Cor Rolls

Legomyeggo said:
Saying X amount of people agree with you is cool and all, but where are the facts? You're telling me Fighter's Roll isn't good, then make me believe it. Give me some numbers, parses, research, charts, pie graphs, apple juice, WHATEVER. Don't expect me to believe you because you play the job only. As far as I know, the entire COR community might not know dick about the job.
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check MH, i sent you some apple juice.
 
Its almost impossible to figure out how much Double attack Fighters can give you because first its a percentage base and second double attack isnt always in effect.

The conclusion that fighter roll is useless with out a war has come from the overall view of cors using it with a war in their pt and seeing how sucky it is.
 
let people play their job. They know what songs/spells/rolls they have, let each person decide. People that ask me what I want them to use make me want to replace them.

Use what has been best in your experience. Experience isn't just a number.
 
Icewolf said:
First of all, your average thf does not have your haste/gear build that you do, im sure you would do alot better than most thf's i see. But it still doesnt change the fact that thieves give the mob much more tp, just to try and keep up with the war or mnk. And you must have the pt's cooperation to do the most damage possible, which isnt always gunna happen.
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Did you read what I wrote at all?
It spoke to all of this, save the TP issue. And that's a separate debate, to which I would only partially agree with you and offer several counterpoints.

WAR and MNK? I keep up with similarly classed WARs and MNKs just fine. lol
 
As a thief:

Good Exp Party:

TA: 250
SA+WS: 600
Melee to 100+ TP: ~20/hit x 20 = ~400
Total Damage per round: 1,250

That's on the low end.

As a thief I outparsed pretty much everything I was put up against save for a few monks and Ridill Wars.

Ironically rarely am I ever outparsed on any of my jobs, and the few times I was, it was most of the time by thieves. A garunteed ~1,200/round is pretty hard to beat out. If your fights take 60 seconds Thieves are pretty much promised a minimum of at least 500 damage on SA & TA alone, and more times than not, they can pull off enough TP in 50 or so seconds to WS(Even without a Ridill).

So when people call you ignorant for your statement, they're pretty sopt on.

And for Lavi's future posts reguarding this one:

Ridill Ridill Ridill!!
 
Alobont said:
Its almost impossible to figure out how much Double attack Fighters can give you because first its a percentage base and second double attack isnt always in effect.

The conclusion that fighter roll is useless with out a war has come from the overall view of cors using it with a war in their pt and seeing how sucky it is.
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Doesn't that make chaos roll useless without a drk? But you used chaos roll.

Or hunters roll without rng? but you used hunters roll.

You seemed to pass up Phraust's post. The faster you get to 100% TP, the more damage you will do.

Chaos doesn't speed you up at all, Hunters might speed you up if you aren't using Acc gear/food which at that level, everyone uses sushi. Fighters will speed you up by giving you more attacks/round.

Admittidly the acc was good, so you switched rolls, to a completely useless roll, where even a minimal boost from fighters would speed the kills up faster.
 
Phraust said:
As a general Rule, in Square Enix's Game: "Final Fantasy XI", anythgin that can alterate the function of Time will give you the most noticeable increase in efficiency.

X% haste = X% more damage & X% closer to Weapon skilling.
Y% Double Attack = (Y x 2) = X% haste

I.E. If you have 5%-8% double attack added to party members, it functions as 10-16 more hits per 100 hits, or 10%-16% Melee Haste, witht he added bonus of Processing on a Weaponskill (5%-8% chance).
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Wouldn't 5%-8% Double attack be 5-8 more hits rather then 10-16 out of 100 hits total? You'd still hit the mob once on the occasion where Double Attacks kicks in, so the roll doesn't give you BOTH hits as a bonus, just the second one.

Also, the maths are assuming every "doubled hits" actually hit and not miss. Not trying to put down your point, just saying it's not 100% accurate.
 
Alobont said:
How did this topic get turned into if thf can dd or not?
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Hey, I already apologized. lol
 
Veresko said:
Wouldn't 5%-8% Double attack be 5-8 more hits rather then 10-16 out of 100 hits total? You'd still hit the mob once on the occasion where Double Attacks kicks in, so the roll doesn't give you BOTH hits as a bonus, just the second one.

Also, the maths are assuming every "doubled hits" actually hit and not miss. Not trying to put down your point, just saying it's not 100% accurate.
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You are correct! I overlooked that.
 
Alobont said:
Its almost impossible to figure out how much Double attack Fighters can give you because first its a percentage base and second double attack isnt always in effect.

The conclusion that fighter roll is useless with out a war has come from the overall view of cors using it with a war in their pt and seeing how sucky it is.
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It shouldn't be that hard. We figured out subbing warrior gives 15% double attack, Brutal Earring gives 5% double attack, Fighter's Calligae gives 1%, and Fighter's Calligae +1 give no Double Attack enhancement at all over the NQ feet. I'd say it would take a few weeks at the least to figure out how much each number roll gives.
 
Phraust said:
You are correct! I overlooked that.
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No problem.

Actually, when I red your exemple again but corrected the Fighter's Roll scenario, really, both scenarios turn out the same damage output bonus, wheter you use Fighter's or Hunter's Roll. This whole debate might be for nothing.

That's of course assuming hte 5%-8% bonus or whatever it is is the same in both rolls. I also just quickly did the math in my head, might be wrong.
 
Yes having more hits does get you faster to 100 tp but, only if it kicks it. I have seen personally 4 double attacks for the entire time I had fighters roll up with a war in my pt with the roll at 11. Double attack wont always kick in and even if it does you still have to connect that second hit.

Using any roll with out the job in the party sucks because you get less than half of what the roll really can do. But Since we didn't need ACC and I was already giving SAM roll for increased TP I decided to give chaos so we could deal a bit more damage.

When did damage not factor in to killing speed??? Double attack is fine but it is pointless with out a war in the pt. The fact that it has to proc, that I need to have a high roll on it for it to even be worth it, and that you have to connect the first hit and the second hit makes it not worth while.
 
Its a big boost to double attack with an 11. Rolling an 11 on any roll doesnt follow the same pattern as rolling up the scale. Look at evokers for easy numbers. Rolling a 10 nets you 3 mp while rolling an 11 nets you 5mp.

The roll of an 11 boosts the effect way more then it would naturally proceed by rolling a higher number.


Also with testing this. You have to factor in that the fact that the effect goes up as you level and changes based on level gap. Also testing each number would take for ever as you would have to roll and roll and roll to find out.
 
Alobont said:
Yes having more hits does get you faster to 100 tp but, only if it kicks it. I have seen personally 4 double attacks for the entire time I had fighters roll up with a war in my pt with the roll at 11. Double attack wont always kick in and even if it does you still have to connect that second hit.

Using any roll with out the job in the party sucks because you get less than half of what the roll really can do. But Since we didn't need ACC and I was already giving SAM roll for increased TP I decided to give chaos so we could deal a bit more damage.

When did damage not factor in to killing speed??? Double attack is fine but it is pointless with out a war in the pt. The fact that it has to proc, that I need to have a high roll on it for it to even be worth it, and that you have to connect the first hit and the second hit makes it not worth while.
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As I understood it, for the most part having the corosponding job in the party only adds a 25% bonus onto what would normally be done. Conversly, NOT having said job would only be a 20% hit on effectiveness. (4+1 = 5 (25% increase) 5-1 = 4 (20% decrease))

If I remember correctly, Dark caps at 18% Attack, with a Dark in the group, and 14% Without. I assume the other Rolls are the same. Like I said the numbers I chose are kinda low-end.

My take on Corsair in general:

If you need Hunter's Roll, you probably need to move Camps.
 
That's why I'm saying "assuming" the bonus is the same. I understand the whole mechanics of Cor rolls. But for the sake of everyone's sanity, in order to compare maths and tests, there needs to be some constants, like say the roll result.

What I'm saying, looking at Phraust's maths (which are pretty accurate other then the Double Attack bonus), is IF we assume that both rolls would have the same result, say lucky number, doesn't matter if it's a different number. Or say 11. Also, let's assume that neither jobs are in the party. Now if BOTH bonus are the same, say 10%, then 10% DA = 10% more accuracy.

What that tells you is if you have a choice between Hunter or Fighter rolls and neither job is in your party (like in your case), then both BONUS will be the same, 10% more damage out of 100 hits. Hence my comment on how this might all be a useless debate, if both bonus are the same.

And yes I am aware that your rolls results will influence but that's besides the point. If you party for 5 hours straight, doing one or the other will give you about the same result. The difference, if any, will not be from your choice of rolls but from the luck/bad luck of your rolls.

Edit: Was answering to Alobont's post.
 
The difference here is the added benefit to Weapon skills. Having 20% Accuracy lets say, won't have the same effect as a 20% chance at doing 2x the damage.

[note another error in past math: the 5%-8% increase on accuracy is on the preexisting 80%, not over all]

If you had 5 rampages where each hiit on the rampage is 100 damage at 80% accuracy:

500
500
500
500
500
= 2,500 x 80% accuracy = 2,000

add 20% accuracy: 2,400.
add 20% chance at doing 2x damage: 2,800.

Its stuff like that you gotta take into consideration.

Side note: Evokers: 1, 2, 3, 4 on 11, with SMN in pt, is 2, 3, 4, 5 on 11.
 
Phraust said:
As a general Rule, in Square Enix's Game: "Final Fantasy XI", anythgin that can alterate the function of Time will give you the most noticeable increase in efficiency.

X% haste = X% more damage & X% closer to Weapon skilling.
Y% Double Attack = (Y x 2) = X% haste

I.E. If you have 5%-8% double attack added to party members, it functions as 5-8 aditional hits per 100 hits, or 5%-8% Melee Haste, with the added bonus of Processing on a Weaponskill (5%-8% chance).

Hunter's roll: if you had 5%-8% Accuracy on the top of your melee, and you were already at 80% accuracy, you would only get a 5%-8% increase in damage max per 100 hits.

Rogue's Roll: if you had an additional 5%-8% chance at doing 50%-100% more damage a swing you's be adding 2.5%-16% more damage per 100 Hits, with the added 5%-8% chance of critting a weapon skill.

Combining Fighter's Roll & Rogue's Roll:

Per 100 swings @ 80% Accuracy: you get 85-88 swings (+DA on WS)

thats:

9% - 22% increase in damage, when you include Rogue's Roll. (+DA & Crit on WS)

Hunter's Roll & Chaos Roll:

Per 100 swings @80% Accuracy: you get 84-86 more swings

Thats:

9% - 14% increase in damage, when you factor in Chaos roll.

Now keeping in mind the percents I was giving are grossly understated, you can see the merit in having Fighter's/Rogue's.

MATH R TEH FUNZ0RZ!!!

In the settup proposed:

Samurai Roll / Hunter's Roll:

84-86 % Accuracy @ 8 - 18 Store TP

you still would have benefitted more from Fighter's over Hunters:

85 - 88 hits @ 80% accuracy @ 8 - 18 Store TP.

War, War, Thf, Cor, Brd, Whm:

Fighter's/Rogues & March/Minuet for Melee, Healers/Evoker's & Ballad/Ballad for WHM is about as good a pt settup as you can get.

10% Base DA + 8-18% more, and an added 8-18% Crit rate on top of that...
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Fixed all the math.
 
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