...And fuck Limitlessssss, too! Oh, wait, that's just Kaizen again. :D

[Mattaru]

I don't know if it was prudent to kick other people from NB from Limitlesss. I can see why some people in Kaizen or the leadership would group them together, because they basically did so themselves - they came to shell under the stipulation that they would be able to come as a group, issues before arose because of this, and in the end they left pretty much together. No one said anything about it affecting anything outside of Kaizen until Ramp and Lyall made it apparent they were going to torch bridges. I may have done things differently, but I can see why the decision was made.

 

[Dejavu]

Ok for those who are not in any of the shells let me explain the structure of the kaizen/limitless group so that it is more understandable.

There are basically 4 independent but related groups. There is kaizen, limitless Monday dynamis, limitless Friday dynamis and limitless einherjar. Each of these four groups is owned technically a part of kaizen but has its own points system. As a side note and bonus feature for kaizen members they can forgo getting run specific points and get points in the main kaizen shell by participating in a limitless event as well but it does not work the other way around.

Now at the same time as I stated in another post the two groups within kaizen ended up being NB and everyone else for the most part. With this being said when this flame started and due to some of the circumstances in the past Kaizen leadership decided to cut ties completely with the entire NB group as they are close enough that it would not be possible for any direct relationship to continue as this and the other flame have somewhat shown.

Now as for the shells themselves, All NBs left kaizen already and no NBs have been active in Monday dynamis for 6 months at least. As far as einherjar was concerned I believe that 3 NB (rampage, tsiffe, and alberic) were active in that shell but as stated before I am not in that shell… Now as for Friday dynamis all of the NBs are active in that shell and very few actual kaizen members are. With all of that in mind Kaizen seems to want to completely disassociate from them on a group to group basis. With that in mind they left Monday and kaizen and 3 people were kicked from kaizen. Friday on the other hand was given to them and they can do whatever they want with it for the most part. Meaning if they wanted to kick all of the kaizen members who run on Friday with them… they can go for it. If they want to continue to let them come… they can do that too. But on a group to group basis kaizen is completely disassociating with them.

When trying to make a complete break I do not see how this split was anything but as fair as possible and seeing the general hatred between some of the NB and some of Kaizen I also fail to see how this is not in everyone’s best interest. Yes kaizens actions are drastic but they are also probably the most likely to be successful to limit drama beyond this flame as there will be few opportunities for either group to screw the other one.

If you wished to maintain some kind of working relationship you shouldn’t burn bridges. Also to anyone who thinks I am at all involved in the kickings of all these people… The only one of those 4 groups I am in is the Monday dynamis and although I am a sac in that group I get no input on the decisions that come from the kaizen leadership. Unforeseen consequences suck but they are still your own fault.

And to the innocent being affected the only person who is really getting affected by this who is not involved is tsiffe and to him and him only I do feel sorry. Rampage and alberic both posted in the other thread extolling the “death of a titan” and showed their opinions were inline with those of Lyall.

 

[Lyall]

Matt's making some decent points, actually, and I wasn't clear enough in my posts.

I had no problem with Kaizen taking a different direction. In fact, I'd always thought to myself that if Kaizen ever seriously got back into the HNM wagon, I'd make me peace with them, thank them for the fun and experiences, and exit the shell. Here's the timeframe: Thursday night there's a fight about HNMs being mandatory out of nowhere, Friday is Dynamis so I'm not on Kaizen on account of my duties there, Saturday is a Kaizen event which I attend, there's a 90 minute fight THERE about HNMs only being mostly mandatory, and then Saturday night there's the post on the forums from the OP in the other flame.

The one that says "This is now how it is, adjust or leave." We went from being a sometimes-sky, sometimes-sea, sometimes-KS99 shell to ZOMG DO HNMS OR GTFO. Gains wasn't open to discussion, Gains wasn't listening to anything that I or others who didn't like policy had to say, and Gains made a deadline to "sort our agendas" or leave.

I had a problem with finding out, in the course of four days, that a shell I'd been a part of for a year was tossing me out because they wanted another shot at their glory days before the merger makes HNMs bot-central.

As for all the Limitless stuff? All the stuff with TG? All the stuff about other Kaizen members apparently quitting over members from a specific shell? Dragged into the open by Dejavu. I didn't flame those people, they got brought up by an unassociated party relaying hearsay. Of course I defended my actions. My actions PERSONALLY, not "My but I mean we the Nightblades."

So what happened here is, I flamed Gains, Deja made a bunch of irrelevant posts, I refuted them, and THEN Kaizen banned unassociated people. For an argument /I/ had with a THIRD party.

 

[Lyall]

With this being said when this flame started and due to some of the circumstances in the past Kaizen leadership decided to cut ties completely with the entire NB group as they are close enough that it would not be possible for any direct relationship to continue as this and the other flame have somewhat shown.

Now as for Friday dynamis all of the NBs are active in that shell and very few actual kaizen members are. With all of that in mind Kaizen seems to want to completely disassociate from them on a group to group basis. With that in mind they left Monday and kaizen and 3 people were kicked from kaizen. Friday on the other hand was given to them and they can do whatever they want with it for the most part. Meaning if they wanted to kick all of the kaizen members who run on Friday with them… they can go for it. If they want to continue to let them come… they can do that too. But on a group to group basis kaizen is completely disassociating with them.

When trying to make a complete break I do not see how this split was anything but as fair as possible and seeing the general hatred between some of the NB and some of Kaizen I also fail to see how this is not in everyone’s best interest.

If you wished to maintain some kind of working relationship you shouldn’t burn bridges. Also to anyone who thinks I am at all involved in the kickings of all these people… The only one of those 4 groups I am in is the Monday dynamis and although I am a sac in that group I get no input on the decisions that come from the kaizen leadership. Unforeseen consequences suck but they are still your own fault.

And to the innocent being affected the only person who is really getting affected by this who is not involved is tsiffe and to him and him only I do feel sorry. Rampage and alberic both posted in the other thread extolling the “death of a titan” and showed their opinions were inline with those of Lyall.

Bolded for emphasis. I'd love to see where it's shown that I am unable to work with anyone from Kaizen. In fact, every member in Limitless-Ein has already left Kaizen save for Ramp weeks ago, and there was never a problem with any of them. You're ignoring the part where MY side of equation continued to operate without anything going wrong.

I've said repeatedly I wouldn't stop anyone from coming to Friday Dynamis runs, even before this absurd retaliation. I've never been anything but professional outside of my initial flame, and right up until you started trolling with threats at other people, I took the time to respond to every claim like I'm doing now.

Alberic posted in the other topic neutrally, even saying that they liked working with Kaizen. Ramp commented on disliking ONE member aside from Gains, the recipient of the original flame.

You don't have a solid argument, you have "Well, you were all problematic" when the only problems came from YOU instigating with a bunch of third party (incorrect) information, and MY responses to it. My shell has always been able to work with people they don't like. It seems only one side of this dispute has that problem.

 

[Dejavu]

What did I say that constitutes a threat? I Am in no position to make one... all I did was state my current understanding of the situation.

 

[Lyall]

What did I say that constitutes a threat? I Am in no position to make one... all I did was state my current understanding of the situation.

In your defense, you didn't ACTUALLY make a threat, you just leaned in with "Well, you probably just screwed Ramp out of E.body" when Limitless wasn't up for discussion. You insisted on bringing up outside information, none of it relevant to LYALL flaming GAINS. In fact, none of anything that has happened has been relevant to LYALL flaming GAINS.

Doesn't change the fact the people responsible for all of this, i.e. Gains and now Ilana, are eerily silent on any wrong doings. In fact, almost every point I've made has been largely ignored in favor of side-arguments and off-topic bullshit. There IS no defense for this other than "We did it to get back at you."

 

[toqabowl]

Limitless Friday SHOULD BE, AND ONLY BE ABOUT DYNAMIS... fuck all the bullshit kaizen drama i just wanna kill shit and get drops.

 

[Hexx]

A shitty move is a shitty move. Nailing all of NB just because Lyall and Ramp flamed Gains the the general leadership of Kaizen is beyond stupid. And yes, that was a veiled threat Deja, how funny that it ACTUALLY happened dont you think? Bunch of childish pricks really.

 

[Lyall]

A shitty move is a shitty move. Nailing all of NB just because Lyall and Ramp flamed Gains the the general leadership of Kaizen is beyond stupid. And yes, that was a veiled threat Deja, how funny that it ACTUALLY happened dont you think? Bunch of childish pricks really.

He was doing the troll thing and insinuating the worst possibility; I would have done the same were roles reversed, maybe, but I don't think Deja egged on TG to egg on Ilana to make all this happen. I think all of Kaizen egged on for this to happen, given that Ilana mentioned 90% of the shell wanted "us" gone.

And honestly, as much as I do enjoy a good bonfire, this whole thing has gotten pretty stale. The points have been made, the cases have been compiled, Ilana never said anything despite having viewed the thread a bunch of times. Might be time to roll credits and drop curtain on this one.

 

[Miros]

He was doing the troll thing and insinuating the worst possibility; I would have done the same were roles reversed, maybe, but I don't think Deja egged on TG to egg on Ilana to make all this happen. I think all of Kaizen egged on for this to happen, given that Ilana mentioned 90% of the shell wanted "us" gone.

And honestly, as much as I do enjoy a good bonfire, this whole thing has gotten pretty stale. The points have been made, the cases have been compiled, Ilana never said anything despite having viewed the thread a bunch of times. Might be time to roll credits and drop curtain on this one.

Makes sense. We'll never know the truth unless they respond and if not, you're just jerking yourself off. And who likes to do that alone? I don't. I like having a few people helping.