Article on Iraq

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I think this would be good for discussion.

Wall Street Journal
June 15, 2007
Pg. 17
What I Saw In Iraq
By Joseph Lieberman
I recently returned from Iraq and four other countries in the Middle East, my first trip to the region since December. In the intervening five months, almost everything about the American war effort in Baghdad has changed, with a new coalition military commander, Gen. David Petraeus; a new U.S. ambassador, Ryan Crocker; the introduction, at last, of new troops; and most important of all, a bold, new counterinsurgency strategy.

The question of course is -- is it working? Here in Washington, advocates of retreat insist with absolute certainty that it is not, seizing upon every suicide bombing and American casualty as proof positive that the U.S. has failed in Iraq, and that it is time to get out.

In Baghdad, however, discussions with the talented Americans responsible for leading this fight are more balanced, more hopeful and, above all, more strategic in their focus -- fixated not just on the headline or loss of the day, but on the larger stakes in this struggle, beginning with who our enemies are in Iraq. The officials I met in Baghdad said that 90% of suicide bombings in Iraq today are the work of non-Iraqi, al Qaeda terrorists. In fact, al Qaeda's leaders have repeatedly said that Iraq is the central front of their global war against us. That is why it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that the war in Iraq can be separated from the war against al Qaeda -- and why a U.S. pullout, under fire, would represent an epic victory for al Qaeda, as significant as their attacks on 9/11.
Some of my colleagues in Washington claim we can fight al Qaeda in Iraq while disengaging from the sectarian violence there. Not so, say our commanders in Baghdad, who point out that the crux of al Qaeda's strategy is to spark Iraqi civil war.

Al Qaeda is launching spectacular terrorist bombings in Iraq, such as the despicable attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra this week, to try to provoke sectarian violence. Its obvious aim is to use Sunni-Shia bloodshed to collapse the Iraqi government and create a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, radicalizing the region and providing a base from which to launch terrorist attacks against the West.

Facts on the ground also compel us to recognize that Iran is doing everything in its power to drive us out of Iraq, including providing substantive support, training and sophisticated explosive devices to insurgents who are murdering American soldiers. Iran has initiated a deadly military confrontation with us, from bases in Iran, which we ignore at our peril, and at the peril of our allies throughout the Middle East.

The precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces would not only throw open large parts of Iraq to domination by the radical regime in Tehran, it would also send an unmistakable message to the entire Middle East -- from Lebanon to Gaza to the Persian Gulf where Iranian agents are threatening our allies -- that Iran is ascendant there, and America is in retreat. One Arab leader told me during my trip that he is extremely concerned about Tehran's nuclear ambitions, but that he doubted America's staying power in the region and our political will to protect his country from Iranian retaliation over the long term. Abandoning Iraq now would substantiate precisely these gathering fears across the Middle East that the U.S. is becoming an unreliable ally.

That is why -- as terrible as the continuing human cost of fighting this war in Iraq is -- the human cost of losing it would be even greater.
Gen. Petraeus and other U.S. officials in Iraq emphasize that it is still too soon to draw hard judgments about the success of our new security strategy -- but during my visit I saw hopeful signs of progress. Consider Anbar province, Iraq's heart of darkness for most of the past four years. When I last visited Anbar in December, the U.S. military would not allow me to visit the provincial capital, Ramadi, because it was too dangerous. Anbar was one of al Qaeda's major strongholds in Iraq and the region where the majority of American casualties were occurring. A few months earlier, the Marine Corps chief of intelligence in Iraq had written off the entire province as "lost," while the Iraq Study Group described the situation there as "deteriorating."

When I returned to Anbar on this trip, however, the security environment had undergone a dramatic reversal. Attacks on U.S. troops there have dropped from an average of 30 to 35 a day a few months ago to less than one a day now, according to Col. John Charlton, commander of the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division, headquartered in Ramadi. Whereas six months ago only half of Ramadi's 23 tribes were cooperating with the coalition, all have now been persuaded to join an anti-al Qaeda alliance. One of Ramadi's leading sheikhs told me: "A rifle pointed at an American soldier is a rifle pointed at an Iraqi."

The recent U.S. experience in Anbar also rebuts the bromide that the new security plan is doomed to fail because there is no "military" solution for Iraq. In fact, no one believes there is a purely "military" solution for Iraq. But the presence of U.S. forces is critical not just to ensuring basic security, but to a much broader spectrum of diplomatic, political and economic missions -- which are being carried out today in Iraq under Gen. Petraeus's counterinsurgency strategy.

In Anbar, for example, the U.S. military has been essential to the formation and survival of the tribal alliance against al Qaeda, simultaneously holding together an otherwise fractious group of Sunni Arab leaders through deft diplomacy, while establishing a political bridge between them and the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad. "This is a continuous effort," Col. Charlton said. "We meet with the sheikhs every single day and at every single level."

In Baghdad, U.S. forces have cut in half the number of Iraqi deaths from sectarian violence since the surge began in February. They have also been making critical improvements in governance, basic services and commercial activity at the grassroots level.

On Haifa Street, for instance, where there was bloody fighting not so long ago, the 2nd "Black Jack" Brigade of our First Cavalry Division, under the command of a typically impressive American colonel, Bryan Roberts, has not only retaken the neighborhood from insurgents, but is working with the local population to revamp the electrical grid and sewer system, renovate schools and clinics, and create an "economic safe zone" where businesses can reopen. Indeed, of the brigade's five "lines of operations," only one is strictly military. That Iraq reality makes pure fiction of the argument heard in Washington that the surge will fail because it is only "military."

Some argue that the new strategy is failing because, despite gains in Baghdad and Anbar, violence has increased elsewhere in the country, such as Diyala province. This gets things backwards: Our troops have succeeded in improving security conditions in precisely those parts of Iraq where the "surge" has focused. Al Qaeda has shifted its operations to places like Diyala in large measure because we have made progress in pushing them out of Anbar and Baghdad. The question now is, do we consolidate and build on the successes that the new strategy has achieved, keeping al Qaeda on the run, or do we abandon them?

To be sure, there are still daunting challenges ahead. Iraqi political leaders, in particular, need to step forward and urgently work through difficult political questions, whose resolution is necessary for national reconciliation and, as I told them, continuing American support.
These necessary legislative compromises would be difficult to accomplish in any political system, including peaceful, long-established democracies -- as the recent performance of our own Congress reminds us. Nonetheless, Iraqi leaders are struggling against enormous odds to make progress, and told me they expect to pass at least some of the key benchmark bills this summer. It is critical that they do so.

Here, too, however, a little perspective is useful. While benchmarks are critically important, American soldiers are not fighting in Iraq today only so that Iraqis can pass a law to share oil revenues. They are fighting because a failed state in the heart of the Middle East, overrun by al Qaeda and Iran, would be a catastrophe for American national security and our safety here at home. They are fighting al Qaeda and agents of Iran in order to create the stability in Iraq that will allow its government to take over, to achieve the national reconciliation that will enable them to pass the oil law and other benchmark legislation.

I returned from Iraq grateful for the progress I saw and painfully aware of the difficult problems that remain ahead. But I also returned with a renewed understanding of how important it is that we not abandon Iraq to al Qaeda and Iran, so long as victory there is still possible.

And I conclude from my visit that victory is still possible in Iraq -- thanks to the Iraqi majority that desperately wants a better life, and because of the courage, compassion and competence of the extraordinary soldiers and statesmen who are carrying the fight there, starting with Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. The question now is, will we politicians in Washington rise to match their leadership, sacrifices and understanding of what is on the line for us in Iraq -- or will we betray them, and along with them, America's future security?

Mr. Lieberman is an Independent Democratic senator from Connecticut.
 
iraq well drown in civil war and become a haven for the lost ones "al Qaeda"

other arab county wont do anything to stop this

they fear that the civil war well move to thier country if they help one of the fighting party *almost all arabs are sunnis"
 
I'm not sure what "bold, new counterinsurgency strategy" he's talking about. It sounds like the same terrorist Whack-a-Mole game they've been in for years, but with extra hammers.
 
I love how people who know nothing "REAL" about what is going with this war post shit against it.

Superrific!! Keep it up!!
 
I love how people who know nothing "REAL" about what is going with this war post shit against it.

Superrific!! Keep it up!!

Preach on it or shut the fuck up. People like you are an ever increasing minority in the service and will continue to be until this mess is over. I love how 1/100 soldiers you talk to thinks iraq is going smashingly while the other 99 are either dead, wounded, or being forced in to their 5th or better tour out there.

Wanna hear the latest joke out of the White House?

How many soldiers does it take to take over a country the size of California?

More than you'dve initially thought.

.... unless you'd read the multiple intellegence reports issued before we invaded that explained why it might be a bad idea and how to avoid said pitfalls.

Oh yea, btw. My national guard (along with about another 30 states) want their shit back. We figure if it's going to be misappropriated or left to rot it might as well be doing it back here where it can actually manage to accomplish something if required.

It's really not such a bad thing to admit, like your superiors have, that you were thrown in to a situation where you can't win by people who ignored all the possible outcomes of the scenario and had no contingency plan in the event the country didn't rise up and embrace your efforts. The shot callers fucked up, ignored reports, didn't do any 'big picture' thinking and you guys pay the price for it. But you're still brown-nosing like anyone gives a shit about uplifting and positive troop stories. News flash, you're at least 2 years too late to put a positive face on this shit.

I imagine if you were paying the check instead of serving the wine you'd have a different take too.

You want to talk about getting real start in the mirror. Just because it's your job doesn't mean you have the slightest clue what the fuck is going on. Nor do you speak for anyone but yourself.
 
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Being in the military does not obligate you to have a positive outlook, RoM, but at the same time, your doom and gloom opinion does not automatically make you right.

I agree, those in charge did not foresee the gigantic civil war that has since broken out, but let me ask you this... could you? If you are in the military, then you should know how we do business. No one made the call to just press ahead blindly and see if it worked, rather, they made the best decision they could based on the information they had at the time.

Do you honestly think *any* of our leaders want to see more bloodshed than is absolutely necessary?

People often forget that we are a military designed to re-fight WWII acting in a role better suited for UN peacekeeprs. We're fighting an insurgent nightmare a thousand times worse than what the Russians ever had in Afghanistan, and we've been far more successful. The fact that we're making any headway at *all* against the type of shadowy enemy we face is nothing less than a miracle and a testament to the tears, sweat, and yes, blood that we've poured into Iraq.

Is it worth it? Hell yes it is. I hate seeing the body count rise as much as anyone, but if we can create a stable state in Iraq, we can prove once and for all to the world that terrorist forces cannot stand up to a regular military, even in an environment where they should be at their best. To recruit, our enemies must inspire confidence in themselves, and how can they do that if they can't point to any lasting success?

Finally, I'd just like to point one thing out. Every American life lost is tragic, but the US as a whole has forgotton how bad it *can* be. There were many weeks during WWII where we lost more men than we have in Iraq and Afghanistan *combined* since 9/11.
 
The problem is that our leaders had plenty of information to tell them what kind of mess they were stepping into. They were ignored because politics trumped intelligence.

Alimira's comment that I know nothing "real" about it cracked me up. I've only been working for the newspaper and writing headlines, reading the stories and placing them on the page, and resizing/color-correcting photos of rubble and carbomb aftermath for years.

I wasn't the only person in the country who watched Congress authorize the use of force to get weapons inspectors in Iraq and then watch Bush stand on the sidelines tapping his foot and glaring at his watch while they tried to do their work. Then they didn't find anything and he invaded anyway.

Please don't give me the "they couldn't have known" speech. They knew. They just didn't care.
 
I work with our Military. I know people who are there, and know more who have come back. I talk with them and most of them have very forward looking views on the conflict. I agree when it's said "There's no undoing the war, so let's not do the second worse thing and leave the country in the hands of Iranian influence and a breeding ground for al Queda's agenda.".
 
Preach on it or shut the fuck up. People like you are an ever increasing minority in the service and will continue to be until this mess is over. I love how 1/100 soldiers you talk to thinks iraq is going smashingly while the other 99 are either dead, wounded, or being forced in to their 5th or better tour out there.

Interesting that you tell him to "Preach on it or shut the fuck up," then post this. How about a link to an actual opinion poll. Any real facts here, or is this just another "my opinion is the only fact I need" post. You sound like one of our esteemed Washington politicians quoting made-up numbers from polls that don't even exist.
 
We just don't have enough troops to do what we're trying to do. All reports I've seen say that violence has not gone down any, just moved to different areas, and that's all that will continue to happen.

I saw an article today that said they are looking at extending tours again, or changing the role of the reserves and national guard. The national guard can barley respond to natural disaters like floods and fires now because their men, women and equipment is in Iraq.

Then add the fact that the whole purpose of this is to give the Iraqi gov't time to make political progress, but they haven't made one stitch, not a single thing, but yet and still the administration doesn't want to put any serious consequences on them for failing. Eventually it's going to have to become a do it or else situation, and 'or else' better be something they care about losing like troops. Then if they don't, oh well, they don't want to take responsibility for their own country.

This article is an interesting read too.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electio...bush_on_iraq_majority_opposes_troops_increase
 
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Interesting that you tell him to "Preach on it or shut the fuck up," then post this. How about a link to an actual opinion poll. Any real facts here, or is this just another "my opinion is the only fact I need" post. You sound like one of our esteemed Washington politicians quoting made-up numbers from polls that don't even exist.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Edit: leiberman is a deushebag (sp); his only concern is Israel.
 
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http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Edit: leiberman is a deushebag (sp); his only concern is Israel.


I wanted to make a long reply, but people don't read on this forum so...

I disagree Sirelohir... Lieberman may have one hell of an irritating loathsome voice, but he is a very intelligent man. Too bad it wasn't Liebermann / Gore... we may not have been in this mess at all.

Dayner - your attitude depresses me. Its like a dejected: "There has always been murders, there will always be murder." America may not be in the 'right' with this war, but I'll be God damned if anyone else has stood up to save the innocent victims in the middle east.

"Stay the course," is not the phrase I'd use if I were Bush. The new plan is showing promise, but no one is willing to acknowledge it who has power - until now atleast. Go Lieberman.
 
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There were some wonderful comments on this article, and I felt even though they do not belong to QCDN, they should be re-iterated.

---

Something Worth Fighting For
Ted Smith - Salt Lake City

My father, now 82, lost the use of most of his right arm nearly 63 years ago in Belgium. He's never once complained about his sacrifice. He and I were talking a few days ago about the Iraq War, and I said some things critical of the "cut-and-run" crowd who want to declare defeat in Iraq because of 3,000 battlefield deaths. Dad said something along these lines: "We had more than 250,000 combat deaths in World War II. Now, here we are, a nation of 300 million, the strongest nation on earth, and the loss of 3000 of our sons (and daughters) causes us to shrink from fighting for our country's interest." He concluded with this sad comment, "It makes we wonder if there is anything important enough for America to fight for anymore." The death of any American soldier is a tragedy, but there are things worth fighting for. Senator Lieberman's thoughtful and honest account makes it clear that the fight in Iraq is critical to America's security and freedom and its interests in world.

---

Thank you Mr. Lieberman
Tom Noel - Perry, Ga.

I have felt this way all along. Iraq is being invaded! And not by us! Their neighbors want them to fail. Why is this not being shouted from the rooftops? They deserve our unwavering support.

---

Thank You
Karen Proctor - Portland, Ore.

Thank you Senator Lieberman. Thank you for your articulate, logical and far sighted communication based on your time in and thinking on Iraq. Your clear understanding outlines our responsibilities for our future. You have my vote.



I left out some opinions from people that were making statements on the war itself, be they good bad or indifferent. It was the WW2 veteran that touched me most.
 
Dayner - your attitude depresses me. Its like a dejected: "There has always been murders, there will always be murder." America may not be in the 'right' with this war, but I'll be God damned if anyone else has stood up to save the innocent victims in the middle east.

i know how arabs leader think if US ever leave , most arabs well only help the sunnis and leave the other to die
 
I'm not sure what "bold, new counterinsurgency strategy" he's talking about. It sounds like the same terrorist Whack-a-Mole game they've been in for years, but with extra hammers.

Giving our enemies weapons.

for reference: http://www.comedycentral.com/mother...t/index.jhtml&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_large=true

Hope that link works. It's quite funny.

Edit: Reading the comment input of others I have to nit pick the other Arab nations want Iraq to fail. That isn't true at all. Iran is exporting goods into Iraq to help the citizens of Iraq be slightly happier, the United League of Arab Nations want Iraq to have peace but want them to be independent as well so they're trying to let them fix themselves but are aiding Iraq, and Syria has reduced the amount of money that Iraq owes for damaged equipment(etc.) from the Iraq/Iran war of the 80s. I wish I still had my sources from when I had to do a research paper on Iraq, but sadly I don't have them anymore. All my information is 100% backed up with those articles too.
 
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http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Edit: leiberman is a deushebag (sp); his only concern is Israel.

You miss the point, RoM (Mokk) was talking about the morale of the military, that was the subject of the moment. (Although I'm sure it will change in this threads several times.) What the average voter thinks is significant in a Representative Republic like ours (notice I did not make the common mistake of mis-labeling the USA as a Democracy), but irrelevant when talking about troop morale. What matters here is how the troops themselves feel.

My point is simply that he calls out one person for making a generalized statement about troop morale, then does the same thing himself. It's a classic case of 1. "My opinion matters more than your's because I'm angrier," and 2. False Consensus Argument. Although RoM obviously isn't trying to deceive anyone that his numbers are scientific or legit, it's still trying to get a pass on scrutiny by an unproven claim that "everyone agrees" with him.

And as far as public opinion goes, it wins elections, but doesn't win wars, prove truth or secure the nation. Here's a brief list of unpopular ideas from the past:

The Earth is round.
The Earth revolves around the Sun.
Space is not filled with Ether (Aether if you are British and about 300 years old).
Living things on Earth do not spontaneously generate themselves from non-living matter.
 
no point in arguing over the war... wether we should be there or not be there the fact of the matter is we went to war... and because we did our soldiers, be it family or a friends... they are over there fighting because they have to stop fighting about if we should be over there and just support our soldiers.. yes we shouldnt be there any more but also if we do leave Terrorism wins... we did free a country of a evil dictator... and even after that were still there... there are multiple arguments for everyone bodies sides.. STOP FIGHTING EACHOTHER OVER WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD BE THERE.. and when our soldiers do come home dont fucking call them baby killers.... support them because at least they can put on the uniform and serv there country...
 
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