DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO

[Elemmire]

I just haste tank and leave the rest to RDM usually...

that's right.. expect the RDM to do everything T.T

 

[Rinoah]

that's right.. expect the RDM to do everything T.T

Dont worry i will. I let the RDM main heal as well. :twisted:

Besides...i generally have both RNG and BLM in party...that only leave one other person who needs haste.

 

[Jagster]

[/quote]My philosophy is that I wait for a player to forget to do something before I ask them to do it. If I was in a pickup party and the leader said: "Now Pomp, I want you to sleep any adds", I would have an equally demeaning request of whatever the leader's job was. When I go to the grocery store, I don't tell the cashier: "I'd like my change, please" unless the person forgets to give it to me. I assume s/he knows the job. I treat FFXI the same way. It's hard to phrase a request for basic job functions without insulting a player's intelligence.

As to the specific issue. The initial request for haste wasn't wrong, but I can understand why it would cause a defensive response. The request for haste after two battles without it was very justified. The abandoning of the pt on the part of the Whm was unexcusable.
_________________

I agree.

There is certain things one should clearly point out before the party gets to the camp.

SC,MB, How to use a SMN, what songs, etc. But claiming to remember to cast haste is like telling them to make sure they cast Cures, I hate when people assume I can't do my job, and I'm sure mielle and the original poster is no different.

"Hey make sure you start on Ni, and than switch back and forth"

Don't know about you but I'd be offended, that example is clearly what the haste request was like. Gee, thanks for reminding me to do that, can you remind me how to auto attack as well?

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to both sides though.

If those say BJ is a good player and knows his stuff, I believe it. I've seen his name as a high level on more than one job, so it's probably true.

I also know mielle is a nice person if you treat her like a human and not a machine. Good whm and person but, you guessed it, bad with directions

Moral of the story is don't assume someone is a moron. I use to be the same way, I'd assume people didn't know how to play their jobs and would bark orders and suggestions before seeing them in action. Many months sense I've tended to not judge a book by its cover and make decisions and suggestions if needed at least a battle or few in. Unless of course, someone straight up asks how something should be done.

 

[Mishaela]

How can a WHM not know how to handle haste/sneak/invis in a party post-50? I mean....just...wow.

Yes, getting asked for a haste can be a pain in the butt (especially if it's, say, a NIN/RNG/RNG/THF/WHM/BLM party and all 4 constantly want Haste and start sayuing crap because Haste-ing 2 in one fight then 2 in the next "isn't good enough" :roll: ) but nomatter how many people are in the party, the tank (especially if NIN) should never, ever, ever not-have Haste unless the enemy pulls off a Dispel/Dispelga/Web attack.

Skimming over posts, I'm seeing a few people defending her..all I can really say is, if you're in a bad mood, fair enough. But you don't just go and bail on parties and crap because you "don't feel like being bossed around". Yes we all have bad days but taking it out on others makes you...what's the word...oh, a bitch. If the suggestion's good (hell, even if it seems NOT good), I'll give it a shot. If it's not good, then go back to the old method, and if it IS good, then wow, better tactic learned. If you wanna play pissy-whiny-temper-tantrumy "don't tell me what to do", do the world a favor, stop making your job look bad, and go play Pokemon.

 

[Darkdante]

Dang DarkDante. Do you enter threads with the sole purpose of disagreement? Bj has a very valid point, yet all you want to do is disagree with him without supporting your stance. You even misquote the point of his thread midway way through. Noobs make mistakes, but then refuse to listen to suggestions to fix them and ditch the partys instead. Bj is upset about this, yet you want to blame him?! You use to be able to raise some pretty valid arguments and discussions, but this is pathetic.

What was my whole point? Why did he even bother to flame for something like this? I believe I stated that pretty clearly, his main topic was NOT that she ditched him. Go back and read for yourself. He was MAD that she didn't take as he put it "suggestion", what is the definition of suggestion Rones? Is it something you shove down somebodys throat that they MUST swallow? Come'on man even you can see how words are being minced here. If you wanna be bossy just come out and say it so we have a clear picture of you. Don't bring this juiced up version that you want us to see, so we feel sorry for you.

I'm just brining it up because this is why problems like this don't get solved and turn into one big mess. Amusing I know but pretty sickening when you think these people are trying to solve problems.

And yes I posted because I too have been in this situation and you know what? If somebody told me "and don't give me all of that crap" I'd get pissed to and so would MOST of all of you. I'm not mild mannered everyday and I don't think I should be treated as such either. Would I have warped out after that? Maybe... depends on my mood.

BTW: most are here SOLELY because he is a popular player, sure I know he's your friend, but are you here for any other reason?

And for anybody who thinks I"m comin off as harsh here, blame Rones
Hey its only my "suggestion".

 

[Pompidou]

Skimming over posts, I'm seeing a few people defending her..all I can really say is, if you're in a bad mood, fair enough. But you don't just go and bail on parties and crap because you "don't feel like being bossed around". Yes we all have bad days but taking it out on others makes you...what's the word...oh, a bitch. If the suggestion's good (hell, even if it seems NOT good), I'll give it a shot. If it's not good, then go back to the old method, and if it IS good, then wow, better tactic learned. If you wanna play pissy-whiny-temper-tantrumy "don't tell me what to do", do the world a favor, stop making your job look bad, and go play Pokemon.

I think everyone should appreciate good advice. I agree with everything you said, albeit with a small addition. "insultingly basic advice" =/= "good advice". For example, in one party where we were bursting freeze and I was dying from hate, the paladin recommended standing behind him for the burst so that he could use cover. It was good advice. It didn't insult my intelligence, and it saved my life a dozen times since. I was in another party once, and before we even got started, was "advised" to cast enfeebles and heal in emergencies when I'm not nuking. I was pretty irritated. After all, I didn't tell him how to hit autoattack and eat a sandwich AFK, so I didn't need to be told how to do mine. Good advice and insultingly basic advice aren't the same.

 

[Vilurum]

I treat in-game friends the way I treat RL friends. However, I also treat in-game strangers the way I treat RL strangers. Hate to say this, but that pickup party full of people that you've never partied with or spoken to before, and might not even have seen around Jeuno? They're strangers. Treat them as such until you get to know them over the course of perhaps a few days of consistently winding up in the same exp parties since you're all in the same level range levelling at the same pace.

If one of my friends had quite provably warped and abandoned a party, regardless of justification (or seeming lack thereof) you can bet that as a friend, my reaction would be a tough-love extended chewing out of them for doing something so damn foolish. Though not on a public forum, but in person in the game without belittling them in front of an audience. I'd do the same for provably being an ass about "suggestions" or "orders" (the distinction is semantic) given in a party.

As for the public forum? I would defend how my friend usually behaves toward others, but also comment that I happen to disagree with abandoning your party in principle (as I think I've made quite clear) and I'll talk to my friend about that. Not go into the great judgmental long commentary as I've been doing here, but yes I would mention that what they did was wrong and I'll talk to them about it.

You're defending your friend. I approve of that. But you can't defend your friend's *actions*, when they're simply wrong. Especially as a friend, it's your responsibility to help your friends not *do* things like that.

You may believe in them as a person, you may like them, and you may support them, and that's *fine*. That's *good*. But you can't simply turn a blind eye to their more serious misdeeds. You can support your friends while agreeing that their actions are not to be condoned, and possibly personally saying something to the tune of "I'll talk to her about it and make sure she doesn't do something like that again."

Just because someone's your friend doesn't mean you have to endorse all their actions.

-----------------------------(separate subject here and I dun wanna make two posts)----------------------------

Btw, not all suggestions are bad, and sometimes you can suggest something to an experienced player that even the experienced player hadn't thought of.

Example from my own history, my first exp party after sushi was added. Needless to say, melees everywhere had been going nuts over this, but as a BRD I hadn't paid the slightest attention to that. So there I went, Madrigal Minuet Prelude, and they all started telling me to skip the accuracy stuff and give the lot of them double Minuet.

Now, I'd seen from previous experience (but remember this is talking about pre-sushi) that if I actually tried this, it turned into a whiff-fest and they promptly got their accuracy back and never once complained that they were once again hitting things.

So imagine my surprise when they were *still* hitting everything, and they were all (particularly the RNGs, Minuet is sickly effective on ranged damage) still hitting quite consistently. Maybe missing every now and then but the extra damage per landed hit more than made up for the very infrequent misses.

Conclusion: I didn't know about sushi. After interrogating them to find out what had changed and learning about this wondrous new food, I did know about sushi. And so from actually trying out their suggestion, despite my own private misgivings that it would blow up and not work (like most suggestions end up doing - to this day I give them a fair shot however), I actually learned something and filed away in my little repertoire of what songs to pick, that double Minuet is viable with enough accuracy equipment/food. (Heh, these days I never touch madrigal except for skillups, building TP for some NM or other, or Aura Statues.)

And no, the suggestion wasn't couched in polite terms, if I recall it was something to the effect of "brd, give us double minuet" (not even "Vil", just "brd", and no "please" or "plz"). Sure, a "please" would have been nice but it isn't worth making a stink over. It's not like they went "you incompetent idiot, stop giving us that worthless madrigal and give us double fucking minuet, don't you know anything?"

There's "not-overtly-polite", and it ain't the same as "rude."

 

[Vilurum]

So imagine my surprise when they were *still* hitting everything, and they were all (particularly the RNGs, Minuet is sickly effective on ranged damage) still hitting quite consistently. Maybe missing every now and then but the extra damage per landed hit more than made up for the very infrequent misses.

Gogo no edit. Meant they were still hitting consistently, and they were all, particularly the RNGs, hitting for visibly more damage.

 

[Rones]

most are here SOLELY because he is a popular player, sure I know he's your friend, but are you here for any other reason?

While I know of Bj and respect him, we have never once talked to each other before. That makes being friends kind of difficult. :lol:

He was MAD that she didn't take as he put it "suggestion"

He is mad she wouldn't even discuss it. You are blaming the failure of communication on Bj when from what I have read lies on the whm. You have a problem in a party with another member not doing something right. How do you attempt to solve that? Well most of us would do exactly what Bj did and ask the person to change. If they don't want to change they should at least give a justification. If she had even gone so far as to just say "I can't spare the mp, I forgot, or I'm just lazy" that would have satisified the situation, but to just respond "Don't tell me how to play" fails terribly.

I'm just brining it up because this is why problems like this don't get solved and turn into one big mess.

These problems fail to get solved because one side gets defensive and refuses to reason with the other. The whm would not discuss the problem with Bj by repeatedly stating "Don't tell me how to play."

 

[Jagster]

Holy crap...I screwed my quote up big time, can I get a "reward" for that?

 

[Darkdante]

Ok this is gonna be my last response until later so don't expect one quick.

How do you attempt to solve that?

Most of us MALES yes. Normally I'd be on your side of the fence Rones, but after many a meeting about being a leader and treating people fairly I think I see this as a chance to safely see the other sides point of view. Actually I am a huge advocate about people being able to take constructive critisim and not getting all "pissy" about it.

Yes we MALES talk to each other like crap like this. HOWEVER not everyone is like this, male and female alike, and they shouldn't be talked to this way ESPECIALLY if your trying to be a leader. It is in my opinion this would never had happened if more respect was given by the leader. Don't you agree? The thread wouldn't have existed if the first mistake was not made.

I'm not arguing anything about her ditching the party, I"ve said it before and I'll say it again, I wouldn't be arguing if he started off saying "why do noobs ditch parties". Sure he did complain about it but it was more along the lines of "this is what else happened".

These problems happen because "as I"ve been told" the leader who's in the position of power refueses to give proper respect to the people he's leading.

 

[Rones]

I would agree with you on the respect issue except for a key factor in this situation DD. The whm failed to show respect to Bj and her fellow party members several times before Bj made his harsh comment. Most people do not return repeated rudeness and disrepect with politeness and respect. Respect is given where it is earned and deserved. She showed no respect to the party, so why should they show it in return?

 

[Ataerareta]

My philosophy is that I wait for a player to forget to do something before I ask them to do it. If I was in a pickup party and the leader said: "Now Pomp, I want you to sleep any adds", I would have an equally demeaning request of whatever the leader's job was. When I go to the grocery store, I don't tell the cashier: "I'd like my change, please" unless the person forgets to give it to me. I assume s/he knows the job. I treat FFXI the same way. It's hard to phrase a request for basic job functions without insulting a player's intelligence.

You said that you'd have an equally demeaning request of whatever the leader's job was. Did you ever consider what a leader's job is? Isnt the leader's job to lay out a battle plan at the start of the fight?

All bj asked of whm was haste. And I just wanna point out that whm was not the only one being singled out for being 'commanded' to perform a basic job @ the start of the fight. I belive Bj also told melees what SC to use and what order we should do it and what you can MB. That my rng should wait on sc unill mob is below 50% hp (blah blah). Since our camp had 2 pops, BJ just wanted to make sure @ start that everything goes on smoothly. When whm replied with that "I dont tell you how to do your job" comment the first time, Bj might have gotten offended but did not get mad @ her, since he kept his silence.

The 2nd time she said something like that was when I said during a mid exp chain fight: "buff gone." (Call that demanding or whatever, I admit i'm bossier than Bj) All I wanted was just to remind her of buffs so that I can run off and pull mobs ASAP to keep chain going.

As for the time where she forgot to haste bj for 2 fights. I admit I had some fault in it. Whm told us she needed some drink. It was @ around chain2... so I asked her to stay till end of chain. Ok, she was thirsty. Slacking a little was understandable. We all make mistakes. But what got Bj mad was that she told him she hasted him and that he wasnt looking. Only then did Bj tell her that "dont give me that crap."

I admit Bj might have gone a bit far posting her on flameboard, which 'ruins' a player's reputation. But isnt this forum created for things like that? Both sides says their side of the story and let the rest of the people decide. :roll:

*** Bleh, no1 care's abt Jonas. No fun ***

 

[Blackmagik]

I just haste tank and leave the rest to RDM usually...

that's right.. expect the RDM to do everything T.T

well, you aint ne biatch, <3 <3 <3 i love joo still ^^

 

[Elemmire]

blah.. silly taru x.x

 

[Jagster]

I'm sorry Ataerareta but are you somewhat getting me mixed up with someone else? That wasn't word for word, just bits and pieces. No big deal though.

Anyway, I think niether party was right so I'm not taking sides. Dispite the fact mielle is a friend of mine, I'm attempting try and not be biased. In the end both sides clearly overreacted. Mielle for warping out, and BJ for having to make a flame post...over this.

Suggestion SC and MBs always varies from party to party, it's not insulting.

But that'd be different from say..."Hey Jag, make sure you pull with bolts and not voke" That 'could' be considered the equal of the situation with haste before the battles started. I'd clearly be annoyed by this or a statement the equal of it. But I do think she overreacted a bit.

I'm not so sure this simple conflict of personalities deserved an attempt to ruin a person's good name though.

Good luck to you all avoiding these conflicts in the future, and may you enjoy yourselves in your future parties.

 

[Pompidou]

So, if I started a party and said: "Now monk, I'd like you to engage the mob this battle, and that goes for you too, Dragoon. Also Dragoon, make sure you use your 2 hr. I wanna see that Wyvern. Red Mage, please refresh the mp users and dispel as necessary. Paladin, you're the tank so I'd like vokes and self cures so that the mob doesn't hit the mages. Don't worry about hp. The Whm will be healing you. Got that, Whm? I want cures and lots of them. Blm, I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but I've had parties where the blm didn't cast any nukes. I'm just 'advising' you to cast your most damaging spells..." I would just be doing my job? Telling the party the skill chain, where to camp, what to pull - those are the usual pre party peptalk statements. Once again though, I don't think BJ was wrong for stating the obvious, but it's also pretty obvious why one would reply defensively.

 

[Synical]

My big peev here is people always say they "suggest" things and then when people don't follow suggestion they get mad.

take the flip side of that you goober. when someone isnt preforming their job to the full benifit of the party, shouldnt the party get mad at them?
i didnt read past this quote insert of yours, im far too tired. but whatever point you were trying to make playing devils advocite for the voiceless whm got lost somewhere along the line.

want to let your nin tank play your party withou haste and have a whm give him attitude for asking for a simple spell?
then lets have our plds not get refresh from their rdms either, and have the rdms scream "DONT ASK ME FOR REFRESH" when the pld with 30 mp requests it.
point is, nins get haste spammed on them just like plds get refresh.
If they Arent getting those spells, then the mages arent doing what they need to do, and need to be directed.
if they get huffy at that direction, they need to get a better grip on whats expected of them in a party.
~Syn

 

[Pompidou]

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the controversy wasn't asking for things after they were neglected, but rather, asking for the obvious before the pt even started. I don't think anyone disagreed with BJ after the two battles that he didn't get haste. The devil's advocates on this thread are claiming that such basics shouldn't be reminded to people before giving them a chance to prove they aren't morons. For example, if a paladin isn't using Provoke, and a battle or two goes by, by all means, get on that paladin's case. However, don't remind the paladin to use provoke before the party even starts, as that's just insulting.

 

[random hero]

My big peev here is people always say they "suggest" things and then when people don't follow suggestion they get mad.

take the flip side of that you goober. when someone isnt preforming their job to the full benifit of the party, shouldnt the party get mad at them?
i didnt read past this quote insert of yours, im far too tired. but whatever point you were trying to make playing devils advocite for the voiceless whm got lost somewhere along the line.

want to let your nin tank play your party withou haste and have a whm give him attitude for asking for a simple spell?
then lets have our plds not get refresh from their rdms either, and have the rdms scream "DONT ASK ME FOR REFRESH" when the pld with 30 mp requests it.
point is, nins get haste spammed on them just like plds get refresh.
If they Arent getting those spells, then the mages arent doing what they need to do, and need to be directed.
if they get huffy at that direction, they need to get a better grip on whats expected of them in a party.
~Syn

good man