Changes in policy

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Things are going to change around here, and quickly.

Starting today, ask yourself one simple question before you post anything:

IS MY POST/REPLY FUNNY, INFORMATIVE, INTERESTING, OR DOES IT CONTRIBUTE TO THE DISCUSSION AT A MEANINGFUL LEVEL?

If you cannot answer yes to this, do not post. And just for reference, the following things are NOT worthwhile posts:

- Stupid one-liners (I know, I have been guilty of this in the past, but I'm stopping them and so are you.)

- Image-macro replies (Things like the Attention Whore image, Internet Arguing/Retarded, anything you would find on Ebaums, etc.)

- Betting on if a thread will reach X number of pages.

Note that this is just a guideline - just because it's not one of those above does not mean it's automatically a content-worthy post. Myself, Asia and
Sculli have final say as to whether or not what you are posting is a contribution or just retarded ++ery.

IF YOU ARE UNSURE IF YOUR POST IS ZERO-CONTENT, DO NOT POST IT.

Zero-content posts will be deleted. If your post is deleted, do not re-post it. Threads that are zero-content circlejerks will be locked. Threads that turn into zero-content circlejerks will stay open, but with all zero-content posts removed.

Secondly, thread derails. People do them. People, for whatever reason, enjoy taking threads and becoming their center of attention. It happens a lot, there are multiple offenders across the board. They can, within 2-3 posts, ruin a thread.

This is no longer acceptable.
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Starting at the top. I think whether a post is informative is pretty straightforward. Funny and interesting are not, one person's intent may to be funny, it may not be funny to most people or to Cubs and Sculli, does that make it a thread crap or zero content? Should that person be penalized? Instead of saying "your posts arent funny", a more objective way to penalize this act is if a poster spams questionably humorous posts to where it becomes an obvious, intentful detriment. Interesting: this too is subjective, if you think someone isn't interesting tell them, and debate about it, don't make like an elitist and say your intellect bores me to no end: delete.

Now Cubs may also be saying just think before you post, ok, yeah thats fine, but I'm sure people make posts Cubs may not see as worthwhile....but those people have fought through it.

Image-macro replies: ok thats fine, its clearcut.

Stupid one liners: What makes it stupid? Is it stupid because of poor grammar, is it stupid because it isn't up to your standards of wit? Idk, Cubs does I guess.

I personally love the following disclaimer which basically says "or anything else I can come up with", you know what it reminds me of, my HS conduct code book that gave administrators to define pretty much any offense, which is ridiculous.

I have to meet someone for dinner I'll finish zero-content part soon.
 
I'll read all 5 pages when I get back from folding my clothes, but I'd just like to say bein' here for almost 2 years, I think it's pretty shitty that you have 2 people bitching about the FB and now you're gonna change it?

There is nothing wrong with the FB except it needed some moderation. We have that. I realize this site isn't a democracy Sculli, but the FB is supposed to be no holds barred etc. Sure there are stupid posters, but friggin' scroll by them. Y'all changing the FB because Ghost and Shai (sorry guys, nothing personal, but this is bullshit imho) said something is totally ludicrous in my eyes.

Now I can see y'all stopping the PC+1's cuz they're trying to win a bet and get it to so many pages, but there is nothing wrong with the one liners and people making jokes.

Lastly, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
 
FB not anarchy anymore!?!!

My apologies that I haven't broken in sooner on this banter. I'm not exactly sure but anarchy reigns supreme is supposed to be off the hook; Unless, I'm mistaken in my definition of the word. Furthermore, while moderation might be necessary there are times that the 'one liners' and occasional derailment of a thread due to statements made by a poster in previous session are necessary. As many have pointed out, one line may be all that is necessary.

I'm afraid that the explination as to what is and is not allowed is incredibly vague. Sculli and Cubs you need to explain yourselves more thoroughly before institution of these rulings. As was earlier noted, is the merit of someone's posting stupid and infantile or worthless shit because you deem it so? And if so what are the specific guidelines of the posting procedure. I agree that meaningless drivel with no bearing on the situation and suddenly popping in with "Fuck-wad" or "Shit cock" is rediculous and should expect to be removed. However, you have left too much to a grey area rather than making specific defenitions or concrete examples to pattern future threads and posts after.

All most of us are asking is if this is to be a place to vent your anger/frustration/rage or merely a place to laugh at the idiocy or misfortune of others then it needs to be left as such without cracking back on those very folks who may have a take. Have a take, don't suck..no problem with that ideology here. Just be a bit more specific as to what you guys want to see or don't sound so broad when handing down "sanctions" especially when its things that folks like Cubs have admittedly done.
 
Sculli said:
This is indeed an option, but I decided against it because it would affect all users alike, and I felt that it wasn't justifyable to screw everyone over just because a few can not get their act together. The new policy is aimed at a very small and specific subset of all flameboard posts, while not at all affecting the rest of the posters.
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what's so bad about that? There's really nothing bad about making it so post count doesn't go up in this section. I wouldn't care. Post count is meaingless to me. Another forum I visit now and then has a serious discussion (for serious matters of whatever it might be and is modded so no post count+1 no crap threads etc) and the other has no post count+ when you post. It is spam and random crap and just flames and whatnot. Place of freedom for everyone but a place where posting won't post+1 for those that don't like it. A serious discussion shouldn't really be on a FLAME board after all. In my opinion.
 
Mattaru said:
Now Cubs may also be saying just think before you post, ok, yeah thats fine, but I'm sure people make posts Cubs may not see as worthwhile....but those people have fought through it.
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This is exactly what I'm saying. And believe me when I say that something has to be either

a) far out there
b) from a repeat offender

for any kind of action to be taken. For the most part, 'action' will probably be a PM saying hey, you're shitting up threads, please read the rules and don't do it anymore. Everyone in this thread moaning gloom and doom and the death of the Flameboard are chicken littles.

Stupid one liners: What makes it stupid? Is it stupid because of poor grammar, is it stupid because it isn't up to your standards of wit? Idk, Cubs does I guess.
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If a one-liner is a good part of the discussion or, at the very least, on topic to the discussion, it will more than likely stay. Being in the middle of, let's say... a flame on Phraust, and the third post is someone saying "Omg, better get some popcorn..." or something like that. It's stupid, it's pointless, it adds nothing to the discussion. Posting something like that is more than likely going to warrant a delete.

I personally love the following disclaimer which basically says "or anything else I can come up with", you know what it reminds me of, my HS conduct code book that gave administrators to define pretty much any offense, which is ridiculous.
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On the same token, I love when people do shit on message boards, chat rooms, etc - and when they're called out on it just say "HA HA IT'S NOT IN THE RULES YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!" I think you're reading between the lines a little too much, Mattaru. Almost nothing in my sticky hasn't been said before by Sculli elsewhere or was simply implied forum behavior.
 
Let me put something out there for you guys - I, honestly, don't want to delete people's posts. I don't really like locking threads. I'm quite happy I have no say in who gets read-only/Permabanned because all that would do is villify me more.

Having to make this kind of decision was never an easy one. I knew right from the start that either decision would not please everyone. Quite a few people (in-game, on this board and others) have basically sworn off this board due to the sharp drop in content and, from mod inaction on the PC+1 brigade, a feeling that the admins and mods simply don't care about the betterment of the forum.

On the other hand, I basically predicted this thread before I started typing the sticky. A lot of the things in that thread were, I thought, unwritten rules. For quite a long time it seemed like people understood and respected that. Times change, and what once seemed like a passing 'lol u maed a funney' turned into threads becoming nothing BUT those comments just recycled and passing back and forth. It was obvious that Sculli's previous post and his feelings about those kind of things wasn't doing much of anything. But I also knew that any kind of post showing that myself, Asia, and Sculli would start keeping a closer eye on the forums and showing a little teeth would snowball into people thinking the entire essence of the Flameboard was disappearing before their very eyes.

All I can say is that I don't want that to happen. I understand your concerns about people being afraid to post. I understand that some people may take this as the mods/admins as terrible people trying to ruin everyone's fun. I think that, in your eyes, being skeptical is probably the best course of action, and if you feel that way, at least allow myself and the others to show you that these changes are only for the better.

We don't want you to leave. We don't want you to think twice about posting something interesting or content-rich. What we DO want is to remove kneejerk posts that take away as much as they add. These are fairly easy to spot. As much as we ask you to put some thought into what you're posting, we will be taking ten times that amount of thought into whether or not what you're posting is in violation.

This thread, for the most part, is building my trust in the Flameboard to work well. Please do your best to keep that trust, and you'll find that nothing's really changed.
 
I also think the whole thing is a work in progress. Right now we have tree threads on the flameboard alone that govern flameboard behavior:
Thread crapping needs to stop!
Derails, Postcount +1s and other shit posts - READ THIS NOW &
Absolutely no self flames!

In addition anything pointed out under Guidelines for Forum Use Within applies as well.

I'll go ahead and at least consolidate the three flameboard thingies into one later on tonight. The wording can be refined, no problem there.

I can understand how some have a tough time with a broad description on what does and does not constitute stupid one-liners or whatever. At the same time it is incredibly difficult to make a rule that is very specific.

I don't believe a specific rule is even necessary. It's the principle that we are talking about. I mean what is the concern? That Cubs, Asia, or I will delete content that is actually good?

I am all for considering potential consequences of rules we come up with, but for every rule there will be an extreme example in which the rule sucks and makes the enforcer of the rule the most evil person alive.

Perhaps we should worry about actual problem cases as they come up instead of trying to imagine every possible scenario ahead of time?
 
Dejavu said:
are there people who actually care about the number of their postcount? I always figured most of the PC+1 peeps just liked to hear themselves talk.
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Apparently, but I don't think anyone would care if the FB didn't count towards postcounts. Even if they do, why should the Admin's care if it is a solution to the problem. I say leave the FB w/out rules and do not let it affect postcount. If someone repeatedly trolls the boards, or posts stupid shit. Delete 'em. As Kat said, we didn't need rules, we only needed fully objective mods.

Peregrine said:
One liners and internet fads are posted by talentless buffoons who don't have the creativity to do anything but pick a sentence and try to ...<ellipses removing 0 content>...in something they're addicted to, I say raise the bar as well. 1-liners, internet fadders, and non-contributive fanboy cheerleeder wannabes need to sit down and shut up.
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I stopped reading this after you continuously belittled people as almost all of your posts seem to do. Honestly, stop being a prick and say something that isn't bashing people. This isn't a flame on stupid noobs. This is policy review.
 
I welcome these changes, and think that some of you are overreacting. Many of you who seem to be upset at this are people who seem to follow this context of:

IS MY POST/REPLY FUNNY, INFORMATIVE, INTERESTING, OR DOES IT CONTRIBUTE TO THE DISCUSSION AT A MEANINGFUL LEVEL?

This doesn't affect anyone really except for that 1% who must be comedy kings on all levels. The quality of the forum is degrading, I rather read flames then see some imagemacro or 2-3 people jerking off about how they will get a thread to 50 pages.
 
So there are 10-20 people you guys are watching for such behavior.
Wouldn't mind seeing that list.
 
CubsWoo said:
This is exactly what I'm saying. And believe me when I say that something has to be either

a) far out there
b) from a repeat offender

for any kind of action to be taken. For the most part, 'action' will probably be a PM saying hey, you're shitting up threads, please read the rules and don't do it anymore. Everyone in this thread moaning gloom and doom and the death of the Flameboard are chicken littles.



If a one-liner is a good part of the discussion or, at the very least, on topic to the discussion, it will more than likely stay. Being in the middle of, let's say... a flame on Phraust, and the third post is someone saying "Omg, better get some popcorn..." or something like that. It's stupid, it's pointless, it adds nothing to the discussion. Posting something like that is more than likely going to warrant a delete.



On the same token, I love when people do shit on message boards, chat rooms, etc - and when they're called out on it just say "HA HA IT'S NOT IN THE RULES YOU CAN'T TOUCH ME!" I think you're reading between the lines a little too much, Mattaru. Almost nothing in my sticky hasn't been said before by Sculli elsewhere or was simply implied forum behavior.
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Let me preface this by saying: I really doubt its the end of the world of the flameboard, I think some of this has already been going on by mods, but now its actually in writing and stickied. I just have a problem with authority in general, I tend to think people in positions of authority don't question themselves enough. That is my bias, at least I recognize it so I probably come across as one of these "chicken littles" only because I'm very critical.

First Paragraph: First off i meant to say thought not fought. I figured thats what you meant, but my main objection had to do with being more more objective about what is worthless. The problem is that you only brought up the ramifications of not thinking before your post until I asked. That should be outlined. Moreover, this is something that I thought was already in practice.

Second Paragraph: Ok, personally, I don't see much harm in get popcorn comments, it may not be constructive discourse so much, its only a comment on the impending drama.....now when WSM randomly says "sneaky is a gay manthra" or something....then yeah.

Third Paragraph: If someone does a shitty thing...and it isn't covered by the rules. Yeah its shitty, but if it isn't outlined you can't punish them for it. Wait til they really do cross the line then bring down the hammer. This is Sculli's totalitarian (minus the negative connotation) message board, he can change the rules whenever he wants, yet I believe Sculli tries to be a fair person, and fairness is based on a set of principles that are mutually agreed on. Otherwise, how can you KNOW how what treatment people deserve when dealing on the fringe (vs. the obvious or well known).

Zero-content: Just tell me is zero-content posts, posts that are straight up random? posts that are stupid? posts that are made by a person who just doesnt get it? Just tell me what it means to be zero-content. For instance if someone made a post that wasn't obviously zero-content how would you decide that it was.
 
Mattaru said:
First Paragraph: First off i meant to say thought not fought. I figured thats what you meant, but my main objection had to do with being more more objective about what is worthless. The problem is that you only brought up the ramifications of not thinking before your post until I asked. That should be outlined. Moreover, this is something that I thought was already in practice.
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Noted. I believe when Sculli or myself consolidates the three current threads about rules/regulations this can be clarified. Thanks for the input.

Second Paragraph: Ok, personally, I don't see much harm in get popcorn comments, it may not be constructive discourse so much, its only a comment on the impending drama.....now when WSM randomly says "sneaky is a gay manthra" or something....then yeah.
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There's no harm in them, sure, but there's also no benefit. They feel like placeholder comments just so people can be in on an impending drama thread without actually having to put thought into what they're posting. If it's a juicy enough thread, we know it's going to explode into dramabomb hilarity. We don't need people stating the obvious.

Third Paragraph: If someone does a shitty thing...and it isn't covered by the rules. Yeah its shitty, but if it isn't outlined you can't punish them for it. Wait til they really do cross the line then bring down the hammer. This is Sculli's totalitarian (minus the negative connotation) message board, he can change the rules whenever he wants, yet I believe Sculli tries to be a fair person, and fairness is based on a set of principles that are mutually agreed on. Otherwise, how can you KNOW how what treatment people deserve when dealing on the fringe (vs. the obvious or well known).
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If this board has been anything towards people who are skating fine lines, it's erring on the side of keeping them here. Quite a few currently permabanned people have had multiple 'last chances' before finally getting the axe. Note that nowhere in the rules does it say you're not allowed to post malicious content (i.e. image links that hold viruses/exploits or things that might break the forum software.) Would you seriously support someone who used the board to do something like hijacking forum/FFXI accounts staying on the forum because it doesn't expressly say that you can't add exploits to your posts to steal accounts? Or before my sticky was up, let's say my girlfriend (who has a FFXI account and a forum account) broke up with me and posted my personal information on this site without my consent? Should she stay because before today it wasn't an official rule?

They're extreme examples and obviously we both know the answers- but saying the final decision is in the mod's hands is moreso a catch-all for things that simply cannot be predicted. It doesn't mean "Piss off Cubs, get banned."

Zero-content: Just tell me is zero-content posts, posts that are straight up random? posts that are stupid? posts that are made by a person who just doesnt get it? Just tell me what it means to be zero-content. For instance if someone made a post that wasn't obviously zero-content how would you decide that it was.
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If someone makes a post that obviously isn't zero-content, nothing will happen to it. There are very easy ways to tell that someone is at least making an effort to post content.

Random? Usually zero-content, especially if they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Stupid? Depends how stupid. If you're trying to be stupid (and not in an ironic way that makes a point about the thread's topic) it's likely zero-content.

Doesn't get it? Likely not zero-content. Someone trying to make a point and failing is still trying, and therefore an attempt at content. Multiple attempts when someone has been told they aren't getting it will probably be treated as zero-content.
 
CubsWoo said:
Everyone in this thread moaning gloom and doom and the death of the Flameboard are chicken littles.
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Sorry, but I must ... I just cannot help myself ...

I'll chicken little your happy ass Cubs^^.

Kay, now that I got that out of my system, I do understand a tad bit more of what you're trying to do. Duly noted and I'll just wait and see how it all unfolds.
 
CubsWoo said:
Stupid? Depends how stupid. If you're trying to be stupid (and not in an ironic way that makes a point about the thread's topic) it's likely zero-content.
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I have 2 things I would like to present/propose.

1.) This involves the quote. There may be instances where it is a pun, that you may not understand Cubswoo... and it will be because of something said in a linkshell you may not have access to. This will be the case when the primary responders to a thread are those involved from the linkshell.

How are you to tell that this is the case? Should we denote this? Is it even right to ask us to do so?

2.) I am guilty of disliking this idea, but instead of people productively complaining, once again guilty, I've seen no alternatives. Sculli is doing what he would like to think is best. Anyone else have any ideas?
 
No offense but there's something that just angers a lot of people. It's not to the extreme exactly but there seems to be a form of absolutism here. You say what's right and wrong and you want this and that done but don't exactly follow the rules yourself from time to time. Sculli said it himself and it has been quoted several times. "Don't like the Flameboard, don't read it, don't post to it, simple as that." You are coming in and saying "I don't like how it is so I'm gonna change it". Why not follow what you said? Don't like the flameboard? don't read it, don't post to it. Simple as that. Just ignore it. I still think you guys are trying to get something serious going here (as in more serious posts and discussions). That's nice and all but this is the flameboard. I never knew a flame had to be serious. (well.. it can be serious in tone and to someone but maybe not to you). There's just something that screams absolutist
 
Sneakypants said:
So there are 10-20 people you guys are watching for such behavior.
Wouldn't mind seeing that list.
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I honestly don't have one. I am guilty of not reading every FB post (in part because many of them do not contain a whole lot of good content), but I have certainly seen users who are testing the limits of how far they can go before they show up on the mods or my radar.

That's fine, there's nothing wrong with testing those limits. What we are trying to do is define the limits a little better so that they can indeed be pointed out to users. Instead of taking corrective action that seems to have no basis because it doesn't follow any established procedure, we can now point and say "hey, get your act together or else".

I will start merging the rule threads in a minute. Let's see where we are at after that.
 
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