Evasion Confusion

K

Kea

Red Hot Mage™
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Okay, this is starting to get to me now. For a very long time I have been clueless as to the details of Evasion. I think I may have asked on here before but, it obviously didn't stick in my head.

It is my understanding that "Evasion Skill" being that which increases the chances of an opponent missing you, can be capped and optionally meritted, however, I just cannot get my head around the "Evasion". Specifically, the attribute to which, a lot of equipment adds toward or takes away from.

That said, I understand that skill is always regarded foremost before any other statistic or attribute, but I am particularly confused about "Evasion" that is something I consider highly as I play and plan solo a lot.

I have recenly chosen "Decreased Physical Damage Taken" over "Evasion". It feels like a good choice to me seeing as my "Evasion Skill" is now capped. But should I continue with "Evasion"?

What is the difference or relationship between "Evasion Skill" and "Evasion"?

Love, Kea

P.S. Please, sensible and experienced reponses only. Leave speculation to another thread - I would like definative answers to my query please. Also, try and avoid arguements please - make this a nice read. :)
 
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It's kinda hard to explain. Think of a bucket of water. Evasion fills it, and evasion skills is it's size. Skill will lower the gap between you and mobs of a higher level, while evasion will improve your overall evasion rate.

It's a pain to explain. Skill raises your absolute evasion % while evasion fills in that %.
 
Blabj said:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Evasion
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Yeah that website, doesn't explain a lot nor does it answer my query. :)

EDIT: Unless I understand it like this:

Overall = Natural Evasion Skill (levelled/capped) + (AGI /2) + Evasion equipment modifiers?

Do we all have base Evasion added to that equasion or is that skill?
 
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It's basically another check in the combat formulae.

Evasion Skill vs. Weapon-type Skill
Evasion vs. Accuracy
Dexterity vs. Agility

et cetera, et cetera.
 
The thing is, my Evasion is capped as a Red Mage and I have some equipment I use to increase my "Evasion Skill" a bit more when I am actually in close-combat and not casting.

Currently, I use an Assault Jerkin during close-combat - I sold off my Scorpion Harness for a bit of extra money and because I no longer beleived inceased Evasion did anything for me.

Is this true? I know that the Jerkin does not provide increased Evasion but that isn't why I use it, which raises another question query:

Assault Jerkin vs. Scorpion Harness

If, you guys prove to me that Evasion is something worth investing into, I shall get a Harness back and also make more use of my Optical Hat.

I'm talking with Avesta about this also, and he chose "Physical Damage Taken -%" over "Evasion" but also balanced it up, but my translation of his reasons for this is not accurate.

I'm just really confused about the whole Evasion thing ; ;
 
I had this exact same question, so I want to make sure I'm understanding you right, Skaw.

If your eva skill > your opponent's weapon skill, you evade more
If your opponent has crap accuracy and you have high +EVA, you'll get hit less.
and
If your opponent has low DEX compared to your high AGI, you'll get his less.

But if that is the case, shouldn't you just stack +EVA since mobs will be a/a+ capped weapon skill at whatever they use? Or is it also like what Acutie said and that +EVA gear will start to become worthless at a certain point because your EVA skill isn't high enough and you're just overfilling the "bucket"?

Or am I making this way more complicated than it needs to be? >.< I'm a math person, so I like Kea's formula. For the purpose of selecting gear, how do you compare your result from the formula to the mobs you'll be fighting to know when you have too little, enough, or evasion overkill? Then again, that formula basically makes evasion skill = evasion.
 
Arianelle said:
Then again, that formula basically makes evasion skill = evasion.
Click to expand...

Thats what confuses me ; ; Is "Evasion Skill" indeed, "Evasion" at the end of the day?
 
i believe that :
  1. evasion skill is your ability to evade an attack. the higher the skill, the higher accuracy attacks you can evade. THF can evade IT+++ mob attacks.
  2. evasion is your probability of actually evading an attack (within your skill level). DRK wearing lots of eva down gear can get hit by a too-weak bunny.

increasing evasion will help you evade lower accuracy attacks more often.
increasing evasion skill will give you the ability to evade higher accuracy attacks. (how often depends on evasion).
 
Oropher said:
i believe that :
  1. evasion skill is your ability to evade an attack. the higher the skill, the higher accuracy attacks you can evade. THF can evade IT+++ mob attacks.
  2. evasion is your probability of actually evading an attack (within your skill level). DRK wearing lots of eva down gear can get hit by a too-weak bunny.
increasing evasion will help you evade lower accuracy attacks more often.
increasing evasion skill will give you the ability to evade higher accuracy attacks. (how often depends on evasion).
Click to expand...

Thanks Oropher, though, perhaps I am a little odd but in my head I seem to work out; the probability and ability of an "evade" is the same.

For example, if your skill is low, you lack the ability to evade a hit. If evasion is low, you'll probably not evade a hit. Aren't they the same out come?

I think I'm understanding it as:

Evasion Skill - How well one evades (strength).
Evasion - How often/fast one evades (frequency).
 
The reason he probably chooses Damage down gear, as a posed to Evasion gear is because, as much as you'll evade a HNM's attack, when they do hit you (even with as much evasion gear as you can find, they still have high accuracy) they will one hit your stoneskin, and then start taking 300 damage chunks out of your HP whilst you try to recast Utsusemi.

Factoring in every piece of damage down gear for a red mage, you can hit the 50% damage reduction cap (this has been proved many times, by simple tests on cactuars, waiting for them to use 1000 needles) The damage down is a fail safe way of keeping your ass from facing up in the air and you tasting cold dirt.

Given that you only have 60 slots, it is a tough choice to make, as you can't carry a full set of dark steel gear, terra's staff, jelly ring et cetera, et cetera, along with all you evasion gear. It's a choice you have to make, on whether you feel confident that you have enough gear & skill to make sure your Utsusemi & Stoneskin never go down (in which case, Evasion gear all the way) or whether the mob you're fighting is a fast, double attacking brute who'll rip through your shadows at the first chance you give him (in which case, Damage %- and Interruption %- is your friend, however, you probably wouldn't want to straight up tank something like this, kiting would probably be a better option :p )

Edit:

Assault Jerkin
-1% HP: Eh, it's not that noticeable, but it's still a negative stat none the less.
Accuracy +3: Scorpion Harness has better accuracy.
Attack +18: Scorpion Harness offers no attack bonuses, however with heightened accuracy, it could mean the difference between a few missed hits and a few landed hits, which could make up for the damage difference of the attack.

Scorpion Harness
+20 HP: Bonus, better than -1% atleast.
Resist Stats: Not worth the space they take up on the equip's description, to be honest.
Accuracy +10: Better than 3, see above.
Evasion +10: Survivability is now factored in, this could mean the difference between evading an attack or not, so it's worth having.

I always solo on RDM with my SH on, till I get a duelist's tabard which I can swap in for the fast cast effect on, for utsusemi recasts & to aid my timing of the spell. The SH is a fundamentally better piece of gear for soloing in, it offers more survivability stats than the AJ, and it doesn't exactly break the bank if you need to buy one. Definitely worth a look in to macro in and out of your Enfeebling Gear to land enfeebles on NMs.
 
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lets try this.

look at your sword skill for example. when you check a mob with it equiped it mods depend on your weapon skill lvl as in reguards to the mobs lvl. thats why it it mods vary. ++, +-, -+, -- and so fourth. ok now i would think your evasion skill is along the same lines. just like Skaw said.

you also have to remember RDM's natural evasion skill lvl is very low. like E rank i think. so in your case i think a SH would have done better in your case cause you dont have a high natural skill. i think capped rdm evasion at 75 is on par with like a 62 nin or thf.
 
You can compare it to combat skills.

Sword Skill, as an example. Evasion Skill is the skill itself, while evasion is the sub-skill that's not quite as effective. Sword Skill is the skill itself, while Attack is the sub skill that's not quite as effective.

The reason Avesta chose physical damage reduced isn't neccesarily because its the most effective always. Its because RDM have a horrible evasion skill as it is. So relying on Phsical damage taken - is more effective, since no ammount of evasion will make you evade enough to make it usefull as RDM. Thus, relying on physical damage taken reduced is more effective.

NIN's do it the same way actually. While they have shadows up tanking most HNM's, they rely on evasion to avoid being hit. However, if their shadows run out and utsu timer isn't ready yet, they rely on physical damage taken reduced in order to not get hit as hard.

All in all, its rather useless to rely only on evasion skill in order to reduce damage taken, since if you're fighting anything that you need to evade, its accuracy will be rather high anyway.
 
Uzor said:
You can compare it to combat skills.

Sword Skill, as an example. Evasion Skill is the skill itself, while evasion is the sub-skill that's not quite as effective. Sword Skill is the skill itself, while Attack is the sub skill that's not quite as effective.

The reason Avesta chose physical damage reduced isn't neccesarily because its the most effective always. Its because RDM have a horrible evasion skill as it is. So relying on Phsical damage taken - is more effective, since no ammount of evasion will make you evade enough to make it usefull as RDM. Thus, relying on physical damage taken reduced is more effective.

NIN's do it the same way actually. While they have shadows up tanking most HNM's, they rely on evasion to avoid being hit. However, if their shadows run out and utsu timer isn't ready yet, they rely on physical damage taken reduced in order to not get hit as hard.

All in all, its rather useless to rely only on evasion skill in order to reduce damage taken, since if you're fighting anything that you need to evade, its accuracy will be rather high anyway.
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This is true. Most the mobs a rdm would face when soloing the eva would not make a difference do to a lack of base eva. Even with af2 boots, SH, and the 2eva*8 merits(which would not recommend sword or dagger much better merited) we only be 241 eva no wear near that of the mob's acc. Although id still choice SH over AJ or just use Pah. Khazagand (which what I have, AJ on my mannequin) <3 crit hit merits.
 
you cannot merit evasion more than 4 times i think. its not like weapon.

From my thief experience this is what i notice:

tanking VT mobs with 301 evasion skill is hard. even with such high skill its hard to evade. however stacking up +60 evasion gear with that, im able to evade like 75% of merit mobs hits.

So i think its like acutie said, +evasskill is how high you can evade, and+eva will actually make you evade that high.

thats why i laugh when i see a red mage meleeing with a SH. The good point about rdm is their awsome magical defense, and physical as well, with spells like stoneskin and phlanx.
 
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Blabj said:
The reason he probably chooses Damage down gear, as a posed to Evasion gear is because, as much as you'll evade a HNM's attack, when they do hit you (even with as much evasion gear as you can find, they still have high accuracy) they will one hit your stoneskin, and then start taking 300 damage chunks out of your HP whilst you try to recast Utsusemi.

Factoring in every piece of damage down gear for a red mage, you can hit the 50% damage reduction cap (this has been proved many times, by simple tests on cactuars, waiting for them to use 1000 needles) The damage down is a fail safe way of keeping your ass from facing up in the air and you tasting cold dirt.

Given that you only have 60 slots, it is a tough choice to make, as you can't carry a full set of dark steel gear, terra's staff, jelly ring et cetera, et cetera, along with all you evasion gear. It's a choice you have to make, on whether you feel confident that you have enough gear & skill to make sure your Utsusemi & Stoneskin never go down (in which case, Evasion gear all the way) or whether the mob you're fighting is a fast, double attacking brute who'll rip through your shadows at the first chance you give him (in which case, Damage %- and Interruption %- is your friend, however, you probably wouldn't want to straight up tank something like this, kiting would probably be a better option :p )

Edit:

Assault Jerkin
-1% HP: Eh, it's not that noticeable, but it's still a negative stat none the less.
Accuracy +3: Scorpion Harness has better accuracy.
Attack +18: Scorpion Harness offers no attack bonuses, however with heightened accuracy, it could mean the difference between a few missed hits and a few landed hits, which could make up for the damage difference of the attack.

Scorpion Harness
+20 HP: Bonus, better than -1% atleast.
Resist Stats: Not worth the space they take up on the equip's description, to be honest.
Accuracy +10: Better than 3, see above.
Evasion +10: Survivability is now factored in, this could mean the difference between evading an attack or not, so it's worth having.

I always solo on RDM with my SH on, till I get a duelist's tabard which I can swap in for the fast cast effect on, for utsusemi recasts & to aid my timing of the spell. The SH is a fundamentally better piece of gear for soloing in, it offers more survivability stats than the AJ, and it doesn't exactly break the bank if you need to buy one. Definitely worth a look in to macro in and out of your Enfeebling Gear to land enfeebles on NMs.
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Pahluwan-Khazagand.jpg

agian dont forget about this puppy
 
yep thats better than SH :p
 
I've seen Audino with that shit, sexy looking piece.

There is just one thing though about jelly ring and 1k needles for blu its a magic based spell and it deals magical dd for us, wouldn't jelly ring used by a cactuar do more damage because of the +5% magical damage or is that only from a blue mage that you will take 5% more damage?
 
Kea said:
Evasion - How often/fast one evades (frequency).
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exactly. (within your skill limit)

Kea said:
Evasion Skill - How well one evades (strength).
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not exactly how well, but how high (strong/accurate) an attack you COULD evade.

a lvl 1 may never evade an attack from an HNM, no matter how much evasion gear he has, because his eva skill is just too low, and the HNM's skill/accuracy too high.
a lvl 75 could, theoretically, evade an HNM attack due to his higher evasion skill, even with evasion down gear.
 
Oropher said:
exactly. (within your skill limit)


not exactly how well, but how high (strong/accurate) an attack you COULD evade.

a lvl 1 may never evade an attack from an HNM, no matter how much evasion gear he has, because his eva skill is just too low, and the HNM's skill/accuracy too high.
a lvl 75 could, theoretically, evade an HNM attack due to his higher evasion skill, even with evasion down gear.
Click to expand...
actually ive seen lvl 1 evade AV once, so there always a chance:wink: .
 
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