Another pet question

[K. Ishitar]

Looks like an improvement in 3 Tests or 300 Tests it will be the same result almost 100% of the time. I do not personally have Summoner at 75 but whether its before or in the middle of hitting Rage, it will not matter. Putting the Ability Gear before it then switching into it works.

from appearances yes but the other side has not yet presented their case, which I understand is being prepared soon, you shouldn't judge prematurely...

 

[Davion]

I'm still in the mindset that gear swapping does NOT have an effect but rather dmg from the avatars is calculated by the gear you have on when you confirm a BP rage move just like a WS. Additionally, using the right avatar against the right mobs is also a factor. But I still believe it's all luck when the attack lands because you never know what's gonna happen. However, I have to agree with Evanos that the mob being solid lvl is for better testing. So for that reason, after getting inconsistent results from Clippers (I made videos but I'm impatient on youtube and mediafire uploading) I go to Gustaberg and attack bees and pissed off a few noobs....

I'm not bashing Taisa, not saying he's a bad SMN but his screen shots don't show his chat log responding to the windower input command with "Equipment changed.". Even when you input a macro via windower it will always show those words in response in the FFXI chat log which would lead me to believe he might have (not saying he did) just equipped the gear then used the BP. But I'm assuming he has that filtered. Also, the Vanadiel time was inconsistent between testing screenshots so....yea....

Regardless of that technicality, I did my own testing with time stamps.

I have screen shots and many other summoners that will agree with me. It does work.

Sorry to say that just because they agree with you doesn't mean you're right.

I'm not here to make claims that I'm the best SMN in the history of this game, far from that. I'm here to make a point and to prove a case about, as you so eloquently put it: my job.


Here are my merit statistics (not much sorry ><:

Gear that I didnt swap out in my testing: Evoker's ring, Water staff, Staff strap, insominia earring, antivenom earring, blue cape +1, hierarch belt, Hedgehog bomb, SMN relic hands, and YYR

Like Evanos, I did a test completely naked.

Test 1: My regular gear.

SMN relic hands, legs, feet.

Test #2:

I changed gear without macro to having 2 accuracy pieces (relic hands and AF legs) and evasion (af feet)

Test #3

I changed gear from Test #2 to 2 accuracy pieces and 1 attack piece in my macro:

/pet "Spinning Dive" <t>
/wait 2
/equip legs "Evoker's spats"

The result:

Test #4

I attacked again with the same gear I changed to in Test #3:

Test #5 : Naked, no gear

From this testing on a mob that's lvl 1, the gear swapping during the readying phase of an avatar attack will NOT circumvent the damage nor accuracy. The gear that is on the SMN at the time the ability is confirmed is considered in the calculation. However if you macro in gear before you confirm the attack, just like a WS you can circumvent the damage output and accuracy. I conclude that results vary from mob to mob and the avatar you use on the target mob and your equipped gear.

On a side note:

Spoiler:

I got a skill up!

 

[Taisa]

It may come down to "luck" or maybe something else. The equipment changed is filtered via the silence plugin on windower.net. Times are inconsistent because I was camping KB at the time. Hope that clears some confusions. I may have to go back to testing again, seeing that other summoners are getting hugely different results that I do, as comparing screen shot to screen shot. On high level mobs I see a difference, but it may take more testing to find out for sure.

 

[evanos]

Hint: You can test easily by using Blood: Pact Ward. Both of the Blood Pacts act in the same way, they have same base timer and they both take time to prepare, and Ward has easily testable values such as the duration of Hastega etc.

One really really easy way every summoner could test is by popping out Garuda totally naked, then hitting their Hastega timer 10 times just to be safe and make sure that its the same number (which it very well should be), then hit Hastega and swap in summoning magic + gear after you hit the button (most efficient using Windower macros). If you see any boost the time that hastega lasts when you swap gear in after you start the blood pact then its possible, but for me it made no difference.

 

[K. Ishitar]

It may come down to "luck" or maybe something else. The equipment changed is filtered via the silence plugin on windower.net. Times are inconsistent because I was camping KB at the time. Hope that clears some confusions. I may have to go back to testing again, seeing that other summoners are getting hugely different results that I do, as comparing screen shot to screen shot. On high level mobs I see a difference, but it may take more testing to find out for sure.

i don't think it's luck if what he did is true, it seems consistent. Do you mean a chance to crit? yes they can do that but not often even so it should refect the same results regardless.

On higher level mobs there are more stats to protect them, so using level 1-0 mobs instead of higher level mobs which have usually a larger range of levels so results will vary. It's the mobs I think that make your testing go off and make it harder to discern especially on a higher level mob. If you have a low level mob with very little to no stats, evasion, defense,etc. it's easier to gauge.

Same way rdms can check the full potency of their debuffs and parse it to see how much of an effect it has by using mobs that are very weak.

 

[hellstorm]

i don't think it's luck if what he did is true, it seems consistent. Do you mean a chance to crit? yes they can do that but not often even so it should refect the same results regardless.

On higher level mobs there are more stats to protect them, so using level 1-0 mobs instead of higher level mobs which have usually a larger range of levels so results will vary. It's the mobs I think that make your testing go off and make it harder to discern especially on a higher level mob. If you have a low level mob with very little to no stats, evasion, defense,etc. it's easier to gauge.

Same way rdms can check the full potency of their debuffs and parse it to see how much of an effect it has by using mobs that are very weak.

He was fighting a lvl 42 mob I believe that mob eva is not a issue. also it be different if the bp gear won a test, but it didn't with each test the macro came out ahead, and the way you know the macro worked is by the bloodpact timer. Which taisa needs to take off the hide after the screenshot type in his script file so it will show.

 

[K. Ishitar]

He was fighting a lvl 42 mob I believe that mob eva is not a issue.

Also, it would be different if the bp gear won a test, but it wasn't tried with each test the macro came out ahead, and the way you know the macro worked is by the bloodpact timer.

This is what taisa needs to do: take off the hide equipment change plugin after the screenshot type in his script file so it will show.

Assuming that's you're saying(not trying to offend you)

evasion yes is not an issue neither is acc especially with one hits, that's really just a small point out as a small part of the many, the main issue is really the defense, stats, and level fluctuation.

When you find something that has almost none of these traits, they become very easy to gauge effects of abilities upon(read: full extent. The lower they are, the easier it is.

You're chancing bp gear will win over the attack gear? No chance, the damage from davion's shots is too huge to think otherwise, criticals don't count assuming those in davion's shots were only regular ones. If you count criticals then you have to count the criticals with the attack gear. Bp gear- will never outdo the damage of the attack gear....

Unless you're saying maximizing all the bp gear you can for rage in order to have that half min interval before the next then probrably so, since attacking in a minute wouldn't fare against 2 bps in 1 minute. But I doubt this is what you were getting at.

 

[hellstorm]

Assuming that's you're saying(not trying to offend you)

evasion yes is not an issue neither is acc especially with one hits, that's really just a small point out as a small part of the many, the main issue is really the defense, stats, and level fluctuation.

When you find something that has almost none of these traits, they become very easy to gauge effects of abilities upon(read: full extent. The lower they are, the easier it is.

You're chancing bp gear will win over the attack gear? No chance, the damage from davion's shots is too huge to think otherwise, criticals don't count assuming those in davion's shots were only regular ones. If you count criticals then you have to count the criticals with the attack gear. Bp gear- will never outdo the damage of the attack gear....

Unless you're saying maximizing all the bp gear you can for rage in order to have that half min interval before the next then probrably so, since attacking in a minute wouldn't fare against 2 bps in 1 minute. But I doubt this is what you were getting at.

No what I'm saying is if you look at taisa shots he start out in blood pact gear in fist picture he stay in BP gear when hitting button and when levi hits the mob. In picture 2 he start out in bp gear then after pushing the button for spinning dive, switches to smn magic/ sac toque/ atk gear. You would have been able to tell that the blood pact gear worked in the second ss if he would have not had the "hide" feature on in his script. Also noting that the second ss won not once, not twice, but every time. Taisa is getting at least a 2 sec delay then divion is since he not using pants and then much greater attack due to his atk set from using smn body over yyr.

 

[K. Ishitar]

why do these damage shots seem similar?

the first was done with just bp gear, the second was with bp gear then switching to attack gear....

Notice that damage fluctuation with the 1089 spinning dive in bp gear and the 1.2k in bp gear...

then there's the 1.2k shot...in the same gear

Notice any slight damage resisting due to stats? Can you redo the tests on level 0-1 mobs and get the same results?

Your shots are reflecting the same damage more or less the slight increases is due to mob level and slight defense

hence this shot

the finished product with macros

the same finished product, again it's not consistent

he's filtering out of course the gear changing back to his bp setup again getting ready for the next bp.

 

[Davion]

No what I'm saying is if you look at taisa shots he start out in blood pact gear in fist picture he stay in BP gear when hitting button and when levi hits the mob. In picture 2 he start out in bp gear then after pushing the button for spinning dive, switches to smn magic/ sac toque/ atk gear. You would have been able to tell that the blood pact gear worked in the second ss if he would have not had the "hide" feature on in his script. Also noting that the second ss won not once, not twice, but every time. Taisa is getting at least a 2 sec delay then divion is since he not using pants and then much greater attack due to his atk set from using smn body over yyr.

But you need to also understand that the Summoner relic body increases the chance of a critical hit rate by 3% on the avatar when it's equipped. This factor makes for inconsistency because you dont know when a critical hit will take place.

Khidir is correct. As your lvl fluctuates so does your evasion and overall defense. To maintain consistency in my testing (I also dont have the smn relic body) I used the method of removing and adding attack and accuracy in my testing to find anything consistent.

Also you're still not understanding the Blood Pact delay- notation. It decreases the time I have to wait to use another blood pact, not how long it takes for the avatar to execute the attack.

Blood Pact Delay

If you look at the timers from my Recast plugin on my screenshots you'll see the timer differences.

All I've said in my testing I found it all to be inconsistent with Taisa's claims and the damage will all be inconsistent and luck based.

1. Taisa tested on mobs with a 2 level gap: Lesser Gaylas

2. A critical hit is always random; even when you add gear to it, you will not know when it will happen but only that it may take place more often than it did before.

3. Read points 1-2.

I personally believe the only ones that can answer this question is SE themselves.

 

[K. Ishitar]

personally I would remove the smn body because it would skew results assuming the critical procs. It's there in macro to increase chances of doing more damage, not consistent damage added like sacrifice torque and smn feet.

When the critical does occur usually it's a noticeable increase of damage, but of course criticals themselves can vary in amounts which gives even more reason for smn doublet not to be used in testing.

also, evasion has nothing to do with a one hit shot on something that low(read: monster levels), it's just the defense, stats and level(plays a huge part in everything if not the most).

and also davie thats a 3 level range, 2 in between 40 and 42=P

 

[hellstorm]

But you need to also understand that the Summoner relic body increases the chance of a critical hit rate by 3% on the avatar when it's equipped. This factor makes for inconsistency because you dont know when a critical hit will take place.

Khidir is correct. As your lvl fluctuates so does your evasion and overall defense. To maintain consistency in my testing (I also dont have the smn relic body) I used the method of removing and adding attack and accuracy in my testing to find anything consistent.

Also you're still not understanding the Blood Pact delay- notation. It decreases the time I have to wait to use another blood pact, not how long it takes for the avatar to execute the attack.

Blood Pact Delay

If you look at the timers from my Recast plugin on my screenshots you'll see the timer differences.

All I've said in my testing I found it all to be inconsistent with Taisa's claims and the damage will all be inconsistent and luck based.

1. Taisa tested on mobs with a 2 level gap: Lesser Gaylas

2. A critical hit is always random; even when you add gear to it, you will not know when it will happen but only that it may take place more often than it did before.

3. Read points 1-2.

I personally believe the only ones that can answer this question is SE themselves.

Right but in order for the smn af2 body to be active by your standards it have to put on before he pushes the bp button, but he does not put it on till after he pushes the button, but before the pet does the actual move. If you claiming that the af2 body had a effect then that would mean that it don't have to be on before one pushes the spinning dive button and the equipment can be change before the actual bp takes place. As for BP timer I know what it does I'm saying that if he would of had it so recast would have been shown on the ss you would have seen that he got full effect of the bp timer while still being able to change to his atk gear. after.

 

[Myrrh]

Hellstorm, you're saying your argument is invalid by saying his is right. <_<

 

[K. Ishitar]

Right but in order for the smn af2 body to be active by your standards it have to put on before he pushes the bp button, but he does not put it on till after he pushes the button, but before the pet does the actual move.

If you claiming that the af2 body had a effect then that would mean that it don't have to be on before one pushes the spinning dive button and the equipment can be change before the actual bp takes place.

As for BP timer I know what it does I'm saying that if he would of had it so recast would have been shown on the ss you would have seen that he got full effect of the bp timer while still being able to change to his atk gear. after.

1. That's correct and that is why it had no effect because he was using bp- body or yyr. The bp was based upon the initial setup which is why the damage is very similar regardless of gear equipped...

2. Ties in with number 1. it didn't have an effect because it wasn't worth initially

3. This was done because again, he used his bp- gear to reduce the timer then switch gear for more damage(which is not possible, only the initial gear counts).

This also indirectly ties back to my point about the smn doublet, it shouldn't be used for testing since the crit rate can skew things as bloodpacts dont say where there's a crit like in a ws that crits for a pc normally. Also the crits can vary some minor some huge.

 

[Davion]

Right but in order for the smn af2 body to be active by your standards it have to put on before he pushes the bp button, but he does not put it on till after he pushes the button, but before the pet does the actual move. If you claiming that the af2 body had a effect then that would mean that it don't have to be on before one pushes the spinning dive button and the equipment can be change before the actual bp takes place. As for BP timer I know what it does I'm saying that if he would of had it so recast would have been shown on the ss you would have seen that he got full effect of the bp timer while still being able to change to his atk gear. after.

You just defeated your own claims and it's clear you didn't read and comprehend what I said.

 

[evanos]

Well, after a series of deeper tests it turns out I was wrong on not being able to swap gear. I even came across some numbers that I nor other people in this thread didn't have solidly before this post, and even though I made a total ass of myself by being wrong, I'll share what I found.

First I did what I described that I did before, however this time I used windower macros to do the swap from the gear that I originally hit blood Pact Macro in and what it ended with. Anywho here it is:

Naked base of hastega time (269 skill + nadda) = 1:27 duration

2nd base time of Hastega: 269 + 40 summoning magic = 2:57 duration

After this I did a test where I hit the blood Pact: Ward Macro starting totally naked when I hit the macro, and swapping into full Summoning Magic Gear (269 + 40). To my suprise the time was @ 2:57 just like when I cast with full gear on, meaning that the swap did make a difference.

After I found out this, I tested out to see what I had done wrong the day before. After a number of tests I found out that you have between 0 and 2 seconds to make your gear changes, and after that its too late. Avatars have a 6 second ability prep time, so 1/3 of total preparation time you have to change gear. On my previous test rather than macroing I did it by hand, and apparently after the 2s mark.

After this, I began to wonder if I was getting the effect of both the - Blood Pact Timer that I started out in, or if I was getting -only- the effect of the gear swap that I swapped into mid-cast. To test this I made a macro where I started in -14 blood pact timer gear, and then 1 second after initiation of hastega swapped into 0 Blood Pact - gear. Theoretically if I only got the effect of the gear that I swapped into my Blood Pact: Ward timer wolud be @ 60s when the action was complete. But here was the results of my test:

The 9s shorter of hastega time can be explained by me taking out the 10 summoning magic of AF2 hands.

I hope these tests were of some hope to you and I apologize to those who I said was wrong before testing with proper macros. I have no reason to believe that Blood Pact: Ward and Blood Pact: Rage are any different, so no need to spend hours out on bunnies testing it, unless you're really -really- bored.

Edit: Also used time stamp plugin on Windower as you may see for these tests.

 

[hellstorm]

You just defeated your own claims and it's clear you didn't read and comprehend what I said.

No, I'm saying you defeated yours by saying the smn af2 body was the reason for the difference, but as seen above that now 2 smn that say it so. Test it out sure you will see difference to.

 

[Davion]

Kudos Evanos. Ward makes more sense because you can alter the preset calculation.

I still feel that Rage is up in the air somewhere.

 

[K. Ishitar]

i can't think of a reason why SE wouldn't be consistent with it, but I'll be able to test with my gear in the future, thank you for that data Evanos and not squabble.

 

[Davion]

Right but in order for the smn af2 body to be active by your standards it have to put on before he pushes the bp button, but he does not put it on till after he pushes the button, but before the pet does the actual move. If you claiming that the af2 body had a effect then that would mean that it don't have to be on before one pushes the spinning dive button and the equipment can be change before the actual bp takes place. As for BP timer I know what it does I'm saying that if he would of had it so recast would have been shown on the ss you would have seen that he got full effect of the bp timer while still being able to change to his atk gear. after.

I said you defeated yourself...

You said:

No, I'm saying you defeated yours by saying the smn af2 body was the reason for the difference.

Hellstorm, you're saying your argument is invalid by saying his is right. <_<

Read what I said again:

But you need to also understand that the Summoner relic body increases the chance of a critical hit rate by 3% on the avatar when it's equipped. This factor makes for inconsistency because you dont know when a critical hit will take place.

Khidir is correct. As your lvl fluctuates so does your evasion and overall defense. To maintain consistency in my testing (I also dont have the smn relic body) I used the method of removing and adding attack and accuracy in my testing to find anything consistent.

Also you're still not understanding the Blood Pact delay- notation. It decreases the time I have to wait to use another blood pact, not how long it takes for the avatar to execute the attack.

Blood Pact Delay

If you look at the timers from my Recast plugin on my screenshots you'll see the timer differences.

All I've said in my testing I found it all to be inconsistent with Taisa's claims and the damage will all be inconsistent and luck based.

1. Taisa tested on mobs with a 2 level gap: Lesser Gaylas

2. A critical hit is always random; even when you add gear to it, you will not know when it will happen but only that it may take place more often than it did before.

3. Read points 1-2.

I personally believe the only ones that can answer this question is SE themselves.

You didn't defeat anything but yourself because all you did was just restate what I said.

It may come down to "luck" or maybe something else. The equipment changed is filtered via the silence plugin on windower.net. Times are inconsistent because I was camping KB at the time. Hope that clears some confusions. I may have to go back to testing again, seeing that other summoners are getting hugely different results that I do, as comparing screen shot to screen shot. On high level mobs I see a difference, but it may take more testing to find out for sure.

The critical hit can occur at any time which is why its a factor for inconsistency in an adequet test. I'm using gear that is stream line and will not make the results more random and skewed as Khidir said.