Everyones Needs To See This

Anttaru said:
There were shortages and rising demand in oil from a long while now, when was the last time gasoline was at 60 cents ? And the price is even higher now yes, that's to be expected is it not ?

Iraq has 112 Billion barrels in reserve, it'll pay off in the long run.
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None of which necessitates a war. Inflation-adjusted, gasoline and oil in general were cheaper before the war. That first phrase is important, we operate in an inflationary economy (and the benefits of that fact are something that eluded the makers of this film) and as such, prices tend to increase with time. Gas will most likely never see 60 cents a gallon again, barring some major new technique involved in the aquisition and processing of oil.

The Bush family has always been into the oil business
Iraq's oil is being sold now, and the Bush adminastration handles the money. The Russians and the french at one point were the only ones that were able to refine Iraq oil. It wouldn't be like that in Saddam wasn't dethroned, which makes for a more efficient oil industry.
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Iraq's oil is being sold, yes. The money, however, goes back to Iraq. It doesn't wind up in US coffers. Saddam, unfortunately, made no significant efforts to repair the infrastructure damaged in the first Gulf War, so in fact oil production capacity in Iraq is higher now than it was before the 2nd war.


He was silenced, and that is all there is to it.
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Silenced to prevent him from saying what?


2 decades ago, the US supplied Iraq with hundreads of millions of dollars worth of weapons, as Iraq raged war aginst Iran. Iraq considered the US to be one of their Allies, and it wasn't until Iraq started beef with Saudi Arabia, the tables turned.
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Nope, wrong again. The US never supplied Iraq with weapons. We gave them a handful of helicopters that were converted for military use, and a great deal of aid. Some in the form of food and other essential consumeables, some in the form of good old cash, which Saddam then took and used to buy weapons from the USSR.


The bigger question is, what would happen if the US left Iraq ? Would the Al qaeda continue to kill the people of Iraq, even though they are funded by
10 billion dollars that was suposidly extracted from the food for oil program by Saddam ? Or would things simmer down ?
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The violence in Iraq will most likely continue until such time as they are willing to set aside their religious and political differences and think of themselves as Iraqis first, Sunni/Shia second. Which, sadly, may never happen, and the fact of that matter represents the gravest failing of the Bush administration in prosecuting this war.

Most of the violence in Iraq is organized along religious lines, Iraqi killing Iraqi. One must remember that Iraq, as a country, didn't exist until the 1920s-1930s depending on how you reckon it.
 
Raesvelg said:
Nope, wrong again. The US never supplied Iraq with weapons. We gave them a handful of helicopters that were converted for military use, and a great deal of aid. Some in the form of food and other essential consumeables, some in the form of good old cash, which Saddam then took and used to buy weapons from the USSR.
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Actually you are wrong about this point Raesvelg. During the Iraq vs. Iran war President Reagan made public his support of Iraq in fighting Iran. We supplied weapons, intelligence, economic assistance to Saddam Hussein. After the Islamic Revolultion of Iran and then the U.S. Embassy take over we pretty much did not like Iran anymore. Even the Center for Disease Control sold strains of botulism and anthrax to Saddam Hussein that was initally sugar-coated with "research for the study of vaccines".
 
Rayn said:
Actually you are wrong about this point Raesvelg. During the Iraq vs. Iran war President Reagan made public his support of Iraq in fighting Iran. We supplied weapons, intelligence, economic assistance to Saddam Hussein. After the Islamic Revolultion of Iran and then the U.S. Embassy take over we pretty much did not like Iran anymore. Even the Center for Disease Control sold strains of botulism and anthrax to Saddam Hussein that was initally sugar-coated with "research for the study of vaccines".
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Yes, we supplied support, I never denied that. Pretty much all the material support was in the form I mentioned previously. Our material military sales to Iraq totaled some $200 million, mostly the aforementioned helicopters, and accounted for one percent of the arms sold to Iraq during the relevant period. France, for example, sold some 3 BILLION dollars worth of hardware to Iraq, and the USSR over four times that.

In economic aid, we granted some $5 billion to Iraq by comparison.

As for the CDC issue, it's common knowledge that the CDC will provide samples of just about anything to just about any nation on earth. It's part of what they do, and just about any research request gets granted unless there's a good reason to deny it ahead of time.
 
Raesvelg said:
Yes, we supplied support, I never denied that. Pretty much all the material support was in the form I mentioned previously. Our material military sales to Iraq totaled some $200 million, mostly the aforementioned helicopters, and accounted for one percent of the arms sold to Iraq during the relevant period. France, for example, sold some 3 BILLION dollars worth of hardware to Iraq, and the USSR over four times that.

In economic aid, we granted some $5 billion to Iraq by comparison.

As for the CDC issue, it's common knowledge that the CDC will provide samples of just about anything to just about any nation on earth. It's part of what they do, and just about any research request gets granted unless there's a good reason to deny it ahead of time.
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Sure np.

I was looking at how you said we never supplied "weapons" but still the helicopters were interesting enough to be "weapons". Sure they were not sent as a total package complete with armament but at the very least convertable to carry a payload. It's one thing to say what they are for but another thing as to the potential of a given object.

Another interesting program that we enacted during this war for Iraq was the Bear Cares program instituted by the CIA. The program was basically a surplus of Soviet made ammunition sent to Iraq via the U.S. Yeah we did not directly manufacture them but it is still "supplying weapons".

"If the Bear Spares were manufactured outside the United States, then the United States could arrange for the provision of these weapons to a third country without direct involvement," Howard Teicher former National Security Council offical.
 
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Appearantly the US only sold Helecopters, while the rest of us gave Iraq some other toys

Table of major conventional arms sales to Iraq by country

Country Weapon designation Weapon description Year(s) delivered Quantity delivered
Austria GHN-45 155mm Towed Gun 1983 200
Brazil EMB-312 Tucano Trainer aircraft 1985-1988 80
Brazil Astros II MLRS Multiple rocket launcher 1984-1988 67
Brazil EE-11 Urutu APC 1983-1984 350
Brazil EE-3 Jararaca Recon vehicle 1984-1985 280
Brazil EE-9 Cascavel Armoured car 1980-1989 1026
Brazil Astros AV-UCF Fire control radar 1984-1988 13
Canada PT-6 Turboprop 1980-1990 152
China Xian H-6 Bomber aircraft 1988 4
China F-6 Fighter aircraft 1982-1983 40
China F-7A Fighter aircraft 1983-1987 80
China Type-63 107mm Multiple rocket launcher 1984-1988 100
China Type-83 152mm Towed gun 1988-1989 50
China W-653/Type-653 ARV 1986-1987 25
China WZ-120/Type-59 Tank 1982-1987 1000
China WZ-121/Type 69 Tank 1983-1987 1500
China YW-531/Type-63 APC 1982-1988 650
China CEIEC-408C Air surv radar 1986-1988 5
China HN-5A Portable SAM 1986-1987 1000
China HY-2/SY1A/CSS-N-2 Anti-ship missile 1987-1988 200
Czechoslovakia L-39Z Albatross Trainer/combat aircraft 1976-1985 59
Czechoslovakia BMP-1 Infantry fighting vehicle 1981-1987 750
Czechoslovakia BMP-2 Infantry fighting vehicle 1987-1989 250
Czechoslovakia OT-64C APC 1981 200
Czechoslovakia T-55 Tank 1982-1985 400
Denmark Al Zahraa Landing ship 1983 3
East Germany T-55 Tank 1981 50
Egypt D-30 122mm Towed gun 1985-1989 210
Egypt M-46 130mm Towed gun 1981-1983 96
Egypt RL-21 122mm Multiple rocket launcher 1987-1989 300
Egypt T-55 Tank 1981-1983 300
Egypt Walid APC 1980 100
France Mirage F-1C Fighter aircraft 1982-1990 72
France Mirage F-1E FGA aircraft 1980-1982 36
France SA-312H Super Frelon Helicopter 1981 6
France SA-330 Puma Helicopter 1980-1981 20
France SA-342K/L Gazelle Light helicopter 1980-1988 38
France Super Etendard FGA aircraft 1983 5
France AMX-GCT/AU-F1 Self-propelled gun 1983-1985 85
France AMX-10P Infantry fighting vehicle 1981-1982 100
France AMX-30D ARV 1981 5
France ERC-90 Armoured car 1980-1984 200
France M-3 VTT APC 1983-1984 115
France VCR-TH Tank destroyer 1979-1981 100
France Rasit Ground surv radar 1985 2
France Roland Mobile SAM system 1982-1985 113
France TRS-2100 Tiger Air surv radar 1988 1
France TRS-2105/6 Tiger-G Air surv radar 1986-1989 5
France TRS-2230/15 Tiger Air surv radar 1984-1985 6
France Volex Air surv radar 1981-1983 5
France AM-39 Exocet Anti-ship missile 1979-1988 352
France ARMAT Anti-radar missile 1986-1990 450
France AS-30L ASM 1986-1990 240
France HOT Anti-tank missile 1981-1982 1000
France R-550 Magic-1 SRAAM 1981-1985 534
France Roland-2 SAM 1981-1990 2260
France Super 530F BVRAAM 1981-1985 300
West Germany BK-117 Helicopter 1984-1989 22
West Germany Bo-105C Light Helicopter 1979-1982 20
West Germany Bo-105L Light Helicopter 1988 6
Hungary PSZH-D-994 APC 1981 300
Italy A-109 Hirundo Light Helicopter 1982 2
Italy S-61 Helicopter 1982 6
Italy Stromboli class Support ship 1981 1
Jordan S-76 Spirit Helicopter 1985 2
Poland Mi-2/Hoplite Helicopter 1984-1985 15
Poland MT-LB APC 1983-1990 750
Poland T-55 Tank 1981-1982 400
Poland T-72M1 Tank 1982-1990 500
Romania T-55 Tank 1982-1984 150
Yugoslavia M-87 Orkan 262mm Multiple rocket launcher 1988 2
South Africa G-5 155mm Towed gun 1985-1988 200
Switzerland PC-7 Turbo trainer Trainer aircraft 1980-1983 52
Switzerland PC-9 Trainer aircraft 1987-1990 20
Switzerland Roland APC/IFV 1981 100
United Kingdom Chieftain/ARV ARV 1982 29
United Kingdom Cymbeline Arty locating radar 1986-1988 10
United States Bell 214ST Helicopter 1987-1988 31
United States Hughes-300/TH-55 Light Helicopter 1984 30
United States MD-500MD Defender Light Helicopter 1983 30
United States MD-530F Light Helicopter 1985-1986 26
Soviet Union Il-76M/Candid-B Strategic airlifter 1978-1984 33
Soviet Union Mi-24D/Mi-25/Hind-D Attack helicopter 1978-1984 12
Soviet Union Mi-8/Mi-17/Hip-H Transport helicopter 1986-1987 37
Soviet Union Mi-8TV/Hip-F Transport helicopter 1984 30
Soviet Union Mig-21bis/Fishbed-N Fighter aircraft 1983-1984 61
Soviet Union Mig-23BN/Flogger-H FGA aircraft 1984-1985 50
Soviet Union Mig-25P/Foxbat-A Interceptor aircraft 1980-1985 55
Soviet Union Mig-25RB/Foxbat-B Recon aircraft 1982 8
Soviet Union Mig-29/Fulcrum-A Fighter aircraft 1986-1989 41
Soviet Union Su-22/Fitter-H/J/K FGA aircraft 1986-1987 61
Soviet Union Su-25/Frogfoot-A Ground attack aircraft 1986-1987 84
Soviet Union 2A36 152mm Towed gun 1986-1988 180
Soviet Union 2S1 122mm Self-Propelled Howitzer 1980-1989 150
Soviet Union 2S3 152mm Self-propelled gun 1980-1989 150
Soviet Union 2S4 240mm Self-propelled mortar 1983 10
Soviet Union 9P117/SS-1 Scud TEL SSM launcher 1983-1984 10
Soviet Union BM-21 Grad 122mm Multiple rocket launcher 1983-1988 560
Soviet Union D-30 122mm Towed gun 1982-1988 576
Soviet Union M-240 240mm Mortar 1981 25
Soviet Union M-46 130mm Towed Gun 1982-1987 576
Soviet Union 9K35 Strela-10/SA-13 AAV(M) 1985 30
Soviet Union BMD-1 IFV 1981 10
Soviet Union PT-76 Light tank 1984 200
Soviet Union SA-9/9P31 AAV(M) 1982-1985 160
Soviet Union Long Track Air surv radar 1980-1984 10
Soviet Union SA-8b/9K33M Osa AK Mobile SAM system 1982-1985 50
Soviet Union Thin Skin Air surv radar 1980-1984 5
Soviet Union 9M111/AT-4 Spigot Anti-tank missile 1986-1989 3000
Soviet Union 9M37/SA-13 Gopher SAM 1985-1986 960
Soviet Union KSR-5/AS-6 Kingfish Anti-ship missile 1984 36
Soviet Union Kh-28/AS-9 Kyle Anti-radar missile 1983-1988 250
Soviet Union R-13S/AA2S Atoll SRAAM 1984-1987 1080
Soviet Union R-17/SS-1c Scud-B SSM 1982-1988 840
Soviet Union R-27/AA-10 Alamo BVRAAM 1986-1989 246
Soviet Union R-40R/AA-6 Acrid BVRAAM 1980-1985 660
Soviet Union R-60/AA-8 Aphid SRAAM 1986-1989 582
Soviet Union SA-8b Gecko/9M33M SAM 1982-1985 1290
Soviet Union SA-9 Gaskin/9M31 SAM 1982-1985 1920
Soviet Union Strela-3/SA-14 Gremlin Portable SAM 1987-1988 500

Metal Gear.


EDIT: The numbers at the end is the amount sold to Iraq
 
Metal Gear, it can't be!

The helis sold by the US were all technically non-combat models, and several outright civilian models.

Which sadly didn't prevent Saddam from converting some of them into spraying platforms for chemical weapons and killing a hell of a lot of people.

The Bears Spares program was one of those weird CIA things where most of the money comes from places other than the CIA, if I recall correctly. To be honest, I'm not overly fond of the way that branch of the government does business...
 
When i said Metal Gear, i was referring the entire list of milatant supply in general. Rocket launchers, Tanks, handy pocket tools, weapons, and all kinds of things sold to Iraq.

A bunch of light helicopters isn't considerably leathal in a War, although they weren't used as they were designed to be used induring their services.
 
Antor said:
Just an aside, but I love how most every Canadian I've met "knows" more about the United States and its history than Americans do. Quite honestly it's why I left the place.
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And how many Canadians have you met?? 10? 20? maybe you were popular and met 50 people? Maybe even 100? And you "left the place" cause of the opinions of "most every" of the 100 people? ... LOL ok.... obviously a nation of millions can be generalized by all the canadians that you personally have met.
 
Linhjah said:
I thought Zeitgeist meant "spirit of the time". Zeitgeist was the name of my bestfriend's high school newspaper. My best friend also took 4 years of German, and that is how she explained it to me (this was, of course, years ago). Spirit and ghost can mean the same thing, but in this case, I interpret spirit as:
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Geist can mean both ghost and spirit. Technically we're both right as you can have Geist mean spirit or ghost. Really you could consider the words interchangeable if you really wanted to bust the words down.
 
romperstomper said:
Geist can mean both ghost and spirit. Technically we're both right as you can have Geist mean spirit or ghost. Really you could consider the words interchangeable if you really wanted to bust the words down.
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Given the theme of the film, spirit of the time seems like it fits better to me, but I'm no cunning linguist.
 
I was talking to some yesterday on the phone and they seem to think that documentaries simply pound facts into place. I cant say this documentary is totaly 100% truth ot factually correct.

The way I see it is the truth is like a 10000 piece puzzle honesly ppl how well to expect all 10000 of these pieces to stay in tact over the years. Some of these pieces are destroyed, swaped out, wear due to elements. Which means there are gonna be holes in the puzzle where there may not be any physical proof/evidence that specificly proves anyone thing.

Evidence can be destroyed altered changed around planted, making it very difficult if even possible to find out what really happened. Think alot of these events happened before you were born before your parrents were born even your grandparents. If the government wants something to dissappear they can make it dissappear destroy. Destroy any physical eveidence kill any ppl involved and never speak of it again and because of this some things ppl will never be able to prove. So there willl require alittle puzzle banging to find out the real truth is. But ill also say this the truth makes alot more since that any reality you find your selfliving in today.
 
I was talking to some yesterday on the phone and they seem to think that documentaries simply pound facts into place. I cant say this documentary is totaly 100% truth ot factually correct.

The way I see it is the truth is like a 10000 piece puzzle honesly ppl how well to expect all 10000 of these pieces to stay in tact over the years. Some of these pieces are destroyed, swaped out, wear due to elements. Which means there are gonna be holes in the puzzle where there may not be any physical proof/evidence that specificly proves anyone thing.

Evidence can be destroyed altered changed around planted, making it very difficult if even possible to find out what really happened. Think alot of these events happened before you were born before your parrents were born even your grandparents. If the government wants something to dissappear they can make it dissappear destroy. Destroy any physical eveidence kill any ppl involved and never speak of it again and because of this some things ppl will never be able to prove. So there willl require alittle puzzle banging to find out the real truth is. But ill also say this the truth makes alot more since that any reality you find your selfliving in today.
 
Raesvelg said:
The Bears Spares program was one of those weird CIA things where most of the money comes from places other than the CIA, if I recall correctly. To be honest, I'm not overly fond of the way that branch of the government does business...
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I could not agree more. The CIA is a shady branch of government from all sorts of projects from the use of LSD on military personnel to the participation or planning of political assassinations.

On a seperate note I remember watching the news a few months back at how the Pentagon was trying to research ways of non-harmful weaponry. One of the ideas was using a chemical similar in effects to say Ecstasy. I mean imagine you are an infantry man approaching Iraqi insurgent elements and they run up to unarmed and all they want to do is give you hand massages and light shows. I laughed at the idea but hey the government is has to spend the money somehow amirite? lol
 
Nothing can be more ridiculous than the chemical weapon designed to turn men gay.

Anyway.

The CIA takes realpolitik much further than I'd prefer to see in any US organization. Yes, I realize that it takes a certain level of cynical detachment and dirty tricks to successfully run an espionage arm, but the CIA has historically meddled with affairs and methods I find incredibly distasteful for a variety of reasons.
 
Bit of a necro but I just stumbled upon this movie and it was pretty interesting. Has anyone's views changed or came up with more facts to disprove the information presented?
 
Hmm, i actually dont remember this original post, and am currently only about 6 mins into the movie. Don't remember ever watching this before but it does seem like the premise is interesting. If anything, cant me more than a waste of time. Certainly cant hurt if I listen to in the background of campaigning.
 
I am now extremely interested in this movie. I'm now only 25 mins into the movie. But, it seems to make a lot of sense in reality. Definitely very interesting. I really don't care about religion in general but I do enjoy things that prove it's falseness. Or at least attempt to explain it.

So far, only 1/8 into this movie its doing a fairly good job of making the truth understandable.
 
In the same way that a car has instruments to tell you what the engine is doing, how much gas you have, etc, I have internal instruments that help me when deciding how to deal with the world.

The first is the Ohshitometer. This instrument tells me when whatever I'm doing is about to get me hurt or killed. Alternately, it tells me when what's going on around me is going to get me hurt or killed.

The second is the Bullshitometer. This instrument tells me how close something is to complete and utter bullshit. It also lets me know when my own level of bullshit is reaching dangerous levels (such as when I'm trying to tap-dance an explanation for something I should know but don't).


This movie rated about a 9.0 on my Bullshitometer. If you believed it, you need to get your head examined.

That is all.
 
Well from the posts earlier on this Raes was only one that seemed to had brought counter arguments up do you have any specific point to add or just lolconspiracy theorist?
 
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