DKP system

Thanks to the power of stupidity, merit systems are soon becoming a memory in WoW. Usual scenario, someone gets powerlevled with gear, that person leaves the guild for a better guild citing usual tripe excuses... or quits the game because they are sick of the guilt trips: "Dude we got you this awesome gear you need to be online more often and help out...blah blah"
 
It seriously pisses me off when a ranger who was gone for a months wants an osode over a warrior who farmed his ass off for 8 months straight without goin anywhere.Just an example.And this is great cuz then ppl dun think sending /tell to leaders would make em skip the farmings or something.And also it limits to how much someone can gain items unless he earns them.
 
Sculli said:
In a merit system, the guild recognizes the need to have a warrior to break 10,000 hit points. The guilds goal is to kill this one boss mob, kill him over and over to get good loot. In order to kill the boss they need a 10,000 hit point warrior, and three awesome clerics. The guild does everything they can to gear those four people up as quickly as possible, and they spends weeks and months killing the boss the DKP guild can only dream about at that point.
Click to expand...

This is the best part and worst part of the merit system. The good is that the players who's job you actually let participate and have any fun in endgame get all their best loot, and have fun getting it. The bad is that those players whose jobs you don't deem important enough to make the group stronger not only don't get much participation, but they're also guaranteed lowest priority on any gear they might be looking forward to. In a game where the best strategy tends to be exploiting a few powerful jobs in bulk, the merit system would most likely make endgame even worse for those who don't get to enjoy it as is. Those who have fun would have even more fun, and those who don't would have even less.
 
I don't believe that is true.
It certainly *could* be that way if the guild leadership lets that happen.
I have only been in one merit based guild, and that was one I ran (<Dark Virtue> on Tribunal in EQ). Dark Virtue was hands down the best equipped guild within its tier on the server. Mobs drop gear for all classes, regardless which classes are needed to kill the mobs.

Just because a few key classes were needed to be sucessful vs a certain mob doesn't mean the guild was made up just of those classes. Recruitment kept close tabs on making sure we didn't have too many players of a certain class to not dillute the loot pool.

I am not sure how to explain it, I could write a book on it, honestly.
Merit systems can be abused, more easily so than DKP systems. That wasn't the case in Dark Virtue, we would often even give loot to guests on the raid simply because our members had better gear already, and we didn't allow twinks.

It was a matter of pride too, it was simply unacceptable to have someone wear the <Dark Virtue> guild tag, and that player be underequipped. It was a small guild, 53 members total, 40+ online every single night. We would raid 6 days a week, and usually would do an open raid on the 7th day. Life was good.

However, to this day there are endgame guilds in EQ that function on merit systems. Not many, granted, but there are some that did end-game content earlier than everyone else, and those are merit based guilds.

A merit based guild implies that guild members care about other guild members. I want the next guy to have good loot, because I want him or her to be there when he or she is needed. I want the player to be there when it is 4am and he or she has to go to work at 7am but we are still working on a strat on how to actually kill the mobs. I want that player to say "No, thanks for the offer though." when approached by a recruiter of a different guild.

Satisfaction builds loyalty, and loyalty is one of the very few true measurements one can size up toons in an MMO by.

On the fairness side: DKP is fair to most players most of the time, and that's good enough most of the time. ;)
 
The DKP system is the only fair way to reward players. It never fails to be fair. Especially nowdays with the systems that log it for you. Usually the people who complain about not liking it are the ones who freeload a lot or are not consistent/dedicated enough to guild activities.
 
Strid said:
The DKP system is the only fair way to reward players. It never fails to be fair. Especially nowdays with the systems that log it for you. Usually the people who complain about not liking it are the ones who freeload a lot or are not consistent/dedicated enough to guild activities.
Click to expand...

A modified one, yes. A straight up, time spent there = reward, isn't exactly fair. You do have to compensate for the amount of work spent during that time. Pullers and Tanks have to make up lost exp after the day is done. Are you saying they should be rewarded just the same as the person that is there, but goes AFK frequently?
 
Should a player get more compensation for performing their job role than others? I don't think so. I don't think a Ranger or Ninja should get gil compensation. I don't think tanks and pullers should get compensation for lost exp. When you choose your job, you take on all of the pros and cons associated with it. If one decided to be a Paladin, but knows that death isn't something s/he's willing to accept, moghouse>jobchange>White Mage is easy enough to do. Straight up time=reward is as fair as it gets.
 
I guess thats where I disagree, I suppose. Equal Work, Equal Pay. Pullers and Tanks have to put in more than most other members, so they should be rewarded justly.
 
Pompidou said:
Straight up time=reward is as fair as it gets.
Click to expand...
That's why communism didn't work out. Just being present is simply not enough.

Fair is where effort=reward.
 
Some jobs are harder than others. Should a Rdm who has to keep track of a dozen spells wearing and recasting get more reward than the autoattack till weaponskill melee? For that matter, all mages should be overly rewarded, because of all the buttons we have to press during a battle. There's no autoattack for spells. Bards have to do this, and they have to gauge distance.

I'm going to comment out of ignorance on pullers and tanks at endgame. The argument is that they deserve more because they die more. In many cases, when the tank dies (in exp party scenarios), he's not the only one. The mob typically gets to take down the second player on the hate list, be that a healer, the blm or maybe the ranger before the mob is taken down. Should these jobs that typically take a fall right after the tank get more compensation than the hate free jobs with the best odds of survival? I know my usual goal is to be #2 on the mob's hate list, and if my tank dies, I'm a one-two hit kill.

It sounds good to reward people proportionally to the amount of work their job entails, but it's harder in practice. Where to draw the line is a hard decision to really back up with any justification.
 
Last edited:
Pompidou said:
It sounds good to reward people proportionally to the amount of work their job entails, but it's harder in practice. Where to draw the line is a hard decision to really back up with any justification.
Click to expand...
Yup, which is why DKP systems work, but they are not entirely fair.
DKP systems are a great and easy way to distribute loot, I would think the majority of raiding guilds uses some sort of point system.

The DKP guilds I have been in all had different systems to accumulate and spend points. None was what I would consider great, but all were acceptable to me. Asking how the loot is distributed before one joins a raiding guild or linkshell is probably one of the most important questions one can ask, even if that makes you look like a loot whore.
 
Sculli said:
That's why communism didn't work out.
Click to expand...

It's still alive and well in some places.

I think Pomp pretty much summed up my reply for you Skaw. I couldn't have said it better myself. You know what you're getting into before you assume the role or enter into the activity that warrants DKP or other point based raids/camps. People who afk often are docked if the guild/group DKP filer is doing the job right. Everytime someone afks their time afked is suppsoed to go monitored and the frequency as well. After you post the shots and calculate the points the person in charge goes back and "fines" those were marked afk or gone or anything of the sort. Also, this is about the DKP system you refer to "loosing exp" some. Mind you, not all games have an exp penalty for death. However, they all have some sort of penalty. Penalties are known like the job role going into one of these events. Most structurally accurate orginizations have ways of taking care of these penalties for all players in their own way. It's often in form of game currency to compensate for armor repair or other losses. The reason most guilds/groups keep a bank. It could be implied the same to EXP loss if the orginization leader wanted to make a plan. Giving people extra points in the DKP system would throw it unbalanced and produce avoidable loop holes to gain extra points as it's soley a time earned point system with points per successfully achieved goals. For example, a PLD walks into Sky and is a few points behind another person wanting an item. He could die a few times in which he would have survived all because he knew he'd be awarded for his deaths and could make them look totally accidental and understandable. It's been proved through its lengthy existence it is the best and most fair form of a rewards system.

If you are a casual player this system is easily harsh to you but it's still fair. Over time you will collect your loot. Like my Grandma always told me growing up, "You get out of things what you put into them son." That's the beauty of this system when ran correctly, it enforces this age old saying.

There are two exceptions to the rules however and both are usually very well known or clearly stated before a person is admitted into a guild. Exception number one is the gearing of the guilds main tank. If the main tank is "geared out" you can, obviously, have better encounters fighting tough things and go fartehr faster in the end getting more loot faster. So the main tank gets all his goodies, limited to items enhancing his tanking only, first. Second exception is main healer. Like the main tank they get geared up first. They are often the ones with the capability of keeping up with the main tanks whooping. If the main tank goes down in most encounters so does the rest of the group. This person is equally important as the main tank and imo often more important. Usually no one minds this as they greatly enhance the raids. I didn't like these two things at first but when my new guilds MT and MH got geared up I realized how important it was they go first. We did so much better and things that were very tough in the beginning seemed laughingly mindless at times.
 
Last edited:
Strid said:
It's still alive and well in some places.
Click to expand...

Where?

A rigid points system provides the fairest returns for the individual, but slows the development of the LS.

A pure need before greed system allows the linkshell to advance the fastest, but leaves certain individuals (certain jobs) unrewarded.

So you need to combine the 2. Points for members to give a reward for effort, combined with some prioritsing of items so that the needs of the linkshell are also taken into account.
 
You don't get the point.Communism and DKP are totally different.In DKP system you have all the oppertunities to go further and beyond the assignment n hence would be rewarded, which communism doesn't.And its always fair since it takes in account the time spent farming and bosses being killed.And then in the end the points are posted on a website with standings on them.Hence this way there would be no bullshit about ppl showing up once a week and getting items just becuz they cyber with the sack holders.
It is however taken in account that some items are best for some jobs to have (For the guild to be at its best in a whole).That way the koeing stuff would go to the plds first depending on who has how many points n such but if a pld doesn't really farm n doesn't have points well... a war can spend his points on it.

My cousin on Titan Server has a guild that uses this system are they are like one of the best on the server.With about 88 members they have no problems whats so ever.

And no a fair system doesn't slow the progress of a LS.It only gets rid of the slackers leeching stuff from ls that never show up anyway... so they might as well just leave.When dedicated ppl have items ofcouse they are working harder n have a better presence so they contribute to the ls more.Need before greed is in dkp also but that doesn't mean a nin or rng gets ose before war who farmed for 8 months straight.The person who works the harder should be given his fair share.
 
Last edited:
Blowy said:
Where?

A rigid points system provides the fairest returns for the individual, but slows the development of the LS.

A pure need before greed system allows the linkshell to advance the fastest, but leaves certain individuals (certain jobs) unrewarded.

So you need to combine the 2. Points for members to give a reward for effort, combined with some prioritsing of items so that the needs of the linkshell are also taken into account.
Click to expand...

China for one. You possibly could try and make it sound like it is not but in the end it is. It's just a bit more "nicer" than most past communistic reigns which give the form of government a bad name. Who can blame them though? This is off-topic if you'd like to further this part then do so else where.


wolfskymoon said:
And then in the end the points are posted on a website with standings on them.Hence this way there would be no bullshit about ppl showing up once a week and getting items just becuz they cyber with the sack holders.
Click to expand...

Outterheaven anyone?


Need before greed is in DKP. In this system everyone who is of the level of the item is eligable and does need the item. The classes that get it first however are pre decided amoung the usefullness of the item paired with the class. Greed is a term used to pass an item off to someone who it doesn't benifit as much or is just going to be sold because everyone that needs it already has it or an item of "show". Need before greed is always in most peoples systems. The best example I can think of off hand is the DRK in whatever LS it was that got Crimson Gauntlets over the RDM's or anyone else who could have put them to better use. That's what you get in a "need before greed" only situation. A RDM having them would have benifit the guild much better than a DRK having them. So that blows advancing anything faster...giving those items to a marked to wear class that don't really need them. Give those items to those classes after the "needers" have them. In DKP you can go negative to an extent. Each form of DKP has its own set rules on that. So if a DRK has 10 pt's the RDM has 5 and the gloves are 12 points the RDM would still get them over the saying "need before greed". In most cases DKP IS a need before greed system with points which leads me to believe you have never been in an orgination using this system. Like previously stated by me earlier in the thread life, there are only two kinds of people who don't like the DKP system. Those who have never been in it and only heard of it and those who have been in it but aren't dedicated enough to put the time in to achieve their wants in game (casual gamers).

To re-cap DKP is a rewards system build off need before greed first and a points system second. Points are determined by your accomplishments in the previous announced event and your time involved.
 
Last edited:
Strid said:
China for one. You possibly could try and make it sound like it is not but in the end it is. It's just a bit more "nicer" than most past communistic reigns which give the form of government a bad name. Who can blame them though? This is off-topic if you'd like to further this part then do so else where.
Click to expand...
ROFL
China is not communist, China is not socialst either. Look up what either of those things mean by definition.

There is private enterprise in China, which is not possible in communism, and marginally possible in socialism. Communism is a class-less society of equals. I think it's needless to say that not everyone in China is equal to the next guy. The list goes on and on.

If I were to say what China is, I'd say that it is a dictatorship based on some capitalist and some socialist principles.
 
Sculli said:
ROFL
China is not communist, China is not socialst either. Look up what either of those things mean by definition.

There is private enterprise in China, which is not possible in communism, and marginally possible in socialism. Communism is a class-less society of equals. I think it's needless to say that not everyone in China is equal to the next guy. The list goes on and on.

If I were to say what China is, I'd say that it is a dictatorship based on some capitalist and some socialist principles.
Click to expand...

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/world/A0857294.html
http://www.cecc.gov/pages/virtualAcad/gov/index.php

:) Also, pick up a Newsweek about 2 months old.
 
Look if you wanna talk about communism start a new thread!! a game is totally different from real life.So yes back to DKP... i really think this is a very great option to make things fair for people.Every ls should have it or adobt it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top