Enfeeblingz! Mnd Vs Int

wolfskymoon

wolfskymoon

Genkai Conqueror
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Well this is something in game that i'm unclear of.Some people say that int effects all debuffs and mnd effects how long they last.But according to others mnd effects "Whm enfeeble spellzors" like paralyze.And int effects blm ones like sleep.So! which one is right? also i won't mind a list of which enfeeb is effected by which stat
 
MND effects spells like Paralyze, Silence and Slow. INT effects Gravity, Blind and Sleep. Actual Enfeebling skill is better than either raw stat if you can get items that increase it.
 
Neyla said:
MND effects spells like Paralyze, Silence and Slow. INT effects Gravity, Blind and Sleep. Actual Enfeebling skill is better than either raw stat if you can get items that increase it.
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it depends though. Early on, Enfeebling > INT/MND

At 75 though, when you rarely RARELY get resisted in a exp situation, I'd prefer MND or INT. So basically, if you dont get resisted, you might want to favour MND over enfeebling.
 
Uzor said:
it depends though. Early on, Enfeebling > INT/MND

At 75 though, when you rarely RARELY get resisted in a exp situation, I'd prefer MND or INT. So basically, if you dont get resisted, you might want to favour MND over enfeebling.
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True at 75, but he's not even close. Besides, it's far easier to find MND and INT armor early on. I don't think enfeebling skill bonuses come into play until the level 50 JSE, which means a subligar run.
 
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I'm pretty sure the MND stat plays a significant role in overcoming resistance for white magic debuffs.

It's been a couple years since I raised a WHM up to 40, but I remember a RDM posting on a WHM forum saying WHMs should never cast debuffs when there's a RDM in the party who can do it better because of the higher skillcap. When I told him my WHM had never had a debuff resisted for the last 15 levels of XP parties, he said I was either a liar or my chat filters were on too tight, because his RDM kept getting debuffs resisted frequently. A few other posters backed me up, though, and we realized what we all had in common was that we were decked out in +MND gear, whereas his RDM had to compromise between MND, INT, and MP. On the other hand, my INT was not as fortunate, and I saw several resistances when I attempted to use anything like Sleep, Shock, or Burn from my BLM sub.

The RDM in my static party complimented me wonderfully by subbing BLM, loading more on +INT gear, and throwing out the BLM-based debuffs while I took care of the WHM-based ones. Between the two of us, we had everything under the sun stuck to the mob before the melee could say "skillchain."
 
Here's a good way to check this stuff.. if it's listed under white magic in teh AH MND improves it, if it's listed as black magic, go for int.
 
Blackchaoshero said:
Here's a good way to check this stuff.. if it's listed under white magic in teh AH MND improves it, if it's listed as black magic, go for int.
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Yep, that's how I do it. If you want to use staves instead of wands look at the color of the dot to the left of the spell on the menu to determine which element it is.
 
I've always had macros for "MaxMP" and "MaxInt" as I have named them in my blm macro banks. At various levels, changing equipment could swing my Int by 30+ points. (This isn't as true currently since more of my gear is +Magic Attack or +Elemental). Back in the day however, I'd start with all the +MP gear on and cast all the debuffs, then switch to +Int and start nuking when it was time. Initially, if I got resisted on a debuff, I'd try casting it again after changing to +Int gear.

I stopped being so anal about it, after I noticed it made no difference what-so-ever in resist rates. Once my Enfeebling or Elemental skill increased after gaining a level, I'd see a huge difference casting on the same mobs. This is observational, hardly a scientific study, but I have a few thousand trials under my belt.

If you dig through the archives of the FFVault, you'll find a series of posts by a poster calling himself the Progenetor. He did take the time to carefully study the effects of +Int and +Elemental skill on resist rates and damage of nukes. This was back when the game was still just a few weeks old to us NA's. He conclusively showed that +Int only effects the damage of nukes, and has no effect on resist rates; he also showed that +Elemental skill works exactly opposite.

SE has been pretty consistent on things like this, so it's a reasonable position to say that the same applies to enfeebles. Just reasonable, certainly not iron-clad. If anyone can prove otherwise with some real data, I'd be interested. I just don't care enough to do it myself^^.
 
Very useful posts Blowy.

No mention is made of resist rates (which is the only thing I discussed), and it's possible that the stats have no effect on that. If so, then this is exactly like nukes and Elemental skill in that the attributes have no effect on resist rates but instead effect the actual effectiveness of the spell.

The increase in effectiveness with increasing Enfeebling skill may or may not be due to fewer "partial resists" with increasing skill. Most likely it is due to an increase in effectiveness- I seem to remember some official SE statement that RDM's didn't need a second Tier of paralyze and slow like ninjas, because the power of these spells was directly related to Enfeebling skill, and the Ninjutsu abilities were not directly related to Ninjutsu skill. This would of course be distinctly different from Elemental skill if correct.
 
It's a while since I've looked at those posts (I have the bookmarks, but can't open them where I am). There's some good data in them, but it was really soon after NA release and some incorrect conclusions were drawn from the data. The raw data came from a JP site as well (which is now gone), and there were some translation issues too...

Since then it has been shown that Enfeebling Skill affects resist rates only and has no effect on enfeebling strength (very similar to Elemental skill), and that INT/MND affect the strength of variable strength enfeebles (Black/White respectively). It's also believed that INT/MND do have a affect on resist rates but that it's nowhere near as significant as that of Enfeebling Skill, and with the large variations in resist rates anyway, it's been difficult to show conclusively either way.

Slow has been measured to follow the formula
%Slow = ~13.8 + ((MND(caster)-MND(mob))*0.2)
with a cap of 30% slowed at a difference of 81 MND.
Enfeebling Skill, Magic Attack, and Elemental staves have been shown to have no effect on the amount slowed.

Partial resists, if they occur, seem to be likely to only affect duration of enfeebling spells. Slow, for example, when cast with the same gear on the same mob, will always be the same strength. You don't get an effect where the mob is slowed by a lesser amount (as when you see a damage reduction on an nuke when it's resisted).
 
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annabelle said:
I'm pretty sure the MND stat plays a significant role in overcoming resistance for white magic debuffs.

It's been a couple years since I raised a WHM up to 40, but I remember a RDM posting on a WHM forum saying WHMs should never cast debuffs when there's a RDM in the party who can do it better because of the higher skillcap. When I told him my WHM had never had a debuff resisted for the last 15 levels of XP parties, he said I was either a liar or my chat filters were on too tight, because his RDM kept getting debuffs resisted frequently. A few other posters backed me up, though, and we realized what we all had in common was that we were decked out in +MND gear, whereas his RDM had to compromise between MND, INT, and MP. On the other hand, my INT was not as fortunate, and I saw several resistances when I attempted to use anything like Sleep, Shock, or Burn from my BLM sub.

The RDM in my static party complimented me wonderfully by subbing BLM, loading more on +INT gear, and throwing out the BLM-based debuffs while I took care of the WHM-based ones. Between the two of us, we had everything under the sun stuck to the mob before the melee could say "skillchain."
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reason you get resist with spells like burn and shock is because they are elemental base not enfeb.
 
If you can find links to Enfeeble skill/stat testing, I'd be interested in reading up on it, as I always thought my WHM's debuff success was due to my massive +MND. Then again, if MND shared a relationship with Enfeebling Skill in the same way STR works with Attack, then +15-20 MND is probably significant for level 40.
 
annabelle said:
If you can find links to Enfeeble skill/stat testing, I'd be interested in reading up on it, as I always thought my WHM's debuff success was due to my massive +MND. Then again, if MND shared a relationship with Enfeebling Skill in the same way STR works with Attack, then +15-20 MND is probably significant for level 40.
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this would be very possible because all enfeb that whm get are mnd base. Also mnd/int give more potency to the spell not just resistance factor.
 
I can state from my experience playing BLM to 37 that stacking on an obscene amount of +INT really does reduce resistance, at least to some extent.

I subbed NIN (Yes, I know, I sacrificed other aspects of the job knowingly and only did so when the rest of the party could compensate accordingly) to equip as much INT as possible.

Two +5 INT Wands, Seer's Crown +1, Black Silk Neckerchief, two Morion Earrings, Morion Tathlum, Baron's Saio, Garrison Gloves, two Eremite's Ring +1, Black Cape +1, Shaman's Belt, Seer's Slacks +1, and Garrison Boots.

Total +INT after using a Melon Pie was +36, not very far away from my base INT. I found that my resist rates were dramatically lower than other BLMs I partied with on occasion, and the Elemental "enfeebles" burn/choke/drown etc never got resisted at all unless I didn't see my Food effect wear off.

Maybe the effect of higher +INT/+MND on resistance isn't that great until you can overwhelm your target; I'm honestly not sure either way. I can, however, give my testimony that resistance IS affected by straight up INT... at least for Elemental Magic.
 
Tagrineth said:
Maybe the effect of higher +INT/+MND on resistance isn't that great until you can overwhelm your target; I'm honestly not sure either way. I can, however, give my testimony that resistance IS affected by straight up INT... at least for Elemental Magic.
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Sorry, this has been disproven with good, controlled studies on other web communities. I did the exact same thing as you and came to the opposite conclusion with just "observational study" nearly 2 years ago. But I'll take posts with good investigational technique over my or anyone else's testimonials any day of the week.
 
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