Dynamis Shells Funding Weapons

[Firestreak]

Fyi, nobody does Dynamis FOR gil, so stop making that point.

The question is what to do with the gil that is made in the process. I haven't really heard any arguments as to why one person deserves it all, nor have I heard any arguments for how supporting a person to level 4 will benefit the shell's strength versus throwing 100s of millions of gil at the members to collectively buy gear.

 

[decidence]

Lavi the fact that your deducing relic weaponry down to "e-peen" is offensive at best. I actually think I may have threw up a little bit in my mouth. Your flaming is not welcome here, and telling me that I shouldn't be able to get help with one of the only things I want help getting in this game simply because it means nothing to YOU is an opinion I don't think many people share.

This game revolves around people helping people, regardless how big or small or how expensive or inexpensive. The value of something should not determine whether someone gets help or not, because in the end not everyone values everything the same and what you think is trash I may think is treasure and what you want help with I might think is worthless and not worth the effort, but I will be there to help the people who have stood by me at the end of this road.

Where will you be?

 

[Shaidalyn]

I'll be passing on my currency if we have a shell relic person.. Do I want a relic upgrade? Even partially? Hell yes.. but will I ever have one? No. Will I ever have a K.Club or Aristocrat's Coat or Herald's Gaiters? No.. but I can want them.. but logically it will never ever ever happen for me.

So what will I do? Do my damndest to help people obtain theirs. The only "free lot" I support is to have the leader have ALL the coins collected by ONE person and distribute evenly.
You all make points of unfair, how is it fair if someone is SO lucky to end up with 2x the coins of any other individual? If you're gonna split it, be perfect.. if not? Godspeed to relic builders.

 

[Cythe]

Lavi, might I remind you this isn't a flameboard, so stop making personal attacks. You may not believe it, and honestly I don't care, but if the shell decided someone else should get the weapon, or totally rebounded the idea of upgrading, I'd give them the coins. I said earlier, it's a team effort, and regardless of the outcome, the idea is to do something as a group. Not for efficiency or e-peen, but for the hell of it.

It's a GAME. I can part with coins because when this computer turns off, I walk out the door and do things with my life that have nothing to do with Dynamis or relic weapons, or anything FFXI related.

On a side note, this has been said many times before for my case, but I didn't even ASK to be the person upgrading a weapon. I was put up for it by my comrades, and every single person joining the shell has known the destination of the coins upon joining. I would gladly give them to Elemmire, or maybe Djrealmz, or Jescer, or some of the other really hard working good people in the shell. But the concern isn't who gets it, it's whether it gets done. It's a shell achievement, yet all of you people can't seem to remove your focus from the personalized aspect of it.

Who cares who holds the weapon? Unless you really are that self centered. I'd give my weapon to another deserving player in a second if it weren't R/E, because it'll still be the same team working for my weapon. No, sorry, -our- weapon.

If you really think it's such BS in the first place, make your own Dynamis shell. Lead them to wins, get them past Beacedine, get them AF2, make the runs go smoothly enough to even reap a decent coin total, THEN you can come talk. Seriously, if members want to leave over something they agreed to in the first place, you can have them, because I don't want nor need them. Loyalty is a hell of a lot more important to me than numbers.

*Btw, this topic would have a very different spin about 2 years ago, though most of you will probably refuse to accept that as well.

 

[Firestreak]

Almost every ex/rare piece of equipment in this game requires help. Every piece of sky gear, every piece of af2, every piece of af+1, every BQ ring, every optical hat, ungur boomerang, moldevite earring, swift belt...

These were all attained by group effort for a single person.

None of these items take a particulary long time.

When I join a linkshell that would encompass Ifrit Cauldron pop NMs in its jurisdiction, I expect help killing Bomb Queen if I need it.

Generally people think about getting Ungur boomerang, BQ Ring, ext first and then think about getting lvl 4 relic weapons second.

Now I am under the impression you have quite a few of the ex/rare items that are difficult to get, and by that measure I know you've gotten quite a bit of help in your days. I'm not assuming you haven't returned tons of help in kind... I'm just saying.. well, what I think a person should really be able to expect help on. Mainly things that they can't get for themselves.

Now coins, they can be bought. Attestion on the other hand your linkshell should get for you. Whatever NMs you need on the inside that drop ex/rare you should be able to get. Most importantly because you then have ample chance to help others with those NMs. Those are short things time wise, and you can get to everyone.

Level 4 relic on the other hand... this is not an exchange of help. This is one sided and there's no way to argue otherwise. If you profit 2 million gil's worth of coins every run for a year are you afterwards going to dump 2 million's gil worth of coins back into the LS every run? Or are you just going to attend, put in your 100k worth of profit for a few months then be on your way?

Like I said, if your case is so strong, and people want so badly to give you their coins... why would there need to be coin rules to make sure they go to you as opposed to people just keeping them?

 

[Cythe]

Never said it was a rule, and honestly, I wouldn't mind putting that in effect. As a matter of fact, I'd have no problem testing it, because I know quite a few people(More than 10) have been cheering the idea on and offering to hand over any 100 coins they get just for the sake of seeing the upgrade happen.

The general feel in the shell seems to be that aside from it being a group accomplishment, I'm not just some random shell hopper than started donating 1 mil for runs to net coins..I lead them, I cheer them on, I manage them, and I get them wins. Obviously it's a group thing, but I don't lurk in the shadows while hording coins...I ride at the front with my weapon drawn, headlong into the challenge of the zones. I think this is part of the reason the shell respects that if anyone was to get the upgrade, I'd be a good candidate. Like I said, I never did bestow the privledge on myself, my shell did. It continues to grow, prosper, win, and have an overall good time...So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume most of the people in it are indeed just fine with the way the coins go.

Honestly, your idea is a good one, and as said before, maybe I will test the waters with that one. Besides, it wouldn't do any harm. Relic weapon or no relic weapon, I'll keep leading them because I get a kick out of Dynamis. It's a lot of fun to me. That's why I really go, not just for the upgrade.

 

[Firestreak]

You're not really adjusting to inflation. Coins were 5k 2 years ago, but 1 mill meant a lot more. 1 million gil got you what, a cassie earring? If you want to give out 2 cassie earrings a week in value and then take all the coins, you aren't coming out ahead. But then I don't recall seeing so many willing volunteers then as now. But now, any shell basically, first run, I'd wager my 1 mill they'll pull more than that's value in coins back. Kind of silly to ignore inflation to try and hint that coins should still = 5k. 5k was worth more than 5k now.

 

[Firestreak]

If you want to talk about the concept of group effort you'll have to bear with me for a moment here cause I'm about to speak in absolutes, and reality is shades. This is just a talk about concepts, and to clear from any notion of this being a flame we'll be dealing completely hypothetically, with me, as if I'm upgrading my relic staff.

First off, I do all that leadership stuff, out there every run, with my staff drawn, yada yada yada. But then so do many of my members. Far more are there every run than I could possibly get a level 4 weapon.

But let's examine the concept of the group goal for a minute here.

Let us pretend for a moment, all your coins were attained from one dynamis LS. You bought nothing from Battalia bazaars. In the period of 100 runs, you get all the coins you need.

You spend 100 million total on all the runs buying glass.

You get, let's say 900 million in coins, all to you, or, if you would prefer, to your "linkshell" for the level 4 weapon.

Now on the other hand, if those coins were all suddenly sold, and 50 people at the end of that year got 16 million a piece each, is 50 people getting 16 mill a pop less of a group effort than that 1 person getting a sword?

Most of you would say, 16 million gil in 1 year is pretty shitty. It's not worth it.

Well duh, it's not worth it, but it's still your 16 mill that you earned in the process of a year of AF2 hunting. I'm not really convinced I'm happier with the knowledge some guy gets a sword versus me and my 50 shellmages getting 16 mill. I doubt you could make the argument that the shell was actually stronger versus whatever gear upgrades people could get with that.

Or if all 50 members want their relic.. they will all simply be, 1/50 of the way closer. The other 49/50 I'm sure they could find better ways to get.than selling coins.

Just a thought expirament really, why focus all on 1 guy to = accomplishment?

And this is all just side stuff. You could never get people to do dynamis for 100k a run of course.if AF2 wasn't involved. But then, I doubt you could get someone to do Dynamis just to upgrade someone else's weapon if AF2 wasn't involved. So no point trying to point out how little the gil is.

I think the point of LSes is simply to help people with things they can't do themselves. And technically, you can get all your coins yourself. I don't think my Dynamis LS should upgrade my relic staff any more than I think my sky LS should buy me Cursed Mitts -1. We need to work together to accomplish some goals but that doesn't mean we have to always function as a group and lose our individual goals. Cause as you said, you log off, you do stuff, you don't think about FF. You don't live in some sort of hive mind,
You may work together 6 hours a week but the rest of the time you all have your own goals.

Edit in: I'll also point out. That 16 mill they'd all get, 16 mill on your own person you know will benefit you. Sword benefits them all for as long as you stay in linkshell. There's no guarantee you can give you stay that it's possible to hold you to after you get the item. Most people after they get what they want feel like they're doing you a favor by not leaving. Their attitudes change districtively and they'll often leave over what they wouldn't have previously. Why go out of your way to make yourself at a person's total disposal?

 

[Pompidou]

The message I'm getting from many here is: "If you want your fair share of the rewards, you're in Dynamis for the wrong reasons. Lot your occasional AF2 and give everything else to me."

 

[metachronism]

1) relic upgraders need to be involved with Dynamis longer than af2 lotters
2) af2 lotters have no reason to be in the shell once they're 5/5 unless they're there to help
3) people will finish af2 faster than relics
4) af2s are a resource unique to Dynamis
5) there are a lot more af2 lotters than relic upgraders

The deduction you can draw from these facts:

A) by #1, the relic upgraders should be in some leadership position of the LS--as they are to be core members. They should codify the ancient currency policy.

B) by #2, and #3, shells should be enrollment-by-will. members should be free to leave at any point. The leaders (the upgraders) need to realize the fact that they're going to be in Dynamis way longer than most people, and that they can't expect to be finishing the relic surrounded entirely by people who started out at the same time. Recruiting is a pain in the butt, but you have to keep doing it as people leave.

C) by #4, if you (af2 lotter) feel that you are getting ripped off, you're in the wrong shell, or perhaps Dynamis isn't for you. This is a simple matter of opportunity cost.

D) by #5, if you (af2 lotter) are not alone in feeling that you are getting ripped off, remember that there are a lot more of you than the relic upgraders. Why don't you gather all of your sympathizers and negotiate, or if you have near-unanimity, just leave the shell and re-form a new one? Losing a few people (the upgraders) won't hurt you guys that much.

I hate to make this analogy, but it's like an employer-unionized employee relationship. If the employee (af2 lotter) has some complaints about the employer (upgraders), they can leave, or exercise the power of the majority and force some changes. Just as well, the employers (upgraders) need to continually replace posts which inevitably become vacant (whatever the cause may be) over the course of the venture.

 

[Pompidou]

I don't really have issues with one person getting all the coins if it's what the LS wants. I have issues with "then maybe Dynamis isn't for you". If people stopped at "then maybe you're in the wrong LS" they'd be right. Everyone should join an LS with rules they're happy with. But "Dynamis isn't for you" because you want an equal chance at the rewards Dynamis has to offer? That's ludicrous. Noone says: "If you're not willing to let the pt leader lot all the beastman seals, then maybe EXP parties aren't for you", because they know it's a foolish statement. Pick the right LS. That's about as best a recourse as there is.

 

[Rones]

Your flaming is not welcome here, and telling me that I shouldn't be able to get help with one of the only things I want help getting in this game simply because it means nothing to YOU is an opinion I don't think many people share.

Just reread all of Lavis post and I can't find anything worthy of calling a flame. Even her e-peen comment was directed at herself. She's entitled to her opinions just as you are as long as she doesn't personally attack you, which I haven't seen. They can attack your actions, your ideas, and your decisions all they want as long as they don't attack the person.

Lavi used reason and logic in her arguments. Try responding with that rather than trying to scare them away.

 

[Odon]

Your flaming is not welcome here,

LOL...

 

[Uzor]

I lead them, I cheer them on, I manage them, and I get them wins

No, you don't get them their wins, the people in it get yhemselves their wins. Don't try to paint yourself all high and mighty, because leading the LS to a win is NOT that hard. So unless you solo the area for your LS, don't say you are getting them their wins. I lead a Dynamis LS myself, and I would NEVER say I get my LS their wins, that's entirely all my LS's work together. The puller, the tanks, the mages sleeping and silencing and nuking, and the melees meleeing the right stuff. The stonevokers voking stuff off the BLMes, the kiters kiting Hydras etc. Its all my LS's work, not mine. Not yours in your LS either. Everyone contribute to the win, and its quite honestly unfair of you to take all the credit by saying "I get them wins".

Either way, back to the coin issue. I personally wouldn't trust Decidence, but I will not go there as to why, as that would be personal attacks. I would much rather get my 5 coins a run and sell them for 35k each, as that pays for the runs, the medicines used in it, and food used it it, practically making Dynamis free for everyone.

Thing is, people don't do Dynamis for the coins alone, no one said they did. What we're saying is that getting a coin is paying for the entrance fee, getting more then one also pays for the food. I'm sure you wouldn't pass on monetary drops in a exp party that pays for your food, and you not doing so wouldn't make the other members say you're exping for the wrong reason (as Firestreak said earlier).

Its practically the same thing, you don't exp for gil. You don't do Dynamis for gil. However, going out with a profit (however small it is) is always a bonus, whether its a large one or not doesn't matter.

 

[Lavi]

Sky's got a lot of shells where the leader uses the members and the LS bank to benefit their pocket. Some have used the bank to fund crafting, others just to get the best gear with no actual work. So what's your point? Different setting, same problem. So it's ok in dynamis to work for one person, but not in sky? Tomorrow, I am gonna start a new shell. I'll call it "CashCow" and I'm going to invite Cythe, Marajade, Ellemire, Decidence and all the rest of you. You can all farm pop NMs and kill the gods, I'll orchestrate the entire thing (it's really hard) and when we get drops, you can all keep the rare/ex abjs/god gear, but all sellable items go to me to sell so I can use them to further myself until I have a fully upgraded e-peen. Deal?

No one offereded to join my new shell, I take offense and think you are all flaming me... But seriously. No one even responded to this. Why is it wrong for me (and I know for a fact you'd all agree that making a shell for like this IS wrong) to make a sky shell that functions like this, but a dynamis shell that functions in the exact same manner is ok?

And this is getting really old. If you start to lose a debate or take offense at something that wasn't even inflamatory about you, although it was meant to annoy you a little, don't call it flaming. You are crying wolf because you can't handle the debate and it's getting old, fast. If you don't want to participate in the debate, fine, leave the forum, but don't think for a moment you can run to Sculli have my post deleted or edited so you can win your debate. That's just weak and you need to get lost if this is how you think the forums are going to work. No kidding around. GTFO. You want to call that a flame, then maybe it is, but it's time you woke up and realized someone disagreeing with you does not constitute a flame.

Side Note: No one even laughed at my LS name? /cry ; ;

 

[Lavi]

Fyi, nobody does Dynamis FOR gil, so stop making that point.

The question is what to do with the gil that is made in the process. I haven't really heard any arguments as to why one person deserves it all, nor have I heard any arguments for how supporting a person to level 4 will benefit the shell's strength versus throwing 100s of millions of gil at the members to collectively buy gear.

No one does dynamis directly for gil, correct, but it does make or break whether a person may continue dynamis or not. As a dynamis member, I have yet to recieve a single piece of relic gear in 4+ months now and it's very excrutiating to constantly lose lots and be no closer to obtaining a piece when I started. Someone else obtaining a relic could mean I am closer since they will not be lotting in the future, but given the retention rate of dynamis members, you need to constantly recruit due to players leaving for whatever reason. So me making a 100k isn't an exceptional amount for 3+ hrs of effort, but it seems to make losing a lot on relic gear a whole lot more bearable than walking away with nothing. By the way, in those 4 months of which I have only missed 3-4 runs, I have amassed somewhere around 70-80 coins, which would sell for roughly 3 million (some coins sold during the 50k high and others sold at 35k) and a 100 coin for 3.5 million I believe. Granted for the ~100 hrs spent in dynamis, 6.5 million isn't a huge amount, but all end game content works out to about the same gil/hourly work.

 

[Firestreak]

1) relic upgraders need to be involved with Dynamis longer than af2 lotters
2) af2 lotters have no reason to be in the shell once they're 5/5 unless they're there to help
3) people will finish af2 faster than relics
4) af2s are a resource unique to Dynamis
5) there are a lot more af2 lotters than relic upgraders

1) Everyone should be involved with the shell until the shell is finished.
2) Af2 lotters once they're finished with Dynamis should be in the shell getting other people their AF2 because the other people got them their AF2.
3) People will level more jobs in the process of getting relic, thus getting more AF2.
4) But not unique to Dynamis LS that sponsor people's relics.
5) And those relic upgraders also are lotting AF2, or they already got their AF2. If you find a person with no AF2, not asking to lot AF2 at all, just wanting the night's coins... well maybe you got an argument there.

The deduction you can draw from these facts:

A) by #1, the relic upgraders should be in some leadership position of the LS--as they are to be core members. They should codify the ancient currency policy.

B) by #2, and #3, shells should be enrollment-by-will. members should be free to leave at any point. The leaders (the upgraders) need to realize the fact that they're going to be in Dynamis way longer than most people, and that they can't expect to be finishing the relic surrounded entirely by people who started out at the same time. Recruiting is a pain in the butt, but you have to keep doing it as people leave.

C) by #4, if you (af2 lotter) feel that you are getting ripped off, you're in the wrong shell, or perhaps Dynamis isn't for you. This is a simple matter of opportunity cost.

D) by #5, if you (af2 lotter) are not alone in feeling that you are getting ripped off, remember that there are a lot more of you than the relic upgraders. Why don't you gather all of your sympathizers and negotiate, or if you have near-unanimity, just leave the shell and re-form a new one? Losing a few people (the upgraders) won't hurt you guys that much.

A) People should be in leadership based on loyalty and longevity in the shell, not based on who gets coins.

B) People will leave for any reason, sometimes because they have their gear, sometimes because they're not getting their gear, sometimes because real life concerns, sometimes cause they're sick of dynamis. The only difference with relic upgraders is you're giving them a huge monetary incentive to stay, which when they're done is gone and they are just as likely to leave as anyone.

C) There are more important reasons to be in a shell than the coin drops, for most people. For myself being able to go on monday and thursday is the greatest thing, being that my previous shell nearly a year ago ran on saturday night. Now I'd prefer my saturday night free over 100k. I also doubt many people would say they have many qualms about giving up 100k per night based on being twice as likely to get AF2, for whatever reason.(even as simple as because there are half as many lotters for one's specific job) It doesn't make it fair as a concept. If I had a particulary efficient LS that every run killed every mob in Xarcabard and got 20 AF2 to drop, I bet I could charge every member 100k to come and they would accept, it doesn't mean the system is fair.

I think if someone is taking all the coins, at this point, they have more than just the entrance fee they should handle. I think they should buy food for every member. They should get people reraise pins as theirs run out from Dynamis to Dynamis.

This would do 2 things.

1) People wouldn't lose money on Dynamis.
2) With everyone having RR pin for sure, and everyone having food for sure, then the run will be more successful. More AF2 will drop, more 1 coins will drop for the guy, making it possibly still profitable.

But now people are talking about how great sponsorers were back 2 years ago, when that 1 mill actually meant something. That 1 mill was 4 mill today. Put that into a dynamis run. Let's see who would have the balls to actually make the same risk now as then. This would actually increase AF2 drops because it would ensure every member has RR and food the whole time.

 

[Bajaratt]

No one does dynamis directly for gil, correct, but it does make or break whether a person may continue dynamis or not. As a dynamis member, I have yet to recieve a single piece of relic gear in 4+ months now and it's very excrutiating to constantly lose lots and be no closer to obtaining a piece when I started. Someone else obtaining a relic could mean I am closer since they will not be lotting in the future, but given the retention rate of dynamis members, you need to constantly recruit due to players leaving for whatever reason. So me making a 100k isn't an exceptional amount for 3+ hrs of effort, but it seems to make losing a lot on relic gear a whole lot more bearable than walking away with nothing. By the way, in those 4 months of which I have only missed 3-4 runs, I have amassed somewhere around 70-80 coins, which would sell for roughly 3 million (some coins sold during the 50k high and others sold at 35k) and a 100 coin for 3.5 million I believe. Granted for the ~100 hrs spent in dynamis, 6.5 million isn't a huge amount, but all end game content works out to about the same gil/hourly work.

So because you haven't gotten much from dynamis you don't like that some people have others willing to help them out? You found a linkshell whose rules you agree with, why is it so hard to believe that other people could possibly agree with upgrading someone's relic weapon? When it became a democratic decision of the linkshell and that's how they decided, how is that wrong? You're not speaking for anyone but yourself when you're saying they need to change how the linkshell works; because the linkshell members voted on what to do and they got what they wanted. Didn't Firestreak's members want to use their coins to upgrade a relic weapon, so he's doing it even though he has reservations about that method?

Yeah, we could let the coins auto drop and then everyone trades them to the upgrader at the end, but at the same time, having the upgrader and any designated members lotting the coins saves members from that effort. I'd occasionally get a spare ancient coin in loveless, and I hated having to carry it around until I was able to give it to Kisada. It was generally my fault because I'd forget to give it to him right after the run so I had to carry the damn thing around, but still annoying. That was 1 less inventory space that I had, and I usually didn't have much free space to begin with.

Also, Lavi was specifically targetting Cythe with his post, which is probably where Decidence saw a flame. Instead of an intellectual discussion on how a linkshell could be run and it's fairness, Lavi was telling Cythe to change how he runs his shell.

 

[Firestreak]

I believe the reason you'll see the majority vote for the sponsor system is this.

1) Usually it's what the leaders want.

In the linkshells that agree to it.. Meta's, Cythe's - they agree that they want it. In the one's that don't, Peregrine's, Uzors, the leaders don't want it. They do it their way, nobody really complains either way.

In mine, I don't agree with it, but there are more important things to me. I refused to run the coin system, Kireek does. As far as I can tell Kireek's system is fair at sponsoring can be. Yet again, the system was put forth as the leadership's position, people followed.

2) Majority over minority.

I think it's fair for the majority of people to agree they should give their coins to an upgrader. I don't see why that then means they have the right to speak for the minority who don't believe that way.

 

[Bajaratt]

I believe the reason you'll see the majority vote for the sponsor system is this.

1) Usually it's what the leaders want.

In the linkshells that agree to it.. Meta's, Cythe's - they agree that they want it. In the one's that don't, Peregrine's, Uzors, the leaders don't want it. They do it their way, nobody really complains either way.

In mine, I don't agree with it, but there are more important things to me. I refused to run the coin system, Kireek does. As far as I can tell Kireek's system is fair at sponsoring can be. Yet again, the system was put forth as the leadership's position, people followed.

2) Majority over minority.

I think it's fair for the majority of people to agree they should give their coins to an upgrader. I don't see why that then means they have the right to speak for the minority who don't believe that way.

When there's no one in the linkshell speaking out against the coin distribution it's harder to believe that there are people who truely want coins to auto-drop. I'm sure there are probably a few people who don't like the method, but if they never say anything about it, no one will ever know and a resolution can never be reached. If no one's speaking out, then it's reasonable to assume that either people agree or they just don't care.