An ultimatum...

Nasya said:
Peregrine said:
I don't reply to the whole thing. I read the functional point, and what I read is the title that says "ultimatum" and 90 percent of the ensuing paragraphs that talk about mpk retaliation. I'm not missing much. One little sentence talked about mpk prevention. One. You want to call me out for nitpicking all but one sentence? I covered 30 sentences.
Click to expand...

While MPK retaliation is what got the majority of the post space on this forum, it is what i am talking about the least on our own. I gave it the most room here because it was the part that i expected (and rightly so) to get the most response on.

quote from one of the posts on this topic from our LS forums.

More important than our reaction to a sucessful MPK we need to figure out ways to prevent it.

-We can have one person who stands near the drop down who can sleep spiders as they come.

-In the event of a MPK attempt if we start failing we can cause a flail after getting most of our members out and CFH it while they run back in.

-We should study the area and figure out where the fight shoudl take place to make it the most difficult to MPK us. I know it's a small area, but no factor to preventing this from happening is too small to consider.

-We could have a small party up who are dedicated simply to clearing out spiders. I don't know how practicle this is, but it may be a good idea.

-We could have some of our BLMS purposefully take all the spiders to the zone line and sleep them, sort of how we did with the Snolls at Jormangand.

Please, although i think it is the time to react to their actions, at the same time i think it is better to be proactive and simply prevent the situation from happening. List other ideas, lets make it so we can dominate without sinking to their level if at all possible.
Click to expand...

Honest to god, the most effective response is prevention, i'm well aware of that. That is what i want to focus on. Bringing more numbers, perhaps making agreements with other shells to stop MPK attempts if we happen to be at the same camp. While a alliance for this sort of thing may be nice, given the touchy politics between shells i don't think that at *this* point it would be practicle.

in general to people responding to pere, he is writing intelligently and for the most part very clamly on this topic. It's going to split the community, because the consiquences of this are pretty big... there are going to be a number of people against this; personally i am actually one of them, but i know that my LS is at the point where it can't progress if we don't do something, and the game simply doesn't provide any incentive for these people to start behaving.

If you want to argue with him that's fine, that's going to happen, this is a debate. But, his points are valid, so please refrain from name calling, and at least give them some consideration. Sorry for... idk trying to direct the conversation i guess, i just don't want it to end up as a shouting match.

Colbwa, Maseki responded right away because he and i had been talking while i was making the post, he knew about it before it was up.

Others, kindly ingnore colbwa, if it becomes a yelling match against him there won't be anymore useful posts.
Click to expand...

I for one am all for this, I don't want to MPK at no means, but if they provoke us, I damn sure am going to kick their ass back(if they succede only; if they fail at MPK there's no point in retaliation)

And regarding ESP, like Zoo said it might be best to contact Omicrom or Brianfist for now, they're the top two officers in the shell while Dresdan is away on vacation, I'll make sure they see this thread.
 
One other thing.. it might be also in good interest to post on the respective LSes boards in their General discussion forum.

http://revesp.cjb.net < ours
http://www.outterheaven.com < OH
Dunno Valk's
http://bolsf.cjb.net < BoL
Dunno NH
And you'd naturally know your own.

I don't think NH really has a board, pretty sure Valk does but I just dunno where, the others are definite though.
 
NotoriusHunters has a board :D but it is hidden to all non-members.. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!! Anyways.. I'm not gonna be the one to post a link and then get yelled at >.>
 
Stouter said:
Peregrine said:
I would recommend against this. Nothing would show them our true weight better than for our main shells to make it clear that we are above these offenders...that we won't stoop to their level. That would make a better ultimatum. They're not gods. They're adolescents. When push comes to shove, they think they deserve it more than you do because they were there first and that this is their game. This has only a fraction to do with race, although unfortunately let's be honest here--it's a small factor because this is the real world. This is more about timing though, and perceived threat.

To reply in kind will do nothing but hurt you. If they accidentally agro bark spiders every time, that's wood on the fire for the rule-enforcers to chew on. Escalation would be inevitable, and in the end I can all but guarantee you'll come out with nothing but a bitter taste in your mouths and spewing the same paranoid Na-whined jp-bias spiel that makes almost every other server reek. Quetza doesn't reek yet. Don't start this crap. You're better than they are.
Click to expand...
How many times would you honestly take the high road and turn the other cheek if they continued this? This isn't about some kids doing this for your reaction to it. They are doing it for their own greed, and if they see no consequences for it, then they will continue.
Click to expand...

Like I've been saying, no one ever thinks about prevention and protection. You all just stand around as if you're capable of killing Nidhogg, but three bark spiders are out of your control. It's as if you all are begging to have it taken from you, and you're just itching to play like they play. Nasya is right and will always be right. The only difference between their opinion and mine is that MPK is not just a bad option. It's not an option if you really want to improve the server and each of your shells.

If you all protect yourselves with just a little more strength than it takes to kill Nidhogg, they'll stop trying to MPK you. If they fail to MPK you, I guarantee they'll not try it again unless they try harder, and if they try harder--if they bring 20 spiders instead of 3 that shows up in the logs as a huge red flag.
 
Dealing with an MPK attempt is alot harder then you think at Fafnir/Nidhogg. Sleepga is a definite no in the Fafnir area because you'll not only sleep spiders but darters as well. I'm sure plenty of the shells know what happens when you get darters in that room. So, you have to resort to single target sleeping among the mass confusion of seeing about 30+ people crowding around you AND a huge dragon in your face. I'd have to say that even the most veteran of players would have a hard time trying to target a spider with all the lag that goes on there.

As for bringing in extra people to prevent an MPK, our LS can barely pull 14-18 people to a camp as it is at the times the JP alliance holds it at. Not to mention that we only have an hour before Fafnir/Nidhogg goes into Hyper mode which limits what jobs we would be able to spare (blms specifically) to handle an MPK attempt.
 
I've been at Fafnir while my team was fighting it. They didn't let me touch him until he's at 5%. I just stood around and watched 2 bark spiders kill 18 people. I can solo even matches.
 
Almaut said:
Dealing with an MPK attempt is alot harder then you think at Fafnir/Nidhogg. Sleepga is a definite no in the Fafnir area because you'll not only sleep spiders but darters as well. I'm sure plenty of the shells know what happens when you get darters in that room. So, you have to resort to single target sleeping among the mass confusion of seeing about 30+ people crowding around you AND a huge dragon in your face. I'd have to say that even the most veteran of players would have a hard time trying to target a spider with all the lag that goes on there.

As for bringing in extra people to prevent an MPK, our LS can barely pull 14-18 people to a camp as it is at the times the JP alliance holds it at. Not to mention that we only have an hour before Fafnir/Nidhogg goes into Hyper mode which limits what jobs we would be able to spare (blms specifically) to handle an MPK attempt.
Click to expand...
Beastmasters can charm spiders, and they are all but useless in a fafnir/nidhogg fight, you can also go for the suicidal bard method we attempted at Aspido. Bard casts horde, then runs away. The best way to do this there would have them not drop down and horde the mass as they are being brought in. Make sure they are outside of any party when they do this, otherwise you won't solve a thing. Hell, at faf/nid bard might actually be able to survive this.
 
We could just send Odon, the suicidal Black Mage :D Sleepga II tends to last longer than Horde Lullaby
 
Imagine Kaizen, BoL, Valks, ESP, OH, and NH all working together....A better topic for discussion is: Why do these alliance's cease to exist?


You guys would have no problems with Nidhogg / Aspidochelone if there were 3 other groups clearing adds...I'm sure a priority system could be agreed upon, however I can understand how difficult it is to please a large group of people. Just some food for thought....End game alliance.....
 
Peregrine said:
I've been at Fafnir while my team was fighting it. They didn't let me touch him until he's at 5%. I just stood around and watched 2 bark spiders kill 18 people. I can solo even matches.
Click to expand...

Pere, you've camped with us in the past, I'm sure you remember sometimes it's a challenge to even get 18 people there, or even the right job combo to have a successful fight, we've wiped at fafnir before merely because it popped while we were undermanned, no startegy errors or anything. Having enough people to spare to take adds is no easy task, I'm sure kaizen, OH, and other ls's in full force could wipe out all the spiders that are in a position to be used as mpk material while fighting nidhogg at the same time, it's honestly not that hard, as some jobs can even solo them.

I try my best to make ls events when I can, and look at this only like 9 people showed to camp that day, it's impossible to have a force big enough to counter mpk all the time.

I'm glad kaizen is ready to do this, and I encourage every other ls to take up this policy, a long time ago I'd say mpk should never be done under any circumstances, but a certain dose of reality changes opinion, there is no peaceful solution, we have to step up to their level, you call it going down, but to me, it's going up, it's showing them they're not boss, and that we mean buisness.

Just remember, they're not fighting fire with fire, they're threatning to fight fire with fire. (but not hollow threats) Think of it as the mutal assured distuction the US and USSR had, it was stupid as hell, risky, dangerous, but in the end, it actually worked.

As far as alliance goes, I have no problem with making an alliance to counter mpk's, infact I'd encourage it, however I still think whoever claims the NM gets to fight, no turns or priority, and if one ls wipes, the hnm is up for grabs.

One last note: my oppinions are mine and not neccessarly the same as my shell's =P
 
Dowzer said:
Imagine Kaizen, BoL, Valks, ESP, OH, and NH all working together....A better topic for discussion is: Why do these alliance's cease to exist?


You guys would have no problems with Nidhogg / Aspidochelone if there were 3 other groups clearing adds...I'm sure a priority system could be agreed upon, however I can understand how difficult it is to please a large group of people. Just some food for thought....End game alliance.....
Click to expand...

if you are going to fourm a united NA linkshell organzation
you have to stop fighting each other before you can be allys.

lol un vs warpac
should be quite intresting to see unfolds.
next you going to see the jp and gilseller fourm a union.
then world war vana'deil
 
in a much more angery tone this is the same thing that i said many months ago when svina's HNM shell got MPKed at aspidochelone...... still think it's a good idea, i've always said that passiveness in this game isn't gonna work, a heard alot of people say that if you got MPK'd don't do anything and it will show the MPK's that you're on a higher moral ground or something like that, and they won't do it again, however...that still leaves you w/o the kill and w/o the gear, and it gives the MPKers the idea that you won't retaliate. i've always advocated playing on the other persons level, whatever that may be. i can see why nasya said the camp to camp basis thing, however, if the CC doesn't play that way why should we hold ourselves to a higher standard? just a thought.
 
Daveman said:
As far as alliance goes, I have no problem with making an alliance to counter mpk's, infact I'd encourage it, however I still think whoever claims the NM gets to fight, no turns or priority, and if one ls wipes, the hnm is up for grabs.

One last note: my oppinions are mine and not neccessarly the same as my shell's =P
Click to expand...

End Game Board {Can I have it?}

I think this, as well as many other topics, need to be discussed. How we want to handle conflicts at ???s, how we want to handle wipes... When we plan to make different runs, why we choose to do things at certain times... Please pup, we need a board...
 
Tell Kisada I'll join Kaizen on one condition that he lets me use my MPK-bot while I'm watching TV thx
 
Beastmasters can charm spiders, and they are all but useless in a fafnir/nidhogg fight, you can also go for the suicidal bard method we attempted at Aspido. Bard casts horde, then runs away. The best way to do this there would have them not drop down and horde the mass as they are being brought in. Make sure they are outside of any party when they do this, otherwise you won't solve a thing. Hell, at faf/nid bard might actually be able to survive this.
Click to expand...

I do agree with you, but we just didn't have anybody to spare for this, bst or brd. I can say that not one bard would have been able to sacrifice themself without seriously crippling our ability to win. As far as bst, I was pretty sure that they had a tough time charming spiders. I do recall one time when our BST was trying to help clear some adds, and he was getting some charm resists. It turned out so bad, that people thought we were trying to MPK the LS that had claimed fafnir.
 
The main problem with having a united alliance, is pride. I know leaders from Linkshells might not want to sacrifice the families / teams they have developed. However, there is no sacrificing..In reality we are only making ourselves stronger, first as a group and second being individual gain.

People need to understand and be ready for priority on items...I believe this is why we see so many people switching sky linkshells. There are MANY sky LS, so people have a choice which they join for best priority or friends. Many have already developed their LS to a point where merging would only mean more work they have already accomplished...Things like these all need to be taken into consideration.

With proper organization and dedication..Having one united linkshell for end game could mean the end of LS conflict - if somone is angry with another member and decides they want to leave the LS because of it......Where will they go? They would have to quit end game. I believe one linkshell would help people resolve issues with one another. They would put more serious thought into quitting end-game / resolving the issues they have.......rather than just quitting the linkshell and joining another.

I would like to see there be only One End Game Linkshell... All the leaders of current shells as Moderators/Pearlsack holders.

This is a really big movement that has needed to be accomplished for a long time...I really think all end game LS, like those that I mentioned..could be ready for a massive change and movement like this. I think most people are aware but are afraid to admit, that this is the best thing we could do to take serious hold on end game ??? pop/HNM activities.

If past issues / conflict are a problem with this ever happening.....Then that is your pride, kicking you in the ass and not letting you think clearly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top