Exp whores

Soujiro said:
Vil and Beka, I appreciate your inputs on the Blue mage topic. I already knew all about Attack not influencing blue spells and DoubleAttack not procing with them like it does with WS though. When TAU came out I was interested in BLU and levelled it up to 44. I stopped there and decided I was going to wait for the AF to come out before continueing. When it finally did I had lost interest and haven't touched it really since. When I was levelling it though I did what most decent players do and look up any info and input they can find on forums so yeah I already knew that stuff.

To clear things up, what I was trying to say was that /war should be more total damage than /thf. I am talking about DOT. I won't dispute that a blue spell that stacks with SA or TA will be noticibly more damage than one without. Just like a lvl 30 sam/thf 's SA Tachi: Enpi will be more damage than if he was sam/war or a lvl 70 sam/thf 's SATA Tachi: Gekko will be more than his sam/war 's pretty much all of the time. No arguement there. However if they looked at a parse they would see that sam/war had won out on both counts for more total damage due to much improved DOT from Berserk and DA. DOT is king in this game not spike damage. Also want to clear up that I'm mainly talking about 1-74, not merit parties. Anyone with remotely decent equipment is going to pull hate by subbing war in a meripo and be a drain on the party's resources but that's been discussed over and over.

I guess what I would like to see which I have never found is someone post some kind of actual data comparing the two. If someone says, "here's my parse of my 51 blu/war at X camp, this is the gear I was wearing, this is the food i used etc. VS this parse of me using /thf at X camp, etc, etc." I am pretty sure that there isn't much chance that /thf could do more total damage than /war pre 60, after that who knows, maybe TA does push it past what /war is capable of even though it doesn't for any other job. I have a hard time just taking someone's word for it though because in the past that's exactly how most people like sam/thf and drk/thf acted and jobs like mnk, war, and nin were looked down on as DD because all anyone did was eyeball large WS numbers instead of total DOT. Even to this day there are still so many people that just don't understand that when you take PlayerA who averages 1200 ws per fight yet does total 3000 damage per fight vs PlayerB who averages 600 WS yet does 5000 damage per fight that Player B is the higher DD. Most of the time PlayerA would gloat thinking how awesome he is that he "owned" PlayerB's damage and how nice it'd look to screenshot that WS to put in his Sig on the forums.
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Hmmm, you missed my point completely. The other jobs you mention, like SAM and DRK, have a large percentage of their total damage coming from melee hits, I agree with you there. They weapon skill maybe once a fight, two if its a long fight (add one to SAM of course, lol). BLU, usually, does not, have a large portion of it's damage come from it's melee hits, unless it's in a party without any kind of refresh. They cast spells probably every 5 seconds in a fight, if you include headbutt. All of those spells are completely unaffected by /war. THAT is the big difference.

To use the kind of example you mentioned above:

PlayerA, BLU/WAR hits for 45 a swing, hitting 20 times in a fight, for 900 damage from melee swings. His spell damage is 1200 damage. Total damage of 2100.

PlayerB, BLU/THF hits for 40 a swing, hitting 20 times in a fight, for 800 damage from melee swings. His spell damage is 1600 (one spell that would hit for 150 as /war hits for 550 as /thf). Total damage of 2400.

And in the above I'm being generous about how much of it comes from Melee damage. The more of a person's damage comes from melee hits, the more /war helps. The more it comes from spells though, the less it helps, and being able to triple or quadruple the damage of your best spell 1 or 2 times a fight, helps alot more.

If you'd like to farm fomor codexes sometime in aqueducts, I'd be glad to come blu/thf and you come blu/war if you'd like to see for yourself. Just need a PLD and a WHM so we can go full out.
 
This topic is a bit derailed here but I figured I would add my 2 cents. After all is said and done it, it simply sucks when you deal with people that are snooty about exp. I simply do understand wanting the most from your party but I always laugh when I see that bard sitting in aht urgan for 3 hours waiting for that party while I just merited for 3 hours and gained typially at least 13-20k an hour, anyless than that and people are either slacking off or simply are off balance in some way to not get at least 13k.

I will say it now that I dont DOT as much as a WAR or MNK ever, not my job folks. I do however out parse quite a few. Some reasons for this are the fact that I have alot of merits and fantastic gear to compensate. I also go SAM/NIN and use the soboro ws spam tactic with max haste.

Here is my setup:

TP gain;
Turban, Okotes, Chiv chain(Lack funds for PCC due to BLM gear), Lightening bow for DEX), Shura body, Byakko's Haidate, Hachiman feet, Raja's Ring, Sniper's ring, Foragers mantle, Swift belt, Brutal earring, Bushinomimi, Soboro.

WS gekko spam;
Shura head, Snow Gorget(adds acc and dmg to Yukikaze and Gekko ws), lightening bow, Kirin's Osode, Shura Haidate, Hachiman feet(I keep hachiman feet for WS accuracy, personal choice), Raja's Ring, Flame Ring, Forager's Mantle, Warwolf Belt, Brutal Earring(Kept for possible DA proc on WS), Bushinomimi, soboro.

Merits;
5/5 Store TP, 5/5 Meditate, 8/8 Great Katana, 4/4 Critical Hit Rate, 3/3 Overwhelm, 1/3 Shikikoyo, 2/3 Ikishioten(I try for max tp for 100 tp ws, it possibly adds a few extra tp to add to the dmg chance to bump up).

Im currently working on STR 1/5 completed. I also eat sole suishi for max accuracy in all exp unless I have a BRD that does ACC songs but I prefer Haste songs since I swing by myself about 4 seconds between swings since I have a constant 14% haste build on TP setup. Could be more with Dusk Gloves but atm im testing parsers on whether 17% haste is more worthwhile in my setup or that extra 15 ATT from Okotes.

Maybe that will explain to some folks why I parse well. Thanks.

Takumifujiwara
 
Soujiro said:
I guess what I would like to see which I have never found is someone post some kind of actual data comparing the two. If someone says, "here's my parse of my 51 blu/war at X camp, this is the gear I was wearing, this is the food i used etc. VS this parse of me using /thf at X camp, etc, etc." I am pretty sure that there isn't much chance that /thf could do more total damage than /war pre 60, after that who knows, maybe TA does push it past what /war is capable of even though it doesn't for any other job.
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TA doesn't do any damage when subbed. It's strictly utility. Which is why it's only acceptable to sub THF at 60. It's not because of extra damage, but hate placement.
 
Ewok said:
Rdm's and Plds are actually the toughest for me, but thats mainly for lack of a good defense build. I did sneak up on a RDM (love Tonko ^^) and almost killed him with a solo sc. Most DD's drop fast though (MNK WAR etc). A smart RNG can give me some problems, because of the lack of range.

And btw, most Rdm's don't 1 on 1 me, lol. They know better. ^^
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to add the reason rdms shouldnt is because blue mages are close combat fighters to mid range. most spells dont have long ranges since they are mob weaponskills

keep them at a distance and tear through them
 
Beka said:
Hmmm, you missed my point completely. The other jobs you mention, like SAM and DRK, have a large percentage of their total damage coming from melee hits, I agree with you there. They weapon skill maybe once a fight, two if its a long fight (add one to SAM of course, lol). BLU, usually, does not, have a large portion of it's damage come from it's melee hits, unless it's in a party without any kind of refresh. They cast spells probably every 5 seconds in a fight, if you include headbutt. All of those spells are completely unaffected by /war. THAT is the big difference.

To use the kind of example you mentioned above:

PlayerA, BLU/WAR hits for 45 a swing, hitting 20 times in a fight, for 900 damage from melee swings. His spell damage is 1200 damage. Total damage of 2100.

PlayerB, BLU/THF hits for 40 a swing, hitting 20 times in a fight, for 800 damage from melee swings. His spell damage is 1600 (one spell that would hit for 150 as /war hits for 550 as /thf). Total damage of 2400.

And in the above I'm being generous about how much of it comes from Melee damage. The more of a person's damage comes from melee hits, the more /war helps. The more it comes from spells though, the less it helps, and being able to triple or quadruple the damage of your best spell 1 or 2 times a fight, helps alot more.

If you'd like to farm fomor codexes sometime in aqueducts, I'd be glad to come blu/thf and you come blu/war if you'd like to see for yourself. Just need a PLD and a WHM so we can go full out.
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I guess I'm coming off as more concerned or interested in this blu thing than I really am so I'll stop after this one. If I hadn't gotten rid of most of the gear I had when I stopped playing it 9 months or so ago and had the initiative to test this myself then I would have done it already. Testing vs. someone else would be inaccurate unless everything about the other character is identical to your's, gear, merits if any, race, etc.

My whole point when bringing blu up specifically in /thf being worthwhile was that I found it odd that in this day where everyone parses practically everything they do it seemed like someone along the way arbitrarily decided this was the best sub without testing others and everyone else seemed to fall in line with them. This usually does not happen with any job or piece of gear in ffxi. Someone with alot of time on their hands and a burning desire to be most efficient usually will have piles of data showing what sub does what very shortly after a job/piece of gear is released and is more than happy to post all about it.

I didn't miss any of your points either. They are all good and I understand everything you have said. I am not saying you are wrong and I'm right because I don't know either way. I could be overestimating how much of an impact the boost to melee damage would do for total DOT. One thing I'd like to add though and take it for what it's worth is that /war would give you a couple of points of STR. It's been a while since I checked but I could have sworn quite a few blue spells had STR modifiers so while it'd be a minimal impact it's still more than nothing. No more speculation about it from me though, if I ever decide to level it again I'll definately test it and go with the one that's best.

Skaw, thanks for clearing that up about TA. I had always heard that it was SA that was gimped by not giving the full damage bonus that a thf main would get.
 
Well, theorycrafting aside, I too would be interested in seeing BLU/THF vs. BLU/WAR parses, though I'm not sure how isolated a test you could make it.

A BLU/WAR would probably use more of the same sort of spells as a BLU/NIN, because many of the popular spells for use with SA as BLU/THF, are quite underwhelming without SA. You could, I suppose, have the BLU/WAR use those spells anyway, but that wouldn't really be fair either since anyone legitimately going BLU/WAR wouldn't be using those unsuited spells in the first place.

BLU/WAR vs. BLU/NIN would be a fairer comparison as far as spells are concerned, but you'd hardly need to parse it to know that BLU/WAR would do more damage and BLU/NIN would take less damage. Same as the /WAR vs. /NIN arguments for most every other melee job.

Oh and, you were right ... SA is *also* gimped with THF sub. Just that TA is too. Here's how it works:

THF main, SA: guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit, DEX added to weapon DMG and fSTR and such in formulas (that's not exactly true but it's a close enough hand-wavy explanation).

THF sub, SA: guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit.

THF main, TA, pre-60: hate from attack transferred to TA target, AGI added in the same way as DEX with SA.

THF main, TA, 60+: hate from attack transferred to TA target, guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit, AGI added.

THF sub, TA: hate from attack transferred to TA target.

THF main, SATA: hate from attack transferred to TA target, guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit, DEX *and* AGI added.

THF sub, SATA: hate from attack transferred to TA target, guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit.

Basically /THF misses out on the DEX and AGI bonuses (which are, honestly, quite huge), and also misses out on the glorious creature known as the Assassin job trait.
 
BrandonHeat said:
This topic is a bit derailed here but I figured I would add my 2 cents. After all is said and done it, it simply sucks when you deal with people that are snooty about exp. I simply do understand wanting the most from your party but I always laugh when I see that bard sitting in aht urgan for 3 hours waiting for that party while I just merited for 3 hours and gained typially at least 13-20k an hour, anyless than that and people are either slacking off or simply are off balance in some way to not get at least 13k.

I will say it now that I dont DOT as much as a WAR or MNK ever, not my job folks. I do however out parse quite a few. Some reasons for this are the fact that I have alot of merits and fantastic gear to compensate. I also go SAM/NIN and use the soboro ws spam tactic with max haste.

Here is my setup:

TP gain;
Turban, Okotes, Chiv chain(Lack funds for PCC due to BLM gear), Lightening bow for DEX), Shura body, Byakko's Haidate, Hachiman feet, Raja's Ring, Sniper's ring, Foragers mantle, Swift belt, Brutal earring, Bushinomimi, Soboro.

WS gekko spam;
Shura head, Snow Gorget(adds acc and dmg to Yukikaze and Gekko ws), lightening bow, Kirin's Osode, Shura Haidate, Hachiman feet(I keep hachiman feet for WS accuracy, personal choice), Raja's Ring, Flame Ring, Forager's Mantle, Warwolf Belt, Brutal Earring(Kept for possible DA proc on WS), Bushinomimi, soboro.

Merits;
5/5 Store TP, 5/5 Meditate, 8/8 Great Katana, 4/4 Critical Hit Rate, 3/3 Overwhelm, 1/3 Shikikoyo, 2/3 Ikishioten(I try for max tp for 100 tp ws, it possibly adds a few extra tp to add to the dmg chance to bump up).

Im currently working on STR 1/5 completed. I also eat sole suishi for max accuracy in all exp unless I have a BRD that does ACC songs but I prefer Haste songs since I swing by myself about 4 seconds between swings since I have a constant 14% haste build on TP setup. Could be more with Dusk Gloves but atm im testing parsers on whether 17% haste is more worthwhile in my setup or that extra 15 ATT from Okotes.

Maybe that will explain to some folks why I parse well. Thanks.

Takumifujiwara
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Interesting, different ways to skin a cat with sam, not one cookie cutter gear setup/strategy. I use Acc/Attk/6 hit build with attk/str food, Hagun as Great Katana. Attk focus helps the melee DoT and works to numb the weakness of the Hagun, the lower base damage. The TP bonus with Hagun for WS speaks for itself. The more WS you fire, the more bonus you will recieve. 100% TP WS spam is ideal. This is where timing Meditate is important.

Here is my setup:

TP gain
Saotome Kabuto, Okotes, Peacock Charm, Tiphia Sting, Shura Togi, Shura Haidate, Hachiman Sune-Ate, Raja's Ring, Sniper's ring, Amemet Mantle +1, Swift belt, Brutal earring, Bushinomimi, Hagun.

WS Yukikaze/Gekko
Shura head, Myochin Kote +1, Snow Gorget(adds acc and dmg to Yukikaze and Gekko ws), Olibanum Sachet, Hachiman Domaru, Shura Haidate, Rutter Sabatons, Raja's Ring, Flame Ring, Amemet Mantle +1, Potent Belt, Brutal Earring, Bushinomimi, Hagun.

WS Kasha, same as above except neck is spike necklace, need another yovra organ for flame gorget.

Merits;
5/5 Store TP, 5/5 Meditate, 8/8 Great Katana, 4/4 Critical Hit Rate, 3/3 Overwhelm, 2/3 Shikikoyo, 1/3 Ikishioten, STR 5/5

Food: Bison Steak or Coeurl Subs.

This is the setup I use for SAM/NIN and SAM/WAR. Working on obtaining Byakko Haidates, when I do I'll try out the same setup and haste strategy too.
 
Sharpe said:
Yet no love for THF main post 60. Or so my girlfriend's been finding.
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THF is not an /autotarget DD. This is not unfortunate for anyone except the good THFs trying to get a party, realizing the reputation of the job is easily tarnished. It is not unfortunate because any great THF would tell you they would prefer something more than /autotarget melee. However, even post 60 THF, are almost never picked first for parties very often. The vast majority of THFs lack any real understanding of their job abilities / timers, and when it is best to be using them to propel them towards being a top tier DD. They get stuck in the rut of "hate management", or they live by the full SATA, die by the full SATA...They waste a LOT of time doing nothing but auto-attacking.

Your girl could make her own parties. That's a pain in the ass, but then again, so is sitting around wasting an entire day and never getting an invite.
 
All right. So I just read this post today. I have seen Jinx around a lot, but didn't know a thing about her. Anyways.....I put up my seek flag, and about 15 minutes later, I get a pt invite from none other than the infamous Jinx. Now, this invite was after I had read initial flame about her, but I took the invite against my better judgment. First thing I did was check the PT lineup. Jinx(BRD), SAM, WAR, NIN, me on MNK. She said 6th member on the way, another BRD. Didn't take long for her to live up to her reputation. We went to Mamool Ja SP, and were getting about 10-12k an hour. A little ways into the pt a few members needed to afk for a few mins. Jinx responded, "Ok, np." At almost the same time as this, she red dotted and never came back. Coincidence? Probably not. The whole pt I had in the back of my mind that she was going to pull something like that. I wish I would have taken to heart all these flames, you guys were right. :wacko:
 
I feel ya man I personaly would like the ideal set up for my pt too but @ the same time I dont wanna take 30min-2 hours + to get that "ideal set up". If that brd would have just takkin that same yall prob would have pted up for hours and ended up getting alot more xp in the end rather than waiting on a second brd.
SE really needs to fix this shit because pld are all soo important endgame but they do die offten and they need to get the xp back some way shape or form. If all i had was to fucking solo colibris and shit to get my 20k+ buffer i need it would take me weeks of killing to get that.
 
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