Cross Counters

[ForteTeppo]

Are these things truly worth it? I have a friend i'm helping out and these seem in reach, but are they worth it or can I get something else or better?

 

[Bajaratt]

Nothing's better until destroyers.

 

[Lavi]

Try camping RE/EX version if they don't mind taking the effort. Since there is no money in camping it anymore, there really is no competition. My friend who doesn't get a whole lot of play time spent a bit of his time there with very little competition and would have gotten it almost immediately if the NM had not been so stingy.

 

[Kelyon]

Get the free version like Lavi said. Just don't get the Spartan ones please. They really are not that good. CC will last till Destroyers

 

[revrandlord]

T.M. Hooks +2 also come close to CC and are a lot cheaper 200-300k Last I looked.

They have lower dmg and no counter+5 but have less deley and atk+10

 

[Excalibur]

Baja already said it. Once you hit 50 there is nothing better until destroyers, hands down. And even when you get destroyers, I still wouldn't ever sell a pair of CC, that counter is amazing, especially when you're soloing. So I'd also recomend camping the NM if you have a high enough lvl job.

 

[ds083roadkill]

Baja already said it. Once you hit 50 there is nothing better until destroyers, hands down. And even when you get destroyers, I still wouldn't ever sell a pair of CC, that counter is amazing, especially when you're soloing. So I'd also recomend camping the NM if you have a high enough lvl job.

i think hades santi out-preform cc's for solo work

 

[Bajaratt]

i think hades santi out-preform cc's for solo work

I'd take +%5 counter rate over 7 evasion anyday.

 

[ds083roadkill]

I'd take +%5 counter rate over 7 evasion anyday.

17 evasion accually. you forget the -10 on CC themselfs.

a 45 delay differance, 4 more acc and subtle blow. the emnity helps when you low man. not to mention 200k cheaper. for most "solo" work, your going to evade/lose shadows more then you counter. in a party situation thier fantastic pre-utsusemi:Ni

 

[Bajaratt]

17 evasion accually. you forget the -10 on CC themselfs.

a 45 delay differance, 4 more acc and subtle blow. the emnity helps when you low man. not to mention 200k cheaper. for most "solo" work, your going to evade/lose shadows more then you counter. in a party situation thier fantastic pre-utsusemi:Ni

Low-manning is different, there the enmity would definitely help, but for solo work, which is what we were talking about, it's useless.

Even with the -17 evasion on CC's over Hades, I'd still take that 5% chance to counter, easily. Above 60, evasion's almost useless unless you're a lot higher level than what you're fighting. Even then, I'd prefer counter with all of the counter+ gear you can throw on when shadows are down, not to mention counter stance. Yeah, it doesn't effect weapon skills, but I'd never count on evading those anyways unless I'm fighting something too weak.

The subtle blow's a a much more swaying factor to me for solo work than 17 evasion.

Hades Sainti aren't bad, but I'd personally prefer the counter of CC's for soloing. In a party, I wouldn't want the big enmity on them, even wearing a lot of -enmity, you can end up tanking quite a bit on monk; I wouldn't want to make it more.

 

[ds083roadkill]

Even with the -17 evasion on CC's over Hades, I'd still take that 5% chance to counter, easily. Above 60, evasion's almost useless unless you're a lot higher level than what you're fighting. Even then, I'd prefer counter with all of the counter+ gear you can throw on when shadows are down, not to mention counter stance. Yeah, it doesn't effect weapon skills, but I'd never count on evading those anyways unless I'm fighting something too weak.

gunna have to disagree here. perfect example would be trying to solo sparoti warriors in krt. damn near immpossible to solo without HF and your standard tp gear. your shadows are taken of to fast without being able to evade hits, cc stacked with bando kote would be horrific. stacking eva (torque, ohat, scouter's, boxer's, etheral, hakke habaki, ect) with hades ive been able to get chain 3. not to mention counter being influenced by acc.

 

[Bajaratt]

gunna have to disagree here. perfect example would be trying to solo sparoti warriors in krt. damn near immpossible to solo without HF and your standard tp gear. your shadows are taken of to fast without being able to evade hits, cc stacked with bando kote would be horrific. stacking eva (torque, ohat, scouter's, boxer's, etheral, hakke habaki, ect) with hades ive been able to get chain 3. not to mention counter being influenced by acc.

A 4 accuracy difference isn't going to be a noticeable difference in your counter rate. It's no where near the difference that +5 counter on CC's would give you.

You can evade hits, but at the same time you're countering a lot less often. If you countered more, you'd kill faster, since you'd be doing damage while not taking any yourself; and the results are much more visible than throwing on extra evasion. You're doing an immense decrease in your damage, just so you can outlast the mob. I'm assuming/hoping that you're at least macroing in haste gear for utsusemi. Different builds for different situations, definitely, but in general, I'd easily take CC's over Hades for soloing.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that you're wrong going with Hades, only I'd MUCH rather have CC's over Hades. With my playstyle, I much prefer counter over evasion because I don't see nearly the same returns using evasion gear. I've used +24 evasion skill and another +40 evasion in gear, only to never evade a single hit; while I've counter-tanked whole fights without ever being hit either. They're both extremes, but the never dodging in full evasion gear happens far more frequently.

 

[Caerloc]

What happened to the subtle blow you swore so by in the last thread? In a solo situation that stuff is actually usefull even.

+7 (+9) Subtle blow and eva > +5 counter in my book atleast. If we are talking in a solo situation atleast. I wouldnt actually sacrifice anything to get subtle blow or eva in a merit situation. Offcourse i constantly find myself evading most things T or lower. Not evading every hit, but enough to get by. VT and IT miss to, just not as much.

My tp-setup has like +38 evasion and i have maxed evasion merits, so i guess that helps. My setup also gives me +24 subtle blow, wich together with traits is pretty close to cap.
My solo-setup is the exact same as my merit-setup, i love not having to gearswap so much.

 

[pchan]

CC > hades is delay - 45 (396 > 351) which the same gain as Black Belt (delay -12%) .. Obviously Hades Sainti is better.

 

[Excalibur]

Why do people constantly underestimate the power of a monk's counter ability?

Counter+5 on one single slot is worth far more than any evasion gear will ever do for you as a monk. I've never heard of these Hades hth but from what you all are saying it sounds like I'd still take CC over HS. Evasion is fuckin worthless. If anything, it prohibits a monk's counter from being used to it's fullest potential. If you're evading, you're not countering.

 

[Langly]

It stands to reason that a situation where your Counter % would trump your Evasion %, the Counter + would increase your survivability more. Have to see them both as an avoided hit, so after all counter bonuses and gear, would you counter at least 70-80% of the time? I don't know if I could get 70-80% evasion rate on my MNK if dodge wasn't up.

But then again I've never tried. I think I actually feel safer using Counter than evasion. If I want to evade something I just get on NIN.

(I don't own Hades Sainti nor have I ever used them, but I really do love using counterstance so consider my bias.)

 

[ds083roadkill]

Why do people constantly underestimate the power of a monk's counter ability?

Counter+5 on one single slot is worth far more than any evasion gear will ever do for you as a monk. I've never heard of these Hades hth but from what you all are saying it sounds like I'd still take CC over HS. Evasion is fuckin worthless. If anything, it prohibits a monk's counter from being used to it's fullest potential. If you're evading, you're not countering.

ppl making it sound like when you use hades you dont used counterstance. evasion is checked first, then utsusemi, then counter, and finnally guard. why depend on your third line of defense when only useing a far inferior weapon to counter 1/20th of a hit. not to mention while your not evading/losing shadows, you run the risk of getting hit for 180-200 dmg. no subtle blow, successful counters, and non-countered hits all feed the monster unwanted tp = dead mnk.

this is all for "solo work." if i was tanking something (a.k.a. salvage) i would use mroe dd gear, more haste and more counter.

input /equip Body "Scp. Harness +1"
input /equip Head "Optical Hat'
input /equip Hands "Denali Wristbands" need to grab ratetsu+1
input /equip Waist "Scouter's Rope"
input /equip Legs "Temple Hose +1"
input /equip Neck "Evasion Torque"
input /equip Back "Boxer's Mantle"
input /equip Ear1 "Diabolos's Earring"
input /equip Ear2 "Ethereal earring"
input /equip Ring1 "Blood Ring"
input /equip Feet "Hakke Habaki"
input /equip Ring2 "Ulthalam's ring"

my eva macro, minus the spaces

 

[pchan]

Evasion is fuckin worthless. If anything, it prohibits a monk's counter from being used to it's fullest potential. If you're evading, you're not countering.

I seriously hope you never go mnk/nin, cos you don't counter with utsusemi on.

Counter is awesome but cross counter is weak weapon for mnk due to its high delay, hence why noone use them and every one usues Hades Sainti (accuracy mainly) or Destroyers (crit up).

When i solo i don't use either Hades Sainti or CC, I use destroyers because it's obviously the best damage output.

 

[Excalibur]

I seriously hope you never go mnk/nin, cos you don't counter with utsusemi on.

When i solo i don't use either Hades Sainti or CC, I use destroyers because it's obviously the best damage output.

There's a big difference between evasion which ups your chance to maybe evade every once in a great while and utsusemi which absorbs every single regular attack. It's the difference between a maybe and a sure thing, that's why evasion is worthless.
Also, damagae isn't everything when solo'ing. I'll sacrifice some damage for more survivability.

 

[Bajaratt]

ppl making it sound like when you use hades you dont used counterstance. evasion is checked first, then utsusemi, then counter, and finnally guard. why depend on your third line of defense when only useing a far inferior weapon to counter 1/20th of a hit. not to mention while your not evading/losing shadows, you run the risk of getting hit for 180-200 dmg. no subtle blow, successful counters, and non-countered hits all feed the monster unwanted tp = dead mnk.

this is all for "solo work." if i was tanking something (a.k.a. salvage) i would use mroe dd gear, more haste and more counter.

input /equip Body "Scp. Harness +1"
input /equip Head "Optical Hat'
input /equip Hands "Denali Wristbands" need to grab ratetsu+1
input /equip Waist "Scouter's Rope"
input /equip Legs "Temple Hose +1"
input /equip Neck "Evasion Torque"
input /equip Back "Boxer's Mantle"
input /equip Ear1 "Diabolos's Earring"
input /equip Ear2 "Ethereal earring"
input /equip Ring1 "Blood Ring"
input /equip Feet "Hakke Habaki"
input /equip Ring2 "Ulthalam's ring"

my eva macro, minus the spaces

You ARE at least macroing in haste gear for utsusemi, right? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, since I know you're not an idiot, but you haven't said one way or the other if you actually were.

Also, CC's are not a "far inferior" weapon; Yes, they're "weaker" than Hades; but not some gigantic amount like you're making them out to be.