrible shame they should be hurt - regardless of where they happen to live, what religion they happen to believe in, what skin color they happen to have. It just sucks, and I wish there was a solution out there were they could be left alone but at the same time Israel could protect itself.

Unfortunately, the same people who condemn Israel's action offer no alternative solution that has any historical precedence of actually working.

But sympathy for the innocents wounded doesn't need to be interpreted as support for Hamas. However, Chinis, there's no reason though to draw parallels between Israel and Hamas. Israel don't use children as human shields. Israel doesn't fire rockets randomly into the Gaza strip, unprovoked, at nonmilitary targets. Israel has never advocated the wholesale destruction of the Gaza strip, or hailed people who intentionally murdered innocent children in cold blood as national heroes. To call everyone "equal" is to severely simplify and misinterpret a complex situation. To this end, I almost feel like some people denounce Israel just because they want to have an opinion, regardless of fact checking their opinion to know if there's any basis for it.