Duoing SMN/WHM & BST/WHM

[Oracle]

Okay, here is the deal. About three days ago my friend Quab and I got incredibly bored looking for a party. We started talking about how we wish we had something to do when the parties were not biting. One thing leads to another and we thought up this really fun idea of us two duoing to level 50.

He decided he would like to level up beastmaster. I told him I would level up summoner because I've heard it was doable... but my question to you guys is... what would be the best possible advice about maximizing our XP per hour? Take in mind; we are not the richest people on the server. I have about 1.2m in my name, and he is down to a quarter of that...

 

[Tim Wakefield]

Nevermind, didnt realize its not your sig image... sorry

 

[Oracle]

Nevermind, didnt realize its not your sig image... sorry

Would that image be too large if it was a sig? Sorry for the deception ^^

 

[LadyKiKi]

maximizing our XP per hour?

If you're going to be SMN to duo with your friend, sub WHM, and if the other is going to be BST ... make your friend sub WAR. First of you 2 should solo until level 10 then start looking for Even Match to Tough prey. Ideally, your friend as BST should tank, with provoke. You should keep him alive through light curing.

Charming monsters won't work too well at this level. You can also help with the damage as SMN, pull Carbuncle out then cast Dia and then Blood Pact: Poison Nails. Your friend could have a pet charmed, and it will only affect his EXP. It'll maximize yours, but not your friend's due to the penalty of killing a monster with a charmed pet. At higher levels, (20+) charmed pets would be more effective and at 23 the BST can use jug pets without EXP penalties. If you can manage to keep taking down toughs via good use of Dia and curing him, you can get some chains going.

I know you said you're not rich, but making/buying some MP drinks for yourself (Pineapple (1mp), Melon (2mp, short time) or Yagudo Drink (2mp, long time) will extend your XP/hour greatly, since you don't have to rest for MP and can keep healing and using offensive attacks from Carbuncle.

 

[Mishaela]

I'd agree with pretty much all Kiki said, except...well, /WAR can be good, and you get Provoke at L10 as BST/WAR, but at L15 you can use Stink Bats on Maze Makers pretty easily (Goblins -might- work as well in duo) and you wouldn't wanna really be tanking those...

Also, pre-Leave I personally used Stay when the mob was right by death, that way the mob could kill my pet before I finish it for full XP. Dunno if doing that or chain-killing would provide better XP in the long run in a duo case, though. (Of course there's always the Call Beast option later on, but...)

 

[Halifirien]

Using jug pets against Even and Tough mobs isn't a great idea -- I guess it would work if the BST is tanking and the SMN is curing -- because xp mobs will chew through them. But the point of the exercise should be to let the pets tank, or else you're looking at a lot of downtime for resting.

 

[Oracle]

It's a crying shame that my friend is the taru beastmaster... and I'm the mithra summoner. I appreciate both of your help! We both are level 15 so I may go take up Mishaela's idea about the Maze Makers... We were both discouraged at level 14-15 because where we were leveling, the meriphated mountains(sp?), we were getting like 70-80 exp per monster and wasn't able to chain that often. We died... alot, and got little exp. I hope this changes higher in the levels. Are there any good reasons to use any other avatar for DOT?... I don't really see such a big difference in avitar damage, but I'm not usually paying attention. BTW, I am using Orange Juice.. but recently ran out T.T'

 

[Lecan]

Actually, BST and SMN duo's work just like BST duo's, the only difference is the SMN has more MP than you and doesn't have to deal with mischarms.

If you guys are going to strictly duo, I recommend this:

Don't think of it like a regular party. If the SMN is going to be duoing with you she isn't going to need craptons of MND+ gear to help with cures, on the contrary, it would be better if she has a crapton of +MP gear to assure that she can leave her avatars out longer.

As for BST, you would merely follow normal BST soloing protocol. Kiki is right about not really bothering to charm pre level 10, because it is honestly faster to just kill straight off than to worry about pets. However, 1-10 is a nice place to learn how to use charm, test your macro's, and learn a bit about BST before you have to deal with a lot of exp loss from death.

At 23+ I wouldn't use jug pets. While you don't get any exp loss from them, I somewhat doubt that a jug pet and an avatar would last long enough to keep chains going. They have lower defense, HP, accuracy, and attack than a normal pet so they tend to die quickly. They also can only be called every 5 minutes. Only time you should worry about them besides a true exp party is for farming or saving your ass.

I also recommend you don't use any melee food. You'll already have a hard enough time with pets keeping hate (even avatars) pre 30, so making it so you hit harder will only make that problem worse. If you want to use food stick to MP+ stuff like pies. Refresh drinks are cool too, but keep in mind that they can be expensive and really bog down your inventory. In fact I recommend that instead of using them you learn to be more efficient with your MP. Learn when to rest, when to not rest. If you have to rest during battle do so, since your pet will be doing most of the fighting anyhow.

If you're looking for specific information on how BST does their thing you can check the Allakhazam.com BST forum, they have a buch of resources there available to help teach you the job and allow you to learn what you need to survive.

Edit: Looking at the post was made before I posted this: Try to stick to EM-T mobs at all times, at least until your pets start to get a bit stronger and you can take down T-VT mobs. Don't worry too much about chains, because it's always hard to get them at lower levels. Let the pets do the work, Melee when you have to to assure that the pets will survive, but if you pull hate disengage your target lock and turn around until the pets are tanking again. BST can chain because they don't tank, their pets do. It's no different in a duo.

 

[LadyKiKi]

Using jug pets against Even and Tough mobs isn't a great idea -- I guess it would work if the BST is tanking and the SMN is curing -- because xp mobs will chew through them. But the point of the exercise should be to let the pets tank, or else you're looking at a lot of downtime for resting.

Yeh it's true, but as you should know, at that level it's still rather difficult to let the pet tank unless you're really holding back at early levels, but until at least 30+ to maximise EXP per hour I think it would be best to just go all out, since you have a curer and a pet to help deal damage, rather then to try and plant hate on the pet while the BST is swinging an axe, since the SMN would be curing (which will steal hate anyway quite quickly, or a Poison Nails from Carbuncle will mess things up).

Jug pets provide the luxury of that there's no EXP penalty and they can somewhat help to the damage input. So with the BST tanking and SMN doing light curing and buffs and a Dia/Paralyze here and there, it should help immensly. But if chains doesn't matter at early levels, you just might as well aim for decent challenges and go for mass kill over time rather then spending that much more effort to take down a EM/T?

EDIT: Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Halifirien]

Yeah, but if you're going with a tank and a healer, just get four other people and make a full party. The point of BST and SMN duo is to let the pets tank.

 

[Neyla]

Yeah, but if you're going with a tank and a healer, just get four other people and make a full party. The point of BST and SMN duo is to let the pets tank.

A full party with a traditional tank since BSTs are miserable at taking damage no matter how they're geared up, especially tarus and mithras. Certainly, at 30+ the BST should be subbing WHM or maybe sometimes NIN. Anything else will get both people killed fast.

 

[Lecan]

Yeh it's true, but as you should know, at that level it's still rather difficult to let the pet tank unless you're really holding back at early levels, but until at least 30+ to maximise EXP per hour I think it would be best to just go all out, since you have a curer and a pet to help deal damage, rather then to try and plant hate on the pet while the BST is swinging an axe, since the SMN would be curing (which will steal hate anyway quite quickly, or a Poison Nails from Carbuncle will mess things up).

Jug pets provide the luxury of that there's no EXP penalty and they can somewhat help to the damage input. So with the BST tanking and SMN doing light curing and buffs and a Dia/Paralyze here and there, it should help immensly. But if chains doesn't matter at early levels, you just might as well aim for decent challenges and go for mass kill over time rather then spending that much more effort to take down a EM/T?

EDIT: Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The issue isn't kill speed, but downtime. That is the reason why BST tend to limit themselves when it comes to exping solo/duo, going "all out" means pulling hate off the pet, taking massive damage, and requiring a lot of curing/healing MP to continue.

With your strategy in mind, it wouldn't be long before the SMN had to dismiss the avatar and start main healing, by the end of the battle (If they survived), said SMN would be low on MP if not already out. This creates at least a minute and thirty seconds of downtime, you might get a chain 1, but nothing beyond that.

Typically, until level 30 BST don't melee against the mobs they fight. Maybe a few swings here and there to even the playing field (If the mob has too much HP left) or to skill up axe, but they never actually go in there with the expectation of doing a lot of damage. Pets don't hold hate well at all before 30, and playing with a devil may care attitude with BST is only going to serve to get you killed. In a duo it is a bit safer, but not by much.

Self sufficiency is the key. If the BST and SMN are taking care of themselves, they can be most efficient and lessen downtime, ergo they kill faster and get exp more often (not necessarily chains).

 

[LadyKiKi]

Yeah, but if you're going with a tank and a healer, just get four other people and make a full party. The point of BST and SMN duo is to let the pets tank.

That's true, but attempting to let a pet tank while trying to get the monster down at those levels seem to be a waste of effort. At the level 30 or so mark when monsters scale up 3 fold in terms of their offense is when pets can somewhat tank without worrying too much on. The point at the moment is to maximize EXP since they are so early in their levels rather then to try to have a pet tank.

What you say is right about letting the pet tank and I can see it working, because the point is to take little damage yourselves while letting the expendable/disposable pet take all the pain, but at such a low level (pre 10-20 at the moment) should it matter too much? I can see those 2 now trying to get the Demsfly to keep hate on the Snipper while the BST is swinging its axe, then turning around because after 2 swings the Snipper focuses on the BST, and after taking a hit or 2 the SMN heals the BST with 1 or 2 Cures, then the Snipper going after the SMN.


EDIT in reply to Lecan's post above mine:

Going for speed here, I mentioned juices earlier. The SMN's avatars should only be called out to perform a bloodpact, then dismissed and the SMN should go play WHM and throw in a debuff or 2 while the BST is meleeing along with a pet. It'll be just even more downtime to have the SMN to have Carbuncle out just to deal some damage, better save the MP for curing instead and resting in between pulls or during the early battle. Juices will be for those slightly difficult times. I understand it's a lot different at higher levels when charmed pets will get stronger, but I typically think in my view that lower levels it doesn't matter at all too much, this is only to maximize EXP. You're going to pull hate off no matter what at those levels, or spend a long time going pet vs mob while you 2 stand there and watch thing.

Another alternative (maybe? I'm just spreading ideas here): Equip low delay/weak daggers to do some chip damage to prevent hate stealing. At level (20?) Ramuh can be used to give Enthunder to you both. Both SMN and BST have Dagger skills which can be put to use, or let the SMN equip a staff instead.

I'll stop arguing the point now. But with a tiny bit of preparation I think both will work just fine (Lecan's and Halifirien) for those levels.

 

[Neyla]

That's true, but attempting to let a pet tank while trying to get the monster down at those levels seem to be a waste of effort. At the level 30 or so mark when monsters scale up 3 fold in terms of their offense is when pets can somewhat tank without worrying too much on. The point at the moment is to maximize EXP since they are so early in their levels rather then to try to have a pet tank.

That waste of effort is how most BSTs level pre-Leave, with almost no meleeing until 30+ when the pets improve. If we had some glorified rat with wings flopping around every fight and curing us every time we cast Dia it would be one thing, but since our pets can't heal us BSTs have to stay in the backline for quite some time and simply stick to killing Decent, Even and sometimes Tough prey for the most part. And there's still plenty of deaths involved, which is why most people who try BST give up before they ever get close to obtaining Leave.

 

[Lecan]

It doesn't appear you know very much about BST, no offense intended Ladykiki ^^.

I believe they said they were at level 15.

We both are level 15 so I may go take up Mishaela's idea about the Maze Makers...

This means they are early on in their career, but not so early that letting the BST try to tank would be a good idea. 1-10 you are correct, having the BST sub War and tear through mobs would be the best plan for getting quick exp.

But seeing as how they are 15, mobs are already too powerful for a BST to tank for more than a few seconds before becoming a pile of disembowled goo on the sand in Valkurm.

Maximizing exp in a bst/smn duo is exactly what they would be doing by letting the pets tank. There would simply be an unimagineable amount of downtime between every fight.

As far as your example:

A BST likely wouldn't be using a dameselfly against a snipper, snippers have more defense and would tank a hell of a lot better than a fly. There's also the fact that parties level on the snippers frequently, so generally speaking unless they are in a not often camped section of the dunes they won't be using either of those mobs to exp much.

If the BST were to take hate as per your example, he would turn around, take a hit or two, then the pet would take hate back. Upon taking hate back the BST would run out of hate range (Ie: Until you can't see the mob on your radar) and heal himself with a few small cures. The SMN wouldn't heal the BST period unless he was low on MP and required resting, and she too would move out of hate range while casting to prevent the mob from coming after her or the BST due to curing.

 

[Neyla]

In the end, if you can bear through the first 35 levels of it together you should be fine because that's when BSTs and their pets start to shine. I doubt a BST/SMN duo could consistently kill the same type of mobs a BST/BST duo could, but you should manage fine if you can live with killing Tough mobs most of your careers.

 

[LadyKiKi]

That waste of effort is how most BSTs level pre-Leave, with almost no meleeing until 30+ when the pets improve. If we had some glorified rat with wings flopping around every fight and curing us every time we cast Dia it would be one thing, but since our pets can't heal us BSTs have to stay in the backline for quite some time and simply stick to killing Decent, Even and sometimes Tough prey for the most part. This is why most people who try BST give up before they ever get close to obtaining Leave.

LOL you hurt my feelings (well actually you made me laugh ...).

On the comment of people quitting before Leave, my BST is 29/30 (I forget until I log on again >_<) and it's been a breeze so far. Like the people who bitched and moaned about the Level 20 mini avatar fights, they weren't at all that hard, but seemed hard just because everyone else set the mentality on the boards that they were. Unless you're a Tarutaru though, since you potentially struggle due to your HP. Naturally I died in my first "experiment" fight, but except Ramuh which took me 3 attempts, every other avatar died to me first go. Levelling BST to 35 didn't prove at all hard to me either.

Lecan, I'm only 29/30. I don't know too much but have spoke to several and watched several and read much about it. I missed the level 15 comment, I must've skipped a reply by accident. No offense taken, it's good to teach/share knowledge. And my "pet vs mob" mental chart isn't too clear yet either, lol. I'll take anything against anything, haha.

 

[K. Ishitar]

Lol @ Kiki, your right mini battles=too weak, all the avatars have relatively low hp or dia/bio and poison nails chew through it real fast. Of course i wouldn't recommend DoT's because they put more hate on you rather than the avatar, even poison nails which is weird since you think the avatar would gain more hate/shrug

Anyway I think its been said about jug pets in burns but let me expand on it a bit.

Jugs cap DC to the bst, but if you pick up a dc natural pet it has much more hp and more att to it. Or so it seems to me >.>, it would be wise to stay away from jug pets unless your trying to zone. Sure your friend will have a negative exp impact but its better exp over time because of a stronger and more reliant pet.

 

[Dejan]

IMO, i'd lay off the Smn | Bst duo till 35 at least.

Having one person gain less xp than the other (by 30%) isn't nice.

Bst and Smn duo really shine when going vs. Bombs. Easy xp, and very safe due to the fact that you will ALWAYS have a pet on the Bomb, at a distance, so it will never really get close to exploding near you.

If i were to duo normal xp mobs, i'd definitely have the SMN keep it's avatar out all the time, but that's just me... Plus, MP may be an issue... Maybe subbing brd at 50 for an extra MP tick... I really don't know.

Anywho, i hear it's doable, and nice xp at times.

Cheers and Good Luck
dj


Edit: Yeah, avoid Jug pets like the plague. Even though they do okay damage, their HP is low (kinda like gob pets, which, infact, give out amazing XP if rated T-VT).

 

[Negorissimo]

Go and fight VT or IT Bombs (close to your lvl).

The chance of they blowing up will maximize your XP per hour.

If you guys are skilled or lucky you can get chains going and all. ^^