DVD 2.0

[Tagrineth]

I'm sure the consoles will update fine, I just don't think people will develop the infrastructure to print the discs. It's too late in the generation I'm afraid. I'm not saying I wouldn't like it to happen, I'm just saying I don't think it will.

If a handful of games crop up even in the last year of the console's life that use them, it'll be dang spiffy IMO.

I think you're being FAR too pessimistic about this technology.

Besides, who's to say exactly 0% of DVD players out there will support these DVD 2.0 discs? All electronics (or pretty close) have some form of firmware. It might not always be flashable but I'd hazard that at least a decent chunk of DVD players out there may well have flashable firmware, and I'm sure a decent enough portion of consumers wouldn't really have that much of a problem updating it if it was made easy enough.

Not only that but does anything say whether a regular DVD player will be capable of reading any data at all on the DVD 2.0 disc or is a firmware update required from the word go?

 

[Firestreak]

If a handful of games crop up even in the last year of the console's life that use them, it'll be dang spiffy IMO.

I think you're being FAR too pessimistic about this technology.

Besides, who's to say exactly 0% of DVD players out there will support these DVD 2.0 discs? All electronics (or pretty close) have some form of firmware. It might not always be flashable but I'd hazard that at least a decent chunk of DVD players out there may well have flashable firmware, and I'm sure a decent enough portion of consumers wouldn't really have that much of a problem updating it if it was made easy enough.

Not only that but does anything say whether a regular DVD player will be capable of reading any data at all on the DVD 2.0 disc or is a firmware update required from the word go?

I think I'm being realistic, not pessimistic. I don't see customers going around flashing their firmware manually. I don't think there's enough people that even know what firmware means. You're thinking about tech enthusiasts here who are interested in this sort of thing. You're going to get thousands of people willing to do it out of millions of people. The only real userbase will be the Xbox 360 - and I highly doubt Xbox 360 users are going to be buying DVD 2.0s in the millions. It's not as good as Blu-ray, won't have support and unlike the PS3, no one will be buying it as a movie player.

 

[Bajaratt]

DVD 2.0's will be readable in existing DVD players since they use MPEG-2 encoding, they just won't be able to access the high definition content without the firmware update, there is no special hardware to buy. All they'd have to do is package the firmware update on the DVD and distribution would take care of itself. All the customer would have to do is put the DVD in just like if they were going to watch the movie(in fact, they could do that too). I know that requires mad technical skills, but I think most people could wing it.

Even if this didn't take off for movies, it'd definitely be useful for the game industry. The studios might back this format though, since they're still making 1000x more money from DVD's as blu-ray. They could just stop making normal DVD's in favor of these new ones and their profits wouldn't be effected at all.

 

[Firestreak]

You need an upscaling player to be able to output it in high def, obviously, meaning it would be useless for the vast majority of DVD players. You need the firmware update to make it even readable. Reading discs does not work the way you describe Bajaratt. There's reading the data off the disc, processing it, and outputting it. If the problem is in reading the disc itself, you can't put the firmware update on the disc itself.

And even if they could, you still have different models of upscaling DVD players. Bill has a Sony Model 110. Jenny has a Toshiba Model 312. Which firmware update do I put on the disc? What if none of the manufacturers of Blu-ray players want to put out firmware updates for their DVD upscalers?

Does this disc replace DVDs? Or does it get sold separately. Are retailers going to push another MS/Toshiba high def disc? If it replaced DVD, are they going to cut off all the former DVD owners who don't have upscaling players? If it'll run as standard definition on any DVD player, is it worth it to studios to lower the profit margin or raise prices on DVDs to try and sell to this quazi-upscaling market? If yes, why didn't HD DVD/DVD combo discs take off like a bat out of hell?

 

[Bajaratt]

You need an upscaling player to be able to output it in high def, obviously, meaning it would be useless for the vast majority of DVD players.

Yes, you'd need an upscaling player to play in HD, but it'd still work in normal DVD players. The studio's could stop making normal DVD's and most customers wouldn't have any idea aside from a single firmware update.

You need the firmware update to make it even readable. Reading discs does not work the way you describe Bajaratt. There's reading the data off the disc, processing it, and outputting it. If the problem is in reading the disc itself, you can't put the firmware update on the disc itself.

Yes, you can. I've gotten several firmware updates from Toshiba for my HD-DVD players, I just popped the disc in, it updated the firmware, and I went back about my business. The update would only be to access the high definition portion of the disc anyways, they could have the update portion in the section that would be normally readable.

And even if they could, you still have different models of upscaling DVD players. Bill has a Sony Model 110. Jenny has a Toshiba Model 312. Which firmware update do I put on the disc? What if none of the manufacturers of Blu-ray players want to put out firmware updates for their DVD upscalers?

Firmware updates are incredibly small, they could easily pack all of them onto a single disc and maybe take up 1% of the space. Plus, a lot of the firmware will be the same, since all DVD players use the exact same decoding algorithm(and since these new discs use the same encoding as normal DVD's, that wouldn't even have to be touched). So now, they'd only have to change the maybe 20% of the firmware that'd be unique to each manufacturer, so you're looking at an even smaller amount of data to change. You'd only have to fit what, 10 brands worth of updates to hit 99% of the DVD players out there? 10x a very small file is only a small file, still nothing to be concerned with.

Does this disc replace DVDs? Or does it get sold separately.

They could fit it all onto one disc, or they could just package two discs with it. That would be more confusing for the dumber customers, but I'm sure the literate ones could figure it out.

Are retailers going to push another MS/Toshiba high def disc? If it replaced DVD, are they going to cut off all the former DVD owners who don't have upscaling players?

There wouldn't be any cut off for people who only want SD movies, since it'd still work just fine.

it'll run as standard definition on any DVD player, is it worth it to studios to lower the profit margin or raise prices on DVDs to try and sell to this quazi-upscaling market?

Even cutting their profits in half(and I'm over exaggerating about that loss), they'd still be making far more money off of this new format than with blu-rays.

 

[Firestreak]

Yes, you'd need an upscaling player to play in HD, but it'd still work in normal DVD players. The studio's could stop making normal DVD's and most customers wouldn't have any idea aside from a single firmware update.

So your theory is that they're going to stop producing regular DVDs and move onto this new, more expensive to make DVD?

Yes, you can. I've gotten several firmware updates from Toshiba for my HD-DVD players, I just popped the disc in, it updated the firmware, and I went back about my business.

This is different. We're talking about reading data off the disc at all. If it needs a firmware update to read the disc, then it needs a firmware update to read the firmware update that's on the disc. Hence the problem is... reading the disc, which not all DVD players can do.

Firmware updates are incredibly small, they could easily pack all of them onto a single disc and maybe take up 1% of the space. Plus, a lot of the firmware will be the same, since all DVD players use the exact same decoding algorithm(and since these new discs use the same encoding as normal DVD's, that wouldn't even have to be touched). So now, they'd only have to change the maybe 20% of the firmware that'd be unique to each manufacturer, so you're looking at an even smaller amount of data to change. You'd only have to fit what, 10 brands worth of updates to hit 99% of the DVD players out there? 10x a very small file is only a small file, still nothing to be concerned with.

It's not a question of space, it's a question of being able to read the file.

They could fit it all onto one disc, or they could just package two discs with it. That would be more confusing for the dumber customers, but I'm sure the literate ones could figure it out.

It would have to be on a separate, 5 gig disc. Otherwise players couldn't read the actual disc to get the firmware update. Now... with every movie you sell, you need to toss in a second disc for the firmware update.

There wouldn't be any cut off for people who only want SD movies, since it'd still work just fine.

Data doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter what video codec you use. Every DVD player has to be able to actually READ the data off of the disc. If it's a question of outputting the video/audio, yes, you are correct. However the problem is that these DVD players weren't built to read off of these discs.

Even cutting their profits in half(and I'm over exaggerating about that loss), they'd still be making far more money off of this new format than with blu-rays.

If studios were producing their content exclusive to blu-ray and skipping DVD releases, you might have a point, but last I checked even Sony still prints DVDs. Blu-rays may not be as profitable as DVDs but they aren't being sold instead of DVDs last I checked, rather in addition to.

On top of all this, in exchange for added sales of a few who might buy these DVD 2.0s as opposed to upgrading to Blu-ray, you're tossing out everyone with an un-upgradable DVD player, or a DVD player where the firmware isn't going to be updated to run these discs. Every one of these companies will have to make all their own firmware updates for every single DVD player model if they can even be upgraded, are they going to do this? Outside of companies actually invested in DVD 2.0, who would even want to? They sell hardware, not services. They'd probably prefer you go ahead and buy their new 2.0 capable model.

It's a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I'm sure Microsoft would love it though so they can save the day with digital downloads.

 

[Bajaratt]

So your theory is that they're going to stop producing regular DVDs and move onto this new, more expensive to make DVD?

If that was my theory, I would have said that. Instead I said that they could stop making normal DVD's and the SD consumer wouldn't tell the difference other than the update.

This is different. We're talking about reading data off the disc at all. If it needs a firmware update to read the disc, then it needs a firmware update to read the firmware update that's on the disc. Hence the problem is... reading the disc, which not all DVD players can do.

If they can read a normal DVD, then they can read these discs. They only need the firmware update to access the high definition portion, not to just be able to read the disc.

Data doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter what video codec you use. Every DVD player has to be able to actually READ the data off of the disc. If it's a question of outputting the video/audio, yes, you are correct. However the problem is that these DVD players weren't built to read off of these discs.

You're making it sound like the DVD players don't have the hardware, when it's only the firmware that they're lacking. And again, they can access part of the disc on ANY player, they just won't have full access to the content without doing the update.

If studios were producing their content exclusive to blu-ray and skipping DVD releases, you might have a point, but last I checked even Sony still prints DVDs. Blu-rays may not be as profitable as DVDs but they aren't being sold instead of DVDs last I checked, rather in addition to.

And now they could make profit on three fronts, or they could cover two fronts with the DVD 2.0's. This would add a new market for them to tap, people who want HD content, but aren't willing to spend a lot of money on it. It's a pretty large market, so obviously they'd look into it.

 

[Firestreak]

If they can read a normal DVD, then they can read these discs. They only need the firmware update to access the high definition portion, not to just be able to read the disc.

That would be true if they were putting high def content onto regular DVDs. These discs would require content to actually pull data off of the discs. Not a question of decoding the data(although that would be impossible for older DVD players), it's a question of reading the data, using a disc it wasn't designed for. Older DVD players can't even pull data off of DVD RW format.

You're making it sound like the DVD players don't have the hardware, when it's only the firmware that they're lacking. And again, they can access part of the disc on ANY player, they just won't have full access to the content without doing the update.

They may have the hardware(some may not, as well), but the function to read the data off this disc, which would be different than reading off of an older disc, would be different, and the firmware would have to be adjusted. For this same reason, the 500 gig blu-ray discs that have been developed can't be simply popped into any blu-ray player without a firmware update, even though they're reading the same kind of data - they need the firmware update to actually read it.

And now they could make profit on three fronts, or they could cover two fronts with the DVD 2.0's. This would add a new market for them to tap, people who want HD content, but aren't willing to spend a lot of money on it. It's a pretty large market, so obviously they'd look into it.

Well they sure as hell can't stop producing DVDs in favor of DVD 2.0s, I hope you aren't going to make that case. If they're selling them a third format, between DVD and Blu-ray, forget about it. People are going to stick to their DVD, upscale their DVDs or move on to Blu-ray. The market for a sub-HD format isn't going to be strong. Studio support for this new format that they don't need and seems designed to simply take bites out of their DVD and Blu-ray sales is going to be abysmal. Retail support for another HD format is going to be nonexistant.

 

[Tagrineth]

Firestreak, did it ever occur to you that maybe the DVD2.0 discs are dual format and actually have a portion or a layer that can be read back on a regular non updated DVD reader?

 

[Skaw]

Xbox 360 CAN use it, although Xbox 360 users without internet access to update won't be able to. (You can't put the update on the disc... as the Xbox 360 won't be able to read it...) So it's possible. As a movie format, thoroughly impossible.

Because it's hard for Microsoft to release like a $2 DVD(shit, just a CD will do) containing the firmware update? Or burn the firmware update on a disc from a friends house and upgrade at home? Or the person take their xbox to said friends house and hook it up to their network to get the update? You don't need Xbox Live Gold to get system updates.

If you don't know atleast one person with internet of any kind, you're living somewhere that doesn't sell video games in the first place.

 

[Firestreak]

Firestreak, did it ever occur to you that maybe the DVD2.0 discs are dual format and actually have a portion or a layer that can be read back on a regular non updated DVD reader?

It's technically possible that one side could be regular DVD and the other side DVD 2.0 - and the user has to flip back and forth. That would unfortunately cut the available memory in half though.

Because it's hard for Microsoft to release like a $2 DVD(shit, just a CD will do) containing the firmware update? Or burn the firmware update on a disc from a friends house and upgrade at home? Or the person take their xbox to said friends house and hook it up to their network to get the update? You don't need Xbox Live Gold to get system updates.

If you don't know atleast one person with internet of any kind, you're living somewhere that doesn't sell video games in the first place.

I said it could be done, not arguing that fact. Only said it'd be slightly messy, and yeah... games that require certain firmwares, but don't come with that firmware on the disc = messy. It's not like they couldn't just put on the box "need updated firmware." As a games format it's feasible. Just saying it's late in the generation for that to become anything mainstream. If a few games can benefit from it, as a gamer, I'm happy.

 

[Firestreak]

double post

 

[TheOsyris]

If a few games can benefit from it, as a gamer, I'm happy.

I dont even think DVD2.0 is needed yet in gaming as we see with so many great games released on DVD9 already and more coming. But i would think giving devs more space, with a more familiar platform to develope with like 360... Could make some true break through games no?

 

[Firestreak]

Better tools = better tech, that's just common sense. If we're going to see breakthroughs resulted by more disc space? I don't know. However disc space is a choke point for the 360. The more detailed the textures, the better quality the video/audio = the more space it eats up quickly. That's why cream of the crop like Gears of War has a lot of the same textures shown over and over - and the game length short for what's considered a system seller title. If you could imagine something like the graphics Gears of War 1 with the scope and length of Resistance 1, that's what some might call a breakthrough... I'd call Drake's: Uncharted Fortune. (Graphics and length wise, not comparing game quality.)

This would help PS3 out even, as most of the games coming out for both systems are multiplatform, and coded with the 360's disc space in mind. This is wishful thinking however... I'd assume the only publisher interested enough in pushing this forward is Microsoft themself.

 

[Anttaru]

I dont even think DVD2.0 is needed yet in gaming as we see with so many great games released on DVD9 already and more coming. But i would think giving devs more space, with a more familiar platform to develope with like 360... Could make some true break through games no?

With more access on the disc, X360 would be able to play games with with cleaner texturing, and the developers wouldn't complain so much about running out of space and having to leave some things out. Everything we play today could have been done on CD, but will less detail.

This DVD2.0 would allow X360 games to deliver more of everything used to make the games as they are now, and the results would be above the output we receive from the current X360. I know i like to use Ninja Gaiden a lot, but seriously, from a technical standpoint Gaiden II doesn't match Sigma's technical presentation at all, and it would have been done better on the PS3, not because the PS3 can do things the X360 cannot, but because the PS3's media has more space for High definition gaming. Gaiden II would have been more completed if it were done on one of these DVD2.0, and the Developers would have had the opportunity to make Gaiden II surpass Sigma's presentation.

The gaming world, or more specifically X360 is very ready for this disc, and it would really be swell of Microsoft if they'd bend backwards to make this a reality for their console. You paid for a console that promised great output, there is no overkill in what higher capacity discs offer.

As for the production of DVD2.0, I'd say it needn't be sold as frequently as Blu Ray or DVD in order to be mass produced. All they need is just the right amount of factories to cater to X360. The profits from XBL should be more than enough to develop and manufacture these, and having a blank spindle of these babies that work with a standard DVD burner wouldn't be too shabby either.

 

[Firestreak]

It's October now, we all convinced that this was just hot air yet?

 

[Taurothar]

It's October now, we all convinced that this was just hot air yet?

I know in my store we sell one of Toshiba's "Super up converting" players, and I think it looks *worse* than Bose Lifestyle or PS3/any blu-ray player at upscaling. We've tested no less than a dozen standard def dvds, and polled the whole staff. Short answer is that it's not worth anything more than your average upscaler. I know this isn't the whole DVD2.0 that this thread is about, but it's advertised right on it that it's almost as good as true 1080p.

 

[Firestreak]

It's all a funny game being played. You get your video quality from the bitrate not the resolution. Upscaling to increase the resolution merely takes away the pixelation that makes regular DVDs pretty much unwatchable on HDTVs. Same deal with HDTV over downloads. When you have a 4-6 gig file for a 2 hour movie, you just don't have the information for the detail in the picture.

 

[TheOsyris]

It's October now, we all convinced that this was just hot air yet?

I honestly dont think about it as much as you... But to answer your question. No.

 

[Strid]

I honestly dont think about it as much as you... But to answer your question. No.

What the hell man? When I saw the resurrection of this topic 5 jokes hit me. The Halo is cripplin' your noodle.