Boy, 11, accused of killing father's pregnant girlfriend

[Elemmire]

I'm not being naive. I just don't believe a person's right to dignity or that constitutional guarantees against cruel and unusual punishment end the second they're accused of a crime, much less convicted. Again, this is why I'm glad you're not in charge of the justice system, since justice would quickly evaporate with your attitude.

There are plenty of people on death row (and pushing up daisies in a field somewhere) who were innocent of their crimes. Are you really wanting to make the point that they "dehumanized" themselves and got what they deserved, Elemmire? I hope not.

oh I'm no fool to believe that innocent people were mistakenly punished, but with improved technology getting away with crimes is harder and harder these days. Those who are wrongfully accused are, hopefully, becoming less and less part of the statistic.

To be a bit on a tangent: punishments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE CRUEL AND UNUSUAL! If it was usual, people would be used to it and it'd have no or almost no effect. And the cruel part inflicts pain on them and, thus, teaches them NOT to do it again. Why do so many people insist on not using that which nature has implanted in us to help shape behavior? Are you the kind that's against spanking a child? Now, I'm not saying always use that punishment style or be the first one, but use it when it's needed :\

Now, with the murderers/rapists, punish them so severely for doing wrong and to teach others that is what's coming for them. Sure it's a "punishment in hopes to prevent others" which is controversial because there's no evidence it does keep others from doing the crime, but there's nothing proving it isn't working either. And, as far as I'm concerned, if it even keeps one person from doing it, it's a success considering it's also punishing those who did such sickening things. And, true, there will, even with more improved technology, be the rare innocent that is put through it. And I agree it's a shame, but the one rare unfortunate example isn't enough, imo, to end a system that punishes those who truly deserve it in a way they deserved to be punished.

As for your claims of justice being quickly evaporated with my mindset, you're wrong. YOUR justice maybe, but that's the thing.. what is justice to some one might not be justice to another.. and, usually, most people's justice isn't TRUE fair justice for all but what's justice for them and their family and people that matter to them, not necessarily fair to the rest of the world. Hell, I could go through and find a vast sum of present laws that aren't made in the interest of the people as a whole but for one group of people. My justice doesn't give a shit if someone who's rich and can get such lawyers to get outta jail time, doesn't care about idiot people in juries who let emotions get in the way of true justice.. who let this sad belief that every person on the planet is deserving of equal treatment when those people do such horrible wrong TO our planet and our society. Those people DON'T deserve fair treatment.. they don't even deserve to be considered people or true humans as far as I'm concerned.

I really should organize this post better btw but I'm way too tired these days ~_~ I haven't slept well in ages so if you can't understand exactly what I mean well.. I can always try to explain better. But don't think I'm just "oh kill em all!" without the chance of defending themselves. I'm not even for "kill em all!" if there isn't enough hard evidence.. but this case is quite clear.. plenty of evidence.. don't care if it's a child or an adult.. a murderer who intended to murder is still a murderer and a waste of our planet's resources.

 

[bigbroon]

Bigbroon, are you saying that this 11 years old kid didn't know that shooting someone with a shot gun is wrong?

then the father either didnt taught him that shooting at someone is wrong, or the kid is mess up

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there's a very real possibility that he didn't plan the whole thing out, and just shot her in the spur of the moment. Or, said in another way, I've yet to see the evidence to convince me that he planne it out. We're basing all these discussions on the assumption that he killed her, which we don't know 100% anyway, but I'm happy to assume that. A question nobody seems to have asked is: If the father was "out" and the step-mother was "asleep" or "in her bed", who was watching these children? Or is an 11-year-old and a 4-year-old in the house on their own common practice?

 

[Skaw]

I wonder what kind of life you've lived to believe one parent working while the other pregnant parent takes a nap while taking care of the children is an unrealistic set of circumstances. Single child?

 

[Tristam Green]

To be a bit on a tangent: punishments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE CRUEL AND UNUSUAL! If it was usual, people would be used to it and it'd have effect. And the cruel part inflicts pain on them and, thus, teaches them NOT to do it again. Why do so many people insist on not using that which nature has implanted in us to help shape behavior? Are you the kind that's against spanking a child? Now, I'm not saying always use that punishment style or be the first one, but use it when it's needed :\

lol, I'm so glad you aren't running for office.

Punishments are not supposed to be cruel and unusual.

Starving someone in a jail for stealing a loaf of bread? No.
Slicing off someone's hand for hitting a girl? No.
Eviscerating someone for speaking against his government? Hell no.


FYI: If you think spanking a child is cruel and unusual, shame on you. You don't intentionally harm the child, you get his attention. It's not cruel because it (shouldn't) doesn't leave a lasting effect on the child aside from "damn, I better not do that, or I'll get a spanking!" and it's not unusual (well, maybe it is nowadays).

I swear, if this turns into a "you shouldn't/should spank your kids" debate, I'll fuckin scream lol. This thread's been derailed and rerailed too many times already.

 

[Gerry]

lol, I'm so glad you aren't running for office.

Punishments are not supposed to be cruel and unusual.

Starving someone in a jail for stealing a loaf of bread? No.
Slicing off someone's hand for hitting a girl? No.
Eviscerating someone for speaking against his government? Hell no.


FYI: If you think spanking a child is cruel and unusual, shame on you. You don't intentionally harm the child, you get his attention. It's not cruel because it (shouldn't) doesn't leave a lasting effect on the child aside from "damn, I better not do that, or I'll get a spanking!" and it's not unusual (well, maybe it is nowadays).

I swear, if this turns into a "you shouldn't/should spank your kids" debate, I'll fuckin scream lol. This thread's been derailed and rerailed too many times already.

This I agree with. When I was naughty as a kid, I got spanked, and by god did I learn my lesson. Though apparently in the UK it is now illegal to spank your kids >_> I kid you not.

 

[Tyrath]

Now, with the murderers/rapists, punish them so severely for doing wrong and to teach others that is what's coming for them. Sure it's a "punishment in hopes to prevent others" which is controversial because there's no evidence it does keep others from doing the crime, but there's nothing proving it isn't working either.

Do you know what burden of proof means? lol

TG covered the rest of the stuff I was gonna reply to. D;

 

[Elemmire]

lol, I'm so glad you aren't running for office.

Punishments are not supposed to be cruel and unusual.

Starving someone in a jail for stealing a loaf of bread? No.
Slicing off someone's hand for hitting a girl? No.
Eviscerating someone for speaking against his government? Hell no.


FYI: If you think spanking a child is cruel and unusual, shame on you. You don't intentionally harm the child, you get his attention. It's not cruel because it (shouldn't) doesn't leave a lasting effect on the child aside from "damn, I better not do that, or I'll get a spanking!" and it's not unusual (well, maybe it is nowadays).

I swear, if this turns into a "you shouldn't/should spank your kids" debate, I'll fuckin scream lol. This thread's been derailed and rerailed too many times already.

it is unusual lol.. if your parents were spanking you every day, then it'd be a usual thing. It's unusual cause it doesn't happen USUALLY. Or were you a kid that was getting spanked every day on a usual basis? my parents spanked but they didn't spank often, it was only if I was being a real brat and it wasn't every day, so it was unusual and it was, in a way, cruel, because it caused pain. I for one am ok with people spanking their kids, even in public, I think it's stupid that these days it has become almost taboo to spank your child and it's "child abuse" when really it isn't.. but ahh well.

And since when did I say starvation for stealing a loaf of bread? pfft, my punishment for that would be making the person work for the person they stole from but then at the same time trying to use government money to help them find a job cause obviously they are starving to that degree and they need food bad so they need the help. Just because they are starving to the point they steal food doesn't automatically mean that their crime was "ok" because it isn't ok. But it doesn't warrant such extremes as starving them.

You're thinking is that I would go to the whole.. what was it.. Hammurabi Code (I think), well I'm not quite like that. Not at all. The only ones I would warrant such harsh punishments and, ultimately, life ending, are to those who do extreme harm to another or multiple people's lives knowingly and with no remorse or guilt. Murderers and Rapists, more often than not, tend to know what they are doing and tend to have no care of what they did.. even then, even if they did care, I don't see any reason for them to be around anymore. They are only harmful to society and they've already proven themselves to be truly inhumane so there's no reason to be humane towards them.

Seriously, might as well treat them like animals or less than animals. When a dog bites a child, it's usual for the dog to be put down.. so why not do the same to the guy who rapes or murders a child or anyone for that matter? Because they have the physical form of a human? Hell, get rid of them just for the sake of saving resources for someone who's more deserving of such.

It still surprises me how many naive and foolish people there are when it comes to such things. I mean, seriously, how about that guy that kidnapped, raped, and then was going to cut out the woman's eyes cause a "blind woman can't finger her assaulter if she can't see him" (lucky she got away before he did)? You wanna waste food, shelter, money, and time on such a lowlife scumbag? Bullet to the brain and move on with life, the asshole doesn't deserve any time in the spot light cause of the media nor any luxury as being given food and shelter on the tax payer's dollar.

Do realize, those two groups of people are pretty much the only ones I'd never try or care to reform or give any second chance. All other criminals I tend to be more lenient towards and I believe should be reformed (though maybe the guy who was in charge of Exxon or whatever it was years back that screwed so many outta their life savings with that shell game, knowingly, without care, and based on pure greed.. maybe he too should just be killed off.. fucking over so many for himself.. despicable)

 

[Tymon]

it is unusual lol.. if your parents were spanking you every day, then it'd be a usual thing. It's unusual cause it doesn't happen USUALLY. Or were you a kid that was getting spanked every day on a usual basis? my parents spanked but they didn't spank often, it was only if I was being a real brat and it wasn't every day, so it was unusual and it was, in a way, cruel, because it caused pain. I for one am ok with people spanking their kids, even in public, I think it's stupid that these days it has become almost taboo to spank your child and it's "child abuse" when really it isn't.. but ahh well.

 

[Tristam Green]

Elemmire, you're so full of shit, I honestly wonder if you aren't prescribed massive doses of Kaopectate to remedy it.

it is unusual lol.. if your parents were spanking you every day, then it'd be a usual thing. It's unusual cause it doesn't happen USUALLY. Or were you a kid that was getting spanked every day on a usual basis? my parents spanked but they didn't spank often, it was only if I was being a real brat and it wasn't every day, so it was unusual and it was, in a way, cruel, because it caused pain. I for one am ok with people spanking their kids, even in public, I think it's stupid that these days it has become almost taboo to spank your child and it's "child abuse" when really it isn't.. but ahh well.

Don't get into semantics about what's "unusual". If my parents spanked me daily, it was because I did something warranting the spanking, just like any criminal would be fined/jailed/arrested daily if he did something warranting that kind of reaction.

Getting my fucking screaming over with now, but spanking is anything but cruel, and it only hurts for a little.

And since when did I say starvation for stealing a loaf of bread? pfft, my punishment for that would be making the person work for the person they stole from but then at the same time trying to use government money to help them find a job cause obviously they are starving to that degree and they need food bad so they need the help. Just because they are starving to the point they steal food doesn't automatically mean that their crime was "ok" because it isn't ok. But it doesn't warrant such extremes as starving them.

k. Make up your mind then. If your dog acts up, you put a shock collar on him or cut his nuts off. Treat a human as such, or worse, were your words verbatim. I'll hand you the shock collar and the scalpel, and a criminal. You do the deed.

You're thinking is that I would go to the whole.. what was it.. Hammurabi Code (I think), well I'm not quite like that. Not at all. The only ones I would warrant such harsh punishments and, ultimately, life ending, are to those who do extreme harm to another or multiple people's lives knowingly and with no remorse or guilt. Murderers and Rapists, more often than not, tend to know what they are doing and tend to have no care of what they did.. even then, even if they did care, I don't see any reason for them to be around anymore. They are only harmful to society and they've already proven themselves to be truly inhumane so there's no reason to be humane towards them.

Seriously, might as well treat them like animals or less than animals. When a dog bites a child, it's usual for the dog to be put down.. so why not do the same to the guy who rapes or murders a child or anyone for that matter? Because they have the physical form of a human? Hell, get rid of them just for the sake of saving resources for someone who's more deserving of such.

It still surprises me how many naive and foolish people there are when it comes to such things. I mean, seriously, how about that guy that kidnapped, raped, and then was going to cut out the woman's eyes cause a "blind woman can't finger her assaulter if she can't see him" (lucky she got away before he did)? You wanna waste food, shelter, money, and time on such a lowlife scumbag? Bullet to the brain and move on with life, the asshole doesn't deserve any time in the spot light cause of the media nor any luxury as being given food and shelter on the tax payer's dollar.

Do realize, those two groups of people are pretty much the only ones I'd never try or care to reform or give any second chance. All other criminals I tend to be more lenient towards and I believe should be reformed (though maybe the guy who was in charge of Exxon or whatever it was years back that screwed so many outta their life savings with that shell game, knowingly, without care, and based on pure greed.. maybe he too should just be killed off.. fucking over so many for himself.. despicable)

The rest of this just screams that you need to define your stance and stick to it. In the meantime, I'll enjoy seeing you waffle more than a politician the day after an election.

 

[Elemmire]

Don't get into semantics about what's "unusual". If my parents spanked me daily, it was because I did something warranting the spanking, just like any criminal would be fined/jailed/arrested daily if he did something warranting that kind of reaction.

Getting my fucking screaming over with now, but spanking is anything but cruel, and it only hurts for a little.

nothing semantics about it, it clearly is unusual. Hell, it's not usual for the average person to be locked up against their will, so even jail time is cruel and unusual. Cruel because it also takes people's freedom to move about and the other aspects of it. But the point of jail, also, is to reform them, and I'm not for reforming those truly terrible people who are a waste on society's precious resources (don't even PRETEND this planet's resources are limitless, hell, if we want everyone in the world to live like a middle class American, the planet's resources could only support 3 billion people, and then there's the job market and such.. not enough jobs on the planet to even employ all 6.5 billion of us)

k. Make up your mind then. If your dog acts up, you put a shock collar on him or cut his nuts off. Treat a human as such, or worse, were your words verbatim. I'll hand you the shock collar and the scalpel, and a criminal. You do the deed.

Hehe, it's true it's not easy to do that to a person, but, again, they aren't people (they being rapists and murderers) in my opinion. They dehumanized themselves and so I have no care about treating them humanely. Hell, I'd think of worse things to do to them than mere shock collar and a scalpel to those who are so sick as the example I gave above.

The rest of this just screams that you need to define your stance and stick to it. In the meantime, I'll enjoy seeing you waffle more than a politician the day after an election.

I haven't done ANY "Waffling" or whatever. Not once did I say that every criminal would be treated so harshly by my mentality >.> only rapists/murderers. It basically comes down to my rule of "if you do anything, intentionally, to do severe damage to another person's life and well being". If someone does something, with conscious thought, to do harm to a person or people for something selfish or whatever.. well.. I find them scum. I'm very bad at explaining myself and things but ya ~_~ I hope you get what I mean. But don't think ANYTHING I've said has changed. You made the assumption that I meant all criminals get punished so severely, no. Only those truly terrible people (and I tend to lump all murderers and rapists into that category and then, rarely, do I add maybe someone who didn't murder or rape but did something so horrible and consciously so).

Man, I still find it amusing that people have this false belief that there's "good" in everyone and that "Everyone" deserves equal treatment even after they do something so horrible towards society or one of its productive members. Foolish naivety.

 

[sophitia]

1st post and sry if this becomes a wall of text i suck at structuring when i type alot, but i have to speak on this arguement between TG and ele, why is it we live in a world where the human rights of murderers and rapists and more important than the human rights of the victims, examples here in UK

woman accuses a man of abusing her growing up, she suffered severe panic attacks twice during trial and ran out, then judge jails her and lets him walk free on bail, luckily after her accusation fell through 2 others had come forward and he was charged

few years back ppl who had been jailed for murder and rape won a human rights case as to it breeched their human rights to slop out, which means they merely had to piss in a bottle, of course human rights wasnt a fucking issue when they killed and raped innocent ppl

woman sells her child to a poedophile(sp) for £50k gets PS3 in her cell for good behaviour, yeah we all know law abiding ppl get fucking PS3's for free cause they're behaving,

now i cant say id go as far as ele but human rights needs to be dropped alot in cases of murder and rape if its clear they're guilty, also on topic i cant say how i feel about this boy, he was only 11

conditions here in UK jails is actually sounding like 5 star hotels instead of a place where ppl go to be punished for their crimes and like ele said all on tax payers cash

sry if that was poorly structured but had to speak on this