ATI Vs. Nvidia on the Console.

[Anttaru]

XboX ran off of a Nvidia GeForce 3. And even though it did have awsome capability. It was still no match for the ATI Flipper in the Game Cube which is far more capable of prouducing better graphics.

Seeking more power, Microsoft went with ATI this time for the XboX 360, which is going up against the "Nvidia RSX for the PS3" (So i have read).

It has been written that the RSX is Equivalent to 2 Nvidia 6800 on SLI. Which has been said to be inferior to the ATI Xenos in the XboX360.

*"the RSX can process 24 pixels with its 24 pipelines while an Xbox 360 powered with ATI's Xenos, R500 chip can do double that, 48 pixels per clock."*

Now having an awsome GPU dosn't mean you're bound to see better graphics on it. Sony seems to have better designers working for them already.

"If" the 360 really is capable prouducing better graphics than the PS3, then it is only a matter of time before the 360 does the PS3 wrong.

When the PS3 is released, only then will we be able to pop it open and check out the true specs. I think Game developers will do that as soon as they can, and when they do, that is when the shit hits the fan.

Perhapse it's Microsofts plan to wait for Sony to bring the ruckus before the XboX really starts to blossom ? All 3 companies have a large place in my heart, and i would actually be excited and dumbfounded if the 360 ended up punking off the PS3, with a bunch of titles they been keeping top secret, which would make their early release of their 360 an even greater advantage. Maybe we'll just sail into the exspected, and the PS3 will rule over the 360 for the whole 5 years, which would be boring.

 

[Shaunessy]

Plus the only way you are going to actually notice the graphics that much is to get a monitor that is capable of producing 1080p. Now I don't know about everyone else but I'm not willing to dish out the money for 1080p just yet. 720p is where it's at for price, and after playing SC: DA on a 37 inch widescreen on 720p, I can't see how PS3 is really going to look much better than that. Can't wait to see what Gears of War is going to look like on it.

 

[Marajade]

you cant get superior grapical resolution with a 360 unless you have a truly high end TV. The PS3 is suposed to be able to generate Superior grapics on any screen, not just the 3,000$+ ones.

 

[Shaunessy]

you cant get superior grapical resolution with a 360 unless you have a truly high end TV. The PS3 is suposed to be able to generate Superior grapics on any screen, not just the 3,000$+ ones.

How is that even possible, a console isn't going to magically up the screen resolution of your TV.

 

[Tagrineth]

Mara, the output resolution is limited by your TV either way. Even if the PS3 cost $10,000, it wouldn't be able to output a 720p or 1080 line picture on a non HD TV. Thanks for the FUD though...

Console graphics quality much more than PC graphics is limited by the artists. Quite often, technical marvels will not *look* much different from games that just have damn good texturing and good use of fewer polygons. Final Fantasy X, for example, actually has very weak graphics as far as the technical aspects go, but the art is spectacular and makes the game look really quite nice, despite its technical shortcomings. Other games like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance also have great art even though they aren't technically impressive at all.

As far as the Xbox 360 vs. the Sony PS3 is concerned, it's really a balancing act. We don't know exactly what RSX will be capable of yet, but my own assumption is that it will likely be somewhat limited compared to Xenos - feature wise, not performance wise - and PS3 will, like PS2, end up being a CPU juggernaut. Xbox 360 on the other hand has a very balanced architecture, with no one component being excessively overpowered or underpowered compared to the rest of the system.

The only way PS3 clearly dominates 360 from what we currently know is memory. PS3 games ship on BRDs which hold some 50 GB of data, while 360 is limited to DVD9. Also, the PS3 has twice as much total RAM as the 360. What this means is PS3 will have a higher potential for higher resolution textures (most noticeable at 1080 line resolutions) to be used throughout an entire scene.


Edit: Oh, by the way.

XboX ran off of a Nvidia GeForce 3. And even though it did have awsome capability. It was still no match for the ATI Flipper in the Game Cube which is far more capable of prouducing better graphics.

The nVidia NV2A - which is not a GeForce3 - is actually more capable than the ArtX Flipper - developed by ArtX, who was bought by ATi shortly before the cube's release. The key differences between the two that blur the performance advantage are pretty simple, though:

1. Flipper has embedded memory to increase throughput dramatically; for comparison, the NV2A shares one system bus with the Xbox's CPU

2. Flipper has a significantly better CPU backing it up, and significantly lower latency on its path to main memory

3. (the more technical and obscure one) Flipper can alternate between texture combine operations and texture reads/writes, which saves fillrate and rendering passes while using pixel shaders. NV2A can either combine or read/write during a pass, but not both. What this means is that while NV2A can do more complex shaders more easily, it burns fillrate while doing so. Flipper's more simple shaders take a much lower performance hit.

 

[Anttaru]

The NV20 XboX GPU, is the Geforce 3, only a different name.

Dated link
http://amo.net/NT/03-01-01XBOX.html

All 3 systems can do things the others cannot.

Using photos as textures on surfacing is an XboX norm, where as the game cube does not do this on wide scale. The Cube has proven to be the texture king by showing many examples of scratch method procedures. No system would match the Cube's Bump mapping, and even if liked or not, Legend of Zelda the Windwaker is infact a technological Miracle of CG cell shading. Such attributes, like bump mapping play an important role in what makes 3D look great. Which is lighting. How lighting turns out is all up to the artist too.

XboX is supose to be the geometry king. I find it unfortunate that the system never had developers that would make the best of the XboX. Most of the games made for XboX only did suck, Even the Metal Gear Solid on XboX i'm sure is the best version, too bad Konami never released it for XboX first, even up to this day when people think sons of liberty, they think PS2.

Microsoft needs to go on a man hunt for talented developers and programers and start writing big ass checks and build a elite dream team to make something awsome for the 360.

 

[Anttaru]

you cant get superior grapical resolution with a 360 unless you have a truly high end TV. The PS3 is suposed to be able to generate Superior grapics on any screen, not just the 3,000$+ ones.

Well the PS3 is ready to play on HD which is nice. The 360 is supose to release an adapter to allow it to be played in HD resolutions. I think the earlier generation games on the 360 will suffer just a little bit from this, as those games were probably not meant to be exposed through an HD signal.

Now i'm wanting the 360 to mash the PS3, cause the PS3 is already exciting.

 

[Marajade]

Mara, the output resolution is limited by your TV either way. Even if the PS3 cost $10,000, it wouldn't be able to output a 720p or 1080 line picture on a non HD TV. Thanks for the FUD though...

The PS3 generates a higher standard of image, wheras the 360 just looks better on a better TV.

As noted, compare FFVIII screens with say, Oblivion.

 

[Tagrineth]

NV2A isn't a GeForce3... -_- It isn't NV20, it's NV2A.

Mara, no. The output quality is going to be the same either way. FFXIII and Oblivion are two entirely different games, and this is an example like what I mentioned in my previous post of artwork. Square has always had unbelievably stunning art direction and FFXIII is no exception.

Not only that but when those early videos were released, PS3's hardware wasn't finalised yet (note that after those demos, they changed the spec at least once since then) - which suggests to me those were SGI target renders, NOT running on real hardware. I don't know for sure either way but that's how it seems to me.

The only thing that might put PS3's output above 360's on a basic level is that PS3 has an HDMI connector (ONLY FOR THE $600 MODEL BTW). 360 does not. However, the 1080p and Component cable specifications were modified recently, and Microsoft is jumping on the new ability to transmit a 1080p image over component cables... which makes HDMI not entirely necessary anyway.

Anyway, when you get down to it, that "outputs a higher quality image!" tripe is nothing more than marketing FUD meant to make fanboys drool.

 

[Anttaru]

Well... Every source confirms to me that the XboX GPU is the Geforce 3 core design.

I think the PS3 will need to be toggled in some menu beofore it shows it's high end resolution in HD. I'd assume the rest will be the AV cable and S-Video cable.

Playing the game in high-defination really is a nice touch if you're doing some snipering. You'd be able to focus you're eye on an even smaller cluster of pixles giving the sense you can see sharper into a great depth.

Watching a movie in HD is so sharp, you can see the pores on peoples skin pretty easily. HD video game is just another application to the whole experience of it.

 

[Shaunessy]

Well the PS3 is ready to play on HD which is nice. The 360 is supose to release an adapter to allow it to be played in HD resolutions. I think the earlier generation games on the 360 will suffer just a little bit from this, as those games were probably not meant to be exposed through an HD signal.

Now i'm wanting the 360 to mash the PS3, cause the PS3 is already exciting.

??? So 720p isn't HD? I don't know where you got your info but 360 is standard HD.

 

[Tagrineth]

Well... Every source confirms to me that the XboX GPU is the Geforce 3 core design.

It was developed around the same time as GeForce3 but has several features (most notably memory bandwidth saving features) trickled down from GeForce4 (NV25 series) and GeForce FX (NV30 series). As far as specific feature lists go, sure, it has a good amount in common with GeForce3 but it isn't a GF3, it's a chip based on the same architecture.

I think the PS3 will need to be toggled in some menu beofore it shows it's high end resolution in HD. I'd assume the rest will be the AV cable and S-Video cable.

Well the PS3 is ready to play on HD which is nice. The 360 is supose to release an adapter to allow it to be played in HD resolutions. I think the earlier generation games on the 360 will suffer just a little bit from this, as those games were probably not meant to be exposed through an HD signal.

Based on these two quotes, I really don't think you know a damn thing about HDTV.

An HD signal cannot be carried over Composite (commonly referred to as "AV" though AV is a pretty general term) or S-Video cables. It isn't physically possible. The cable quality and bandwidth simply isn't good enough. They could potentially transmit 480p at best but it would be fuzzy, and 480p isn't exactly "high definition", just a small step up from regular TV signals.

The original Xbox is capable of outputting both 720p and 1080i, as evidenced by various sports games supporting 720p. I believe the only Xbox classic game that supported 1080i was Dragon's Lair, but I'm not positive about this. What makes you think the 360 will suffer when outputting HD images? Even 360 launch titles support 720p output.

There is no "adapter" or "switch" or "toggle", it just requires a set of Component video cables. PS3 won't be able to do anything magical either. It will require Component or HDMI to output HDTV signals (note, again, HDMI is not present on the $500 model), and neither cable is being sold with the system which is a major ripoff (360 platinum system includes Component cables).

 

[Anttaru]

Well the PS3 is ready to play on HD which is nice. The 360 is supose to release an adapter to allow it to be played in HD resolutions. I think the earlier generation games on the 360 will suffer just a little bit from this, as those games were probably not meant to be exposed through an HD signal.

??? So 720p isn't HD? I don't know where you got your info but 360 is standard HD.

The Hell ?

I was pointing out how if you want to play the 360 on a High defination TV. you need the attachment (which was released later and is sold seperatly, maybe now it's included in the package)

When did i say 720 progressive lines isn't standard ?

 

[Anttaru]

Listen carefully Tagrineth.

I said the PS3 most likely will have to be toggled in a menu before it can display on a HDTV. Maybe this will be automatic.

for the sake of clearity....

"The rest being AV cable and S-Video" Being the rest as in

1. AV Cable

2. S-Video

If i were to list HD cable that would be number 3. So it's kinda hard headed to assume that i implemented that 1 or 2 will carry an HD signal. Read my post again and reconize, AV cable and S-Video is "The rest".

Now about the XboX's GPU. Why is there a million tec sites that claim the Xbox's GPU is the same architecture as the Geforce 3. That also clock the same speeds and carry out the same capabilities, and they are from Nvidia. Surely that wern't made from 2 different directions and met up so accurately. But whatever. I'm open for debate but if you take what i say and assume i said something else again (In this case i was accused of saying something totally retarded) I'd then think you hear what you wish. I'll definatly ask you not to reak up my thread by putting word in my mouth cause of you're assumptions. It's not what this thread is about.

 

[Tagrineth]

The xbox 360 requires no "addon" or "attachment" to display HDTV resolutions. In fact, the platinum 360 box comes with an Component video cable, which is all you need.

By contrast, even the $600 PS3 with its present HDMI port - since the lovely $500 model doesn't have one - doesn't ship with one.

Stop spreading Sony FUD.

Please.


oh, and nothing will display HD by default. Even if you have the right cables (well... excluding maybe HDMI) there's no guarantee the TV will support the HD resolution. If the console went "ooh, HD cables, 1080 line time!", there'd be a lot of customer complaints. My own personal TV doesn't even support 480p but it has Component inputs.

All three systems will require toggling in a menu for HD output, just like the current generation.

 

[Anttaru]

The xbox 360 requires no "addon" or "attachment" to display HDTV resolutions. In fact, the platinum 360 box comes with an Component video cable, which is all you need.

Fine then go Platinum package.

By contrast, even the $600 PS3 with its present HDMI port - since the lovely $500 model doesn't have one - doesn't ship with one.

Stop spreading Sony FUD.

Please.

What is FUD ? And i'm not spreading anything for Sony, i clearly worte how exciting it would be if the 360 blew away Sony this time. Whats the matter with you ? Stop pissing in my cornflakes.

oh, and nothing will display HD by default. Even if you have the right cables (well... excluding maybe HDMI) there's no guarantee the TV will support the HD resolution. If the console went "ooh, HD cables, 1080 line time!", there'd be a lot of customer complaints. My own personal TV doesn't even support 480p but it has Component inputs.

Why are you saying this to me ? It's obvious that HD cables will only work on an HDTV. Damn you for trying to teach me this ?

All three systems will require toggling in a menu for HD output, just like the current generation.

Yes i mentioned that twice. And not that i want to further argue, but the Wii will not have HD capability. Now make no mistake. HDTV can display the Wii and just about anything with a standard V Cable. Just that it won't be the the HD quality we even buy HDTVs for in the first place.

 

[Shaunessy]

The Hell ?

I was pointing out how if you want to play the 360 on a High defination TV. you need the attachment (which was released later and is sold seperatly, maybe now it's included in the package)

When did i say 720 progressive lines isn't standard ?

Maybe for all you poor bastards that bought the lol standard package. Mine came with a hard disk drive, HD cables, and a nice little wireless controller and a head set for all of my XBL golden upgraded glory.

Mainly though I think your point should be..."If you want to play 360 on a high definition TV, well, maybe you should get a high definition TV." Huh?!?

 

[Tagrineth]

Wii will have widescreen 480p support.

Nothing too spectacular, but it does require component cables.


FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

I said that because the way you talked about 360 needing an "adapter" and early 360 games "will suffer" it sounds like you're making 360 sound crap for people that want HD games.

You aren't inflating the PS3 like a retard COUGHMARAJADECOUGH but you're still making 360 sound bad by comparison in ways that don't make sense.

 

[Anttaru]

More about the XboX 360's HDMI Cable (That has yet to be released) Which will be accompanied by a software update. From what i gather will grant the XboX360 1080i capability. Users should be able to experience immediate upscaling in games too. Other sources indicate that Microsoft has yet to release the HDMI due to the fact they themselves are unsure as to where progressive scan will go within the next 5 years.

The point to releasing HDMI on the 360 is to distinguish yet another PS3 feature that would have been unique. There is a battle of who will display at greater resolution. For all we know Microsoft won't even mass prouduce the HDMI cable and finalize it's HD software for the HDMI cable until they can pop open a PS3 and see what they are doing.

 

[Anttaru]

Wii will have widescreen 480p support.

Nothing too spectacular, but it does require component cables.


FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

I said that because the way you talked about 360 needing an "adapter" and early 360 games "will suffer" it sounds like you're making 360 sound crap for people that want HD games.

You aren't inflating the PS3 like a retard COUGHMARAJADECOUGH but you're still making 360 sound bad by comparison in ways that don't make sense.

I said they "might suffer" but who knows for sure.

Nothing wrong with needing parts to advance. Without extended hardware and software the XboX360 isn't just going to advance on it's own.

I cannot make the 360 sound crap for people who want to play on HD. I don't even know what would happen if you tried to play it on a 1080 HD screen without the HDMI cable. Maybe it will auto scale, or maybe it will do nothing. I can't confirm what would happen.

EDIT: Buest guess the picture will be blurry, as AV feeds appears kinda blurry on HD sets

....

Not that i wanted this, but i feel i have to explain myself.

- All 3 systems will be on my table. I will eventually favour one the most and one the least. Now i haven't a favourite, and see more potential in the PS3, basically because it already has games that i want. this does not disclude the fact i want something better than the PS3, and it really would excite me if the 360 will do just that. No other system can.

- I don't disclude the Wii, but the Wii is not focusing on graphics like the other 2 systems are. Even though the Wii is said to be able to achieve the capabilities of 3 game cubes, (which is insane), Microsoft and Sony are able to out due the Wii in this area. Nintendo is looking to carry curious gamers into the next generation and make new gamers aswell. Nintendo appearantly made something that is affordable and clevarly designed, leaving Microsoft and Sony to scrap it out for themselves. The Wii is likely to rule the market due to it's price and interesting aspects to gaming. Still i want to talk about what the more powerful systems will bring.
In no way am i trying to discourage anyones preferences.

- I made this thread to gather and share information, Not be accused of saying shit i never said or be bombarded by you two, who mock basically everything i bring to this table.

- I wanted this to be a good thread, but unfortunatly the one who started the thread has been accused of FUD, favourtisim, and literally taken the wrong way. This thread has been defiled, and very soon may belong with the rest of the filth in the flameboard. Which would be a damn shamed.

- I don't doubt new information unless there is information that dismisses it. Some of you seem to see that as a bad thing. In this thread if i were to change, only 'then' will i start to disagree.

- I never wanted to have to talk about myself, but i had to for the sake of clearity. I have no enemies, however Tagrineth, you are so natural at coming at me with you're head screwed on backwards as though i said something that would drive you to pester me like you do. I dislike when words are forced into my mouth, concerning myself being false labeled.