"Expanding" Endgame Linkshells

[Soujiro]

Sounds to me that the OP and alot of other people are placing too much blame on these shells and not on the actual individuals choosing to jump ship from whatever shell they were in. No one can force anyone to do anything on this video game. What Rappa said about dangling a carrot is alot closer but even still it comes down to the individual making a decision and to me they are the ones that should be accountable for it not XNameHNMShell.

Over the past 3 years I've seen this trend get worse and worse til where it is now where people can't even wipe their own asses without some approval from their end game shells. I understand the whole, "keep it in the family," mentality as to why these shells decide to throw their hat into each and every aspect of the game because it benefits them and there really is no downside as a result of being that way, for their shellmembers I mean. It may hurt your shell alot but that's really of no consequence to them.

About the only thing you can do is re-evaluate who and what you really lost. If they had such little regard and loyalty for you and your shell then you are probably better off without them. How someone acts and the decisions they make say alot about their character.

And like I said there really are no repercussions to doing this sort of thing but that's only because in general the "community" chooses it to be that way. The next time you see one of your pals that just dicked you over with party flag up, don't invite them to your merit party. The next time they ask you for help with another job AF, some quest, a popped NM, a TAU/COP mission, an event, or even if they just send you a tell with some funny joke they heard, snub them like they did to you. I guarantee that if everyone decided to act like that then alot of this type of crap wouldn't happen so much as is does. I know better though and more than likely the ones bitching now will be back doing assault/farming coffer keys/bcnm runs/etc with those same "friends" that ditched you to go do dynamis or whatever with their HNM shells.

 

[Achates]

Let me state up front that with my council, I run FuryDynamis.

With that said, begging is not beneath me. But I understand loyalty, and have never asked members to quit their Dynamis shells. I don't know how many of you know Nifal, but he left Encore long enough to help me settle up our runs for the first few months, and then went back to his shell. Others, Aerdrie for example, have chosen to just stick with their team.

One of the things that makes FuryDynamis great is that we do not condition it on Sky involvement. For example, you can choose to not do sky and help do just dynamis and still be a welcome friend. Now, most of our members do both, and we have been very successful (We won every area on our first try except Bastok, don't ask lol).

We house one rule in Fury as a shell that takes precidence in all aspects. RL > FFXI. And we expect RL > FFXI. You aren't penalized for RL.

I think my friend, that you have either been mislead or perhaps you are singling out a shell. But do not lump us all with the heathens. We aren't all RMT.

For those who are interested or do not know about us we house internal dynamis, sea, sky, limbus, assaults, and pop nm events. If that means we make you uncomfortable, like Litant said, we are sorry. But, those of us who are here are having a damn good time.

Anyone else delevel Jyakotsu on 3 jobs within one hour? =)

Achates

 

[Garvin]

Sounds to me that the OP and alot of other people are placing too much blame on these shells and not on the actual individuals choosing to jump ship from whatever shell they were in. No one can force anyone to do anything on this video game. What Rappa said about dangling a carrot is alot closer but even still it comes down to the individual making a decision and to me they are the ones that should be accountable for it not XNameHNMShell.

Over the past 3 years I've seen this trend get worse and worse til where it is now where people can't even wipe their own asses without some approval from their end game shells. I understand the whole, "keep it in the family," mentality as to why these shells decide to throw their hat into each and every aspect of the game because it benefits them and there really is no downside as a result of being that way, for their shellmembers I mean. It may hurt your shell alot but that's really of no consequence to them.

About the only thing you can do is re-evaluate who and what you really lost. If they had such little regard and loyalty for you and your shell then you are probably better off without them. How someone acts and the decisions they make say alot about their character.

And like I said there really are no repercussions to doing this sort of thing but that's only because in general the "community" chooses it to be that way. The next time you see one of your pals that just dicked you over with party flag up, don't invite them to your merit party. The next time they ask you for help with another job AF, some quest, a popped NM, a TAU/COP mission, an event, or even if they just send you a tell with some funny joke they heard, snub them like they did to you. I guarantee that if everyone decided to act like that then alot of this type of crap wouldn't happen so much as is does. I know better though and more than likely the ones bitching now will be back doing assault/farming coffer keys/bcnm runs/etc with those same "friends" that ditched you to go do dynamis or whatever with their HNM shells.

So wait. You're saying that because someone is in a HNM/Sky LS that proposes they make a choice they should never have to, that they should be blamed for making it? That's utter bullshit.

Put the blame where it really belongs, on a LS that says "You will join us for dynamis or you will lose points (or maybe worse, the OP hasn't been very forthcoming yet.)" It's utter bullshit, and yes, whether you admit it or not, it is forcing someone's hand when presented like that.

Many people have mentioned their LS also doing Dynamis. That's great, it really is a good thing, and can take people who already work together, and add another thing to their accomplishments...
...but it should never be intertwined with anything else, especially after a shell is established. Whether or not that dynamis LS winds up getting better results or not, it's going to hurt a lot of people, the players themselves, their other dynamis LSes, or even the LS trying to force things.

 

[Blancho]

3 wins, not 2.

Thats right I forgot about 1 of them I was kinda thinking it was 3 anyways I edited my post. LOL

 

[Zerayla]

Sounds to me that the OP and alot of other people are placing too much blame on these shells and not on the actual individuals choosing to jump ship from whatever shell they were in. No one can force anyone to do anything on this video game. What Rappa said about dangling a carrot is alot closer but even still it comes down to the individual making a decision and to me they are the ones that should be accountable for it not XNameHNMShell.

Over the past 3 years I've seen this trend get worse and worse til where it is now where people can't even wipe their own asses without some approval from their end game shells. I understand the whole, "keep it in the family," mentality as to why these shells decide to throw their hat into each and every aspect of the game because it benefits them and there really is no downside as a result of being that way, for their shellmembers I mean. It may hurt your shell alot but that's really of no consequence to them.

About the only thing you can do is re-evaluate who and what you really lost. If they had such little regard and loyalty for you and your shell then you are probably better off without them. How someone acts and the decisions they make say alot about their character.

And like I said there really are no repercussions to doing this sort of thing but that's only because in general the "community" chooses it to be that way. The next time you see one of your pals that just dicked you over with party flag up, don't invite them to your merit party. The next time they ask you for help with another job AF, some quest, a popped NM, a TAU/COP mission, an event, or even if they just send you a tell with some funny joke they heard, snub them like they did to you. I guarantee that if everyone decided to act like that then alot of this type of crap wouldn't happen so much as is does. I know better though and more than likely the ones bitching now will be back doing assault/farming coffer keys/bcnm runs/etc with those same "friends" that ditched you to go do dynamis or whatever with their HNM shells.

I don't know the exact conditions the members that have left were given, but "I'm sorry but my sky LS decided to start doing dynamis, and they said we have to do it with them" were the words I was given recently from one of the members that left our LS. To me, it sounds like they were given an ultimadum:

1. Leave your other Dynamis LS and join the endgame Dynamis Roster
2. You will not be welcome in the endgame LS and you will lose opportunities to progress and obtain other gear needed in sky/sea/HNM

Now as a Dynamis LS only, we can't offer what a Sky/Sea/HNM LS is going to be able to offer. So while yes the members are not being forced, it seems like they're being told that they're going to be screwed out of their current endgame LS if they don't comply. Somehow, they are going to be penalized for not participating in the newly created Dynamis Roster created within that endgame LS, because as mentioned earlier... we had one member express that they weren't happy with the decision because they enjoyed being able to do dynamis with us, and if given the choice, they would continue to do Dynamis with us.

I don't know which LS the members we lost are apart of, but it would of been nice if their endgame LS had given the players the option to stay with their current Dynamis LSs without having any penalties, including descrimination for chosing to stick with their current dynamis LS.

In the end, it is the player's choice but like Garvin said, why should they be put in a position where they have to either give up something they enjoyed so that they can continue to progress in other areas that a "Dynamis Only" LS can't offer?

 

[Blancho]

As an anology I would use a Linkshell as your IRL job and a Dynamis shell being a club such as a YMCA or a Work out club. If your job suddenly wants to make a similar club they don't FORCE you to leave your current club to join theirs. However you may want to because you'd rather play raquetball or w/e with people you know better.

Dynamis is like a game within a game. It's not something people will ever feel obligated to do. It's somehing people do for some cool gearz and maybe a chance at some money but mostly for fun. Which is why alot of people will get 5/5 gear that they want and still not leave because they do it for fun.

 

[Courtney]

You realize that af2 drops are random right? You're bragging that you get a lot of drops? Every dynamis ls gets a lot of drops, lol. Put that e-peen away until you're farming DLs or clearing Dynamis-Tavnazia cause till then you guys aren't a big deal.

Actually, AF2 drops aren't random. Every mob you kill gives you a chance of AF2 and the amount of AF2 you get is (over time) directly proportional to the number of mobs you kill. Shells that kill more mobs get more AF2.

 

[Blancho]

Actually, AF2 drops aren't random. Every mob you kill gives you a chance of AF2 and the amount of AF2 you get is (over time) directly proportional to the number of mobs you kill. Shells that kill more mobs get more AF2.

Of course the amount of TH you have bears no signifigance and obviously 1/ every 50 mobs or so is bound to drop af. lol

I did dynamis once when I had my own shell we only made it a little ways because we were really small and just started out but we had 4afs and a 100c drop and we were about 1/10th of the way in if that and I've done that same zone before beat the zone and farmed 30mins after the zone and got less then that. LOL (on top of that 3 of em were BLM)

So no it is completely random.

 

[Courtney]

Of course the amount of TH you have bears no signifigance and obviously 1/ every 50 mobs or so is bound to drop af. lol

I did dynamis once when I had my own shell we only made it a little ways because we were really small and just started out but we had 4afs and a 100c drop and we were about 1/10th of the way in if that and I've done that same zone before beat the zone and farmed 30mins after the zone and got less then that. LOL (on top of that 3 of em were BLM)

So no it is completely random.

You don't understand the concept of randomness.

 

[Blancho]

Every mob has a chance to drop af2 yes. Except stones will only drop 100 coins never af2. When they do drop is COMPLETELY RANDOM. There is no drop percentage based on them like there is a NM or a HNM. Therefore you can't predict that people who kill more mobs will in end get more af you can try to increase your chance to but it still doesnt mean you will get more just beause you've had more chances.

 

[Garvin]

Every mob has a chance to drop af2 yes. Except stones will only drop 100 coins never af2. When they do drop is COMPLETELY RANDOM. There is no drop percentage based on them like there is a NM or a HNM. Therefore you can't predict that people who kill more mobs will in end get more af you can try to increase your chance to but it still doesnt mean you will get more just beause you've had more chances.

Except it's impossible for it to be "completely random". That can't actually happen. At some point, even if it's a low percent, it's probability, as there simply is no other realistic way.

Also, you seem to fail to understand the reason that people take large sample groups for statistics. The percentages are low, so it's difficult to tell, but over an extremely long period of time, the kill to relic ratio will present itself equal for any shell. gb2 math class...

Also, could you explain what this or your dynamis LS's DL kills have to do with this at all...?

 

[Raesvelg]

Honestly, it makes SENSE to keep as many activites in-house as you can. You already know you've got a solid team if you're running a successful endgame shell, so recruitment isn't really an issue. If you think your shell can handle the added stress, by all means go for it. And by far the most effective way to go about it is to simply have a points system that accrues into the same points "bank" that every other activity adds to and is bid from. That way, you've got incentive for people (like me) who already have all their AF2 (well, no Valor Cape or Shadow items, but whatevah) to keep showing up, particularly if the points are worthwhile. And by keeping it all in-house, you're assured that the effort of your members goes to the betterment of the shell as a whole.

But.

IT FUCKING SUCKS for the people that are in the shells that get ditched. Watching half your "core" membership, the people who make almost every run and do their damn jobs, vanish over a week or two is painful. Then you have to recruit new people, fumble through runs because the people who already knew how to handle situations are now using the expertise they gained with YOU to profit someone ELSE, and generally try to muddle through as best you can, while hemorraghing new members who aren't patient enough to endure the rebuilding process, thus prolonging the agony for those who remain.

And there you have it, both sides of the argument in a nutshell.

 

[Courtney]

Every mob has a chance to drop af2 yes. Except stones will only drop 100 coins never af2. When they do drop is COMPLETELY RANDOM. There is no drop percentage based on them like there is a NM or a HNM.

You're mistaken.

There is a finite drop percentage for AF2 on every normal Dynamis mob (yes, it's impossible on statues and mobs like pets and presumably dragons). It is affected by TH, but the effect of the Thiefs Knife and AF2 hands has been demonstrated to be small. Even if some shells have more AF2 Hands (every thief should have a Knife by now) the advantage of this is negligible which is why I was ignoring TH.

While whether a single mob drops AF2 or not can be written off as luck, the more mobs you kill (ie the larger the statistical population) the more AF2 will drop. If 2 LSs (lets assume they have the same TH) are both in Xarcabard for 3 hours and LS A kills 50 mobs, and LS B kills 350 mobs, LS B will get more AF. Not necessarily every run, but over time, they will get 7x the AF of LS A (ignoring any difference in probability for the 15 NMs).

I belong to 2 Dynamis Shells, 1 NA and 1 JP. Both have got 10 AF2 in a single Xarcabard run in the past week. Neither have significantly more TH, or luck than any other Shell. Both are near the top of the Dynamis tree though, and both kill a hell of a lot of Mobs every run. Luck plays a part, but kill enough mobs and luck definitely takes a back seat.

 

[Rappa]

Actually, AF2 drops aren't random. Every mob you kill gives you a chance of AF2 and the amount of AF2 you get is (over time) directly proportional to the number of mobs you kill. Shells that kill more mobs get more AF2.

Yes, this is common sense. Factors such as the number of mobs killed and various amounts of TH will affect "randomness" into your favor. But bragging that your shell gets a lot of drops farming cities is kinda silly, which is what I was hoping to point out. This isn't "prime rib", as it was so oddly referred to as earlier.

 

[Blancho]

Except it's impossible for it to be "completely random". That can't actually happen. At some point, even if it's a low percent, it's probability, as there simply is no other realistic way.

Also, you seem to fail to understand the reason that people take large sample groups for statistics. The percentages are low, so it's difficult to tell, but over an extremely long period of time, the kill to relic ratio will present itself equal for any shell. gb2 math class...

Also, could you explain what this or your dynamis LS's DL kills have to do with this at all...?

Actually it is very possible if it wasn't then you could do 100 xbrd runs go the exact route kill the same mobs everytime and then do the same thing 100times again and you'd come up with the exact number or within 5 of the same number. I'm willing to bet the number differnce wouldn't be within 20.

Dynamis is so completly differnt with drops then the rest of the game.

As for my comment about our shell beating DL 3 times it had to do with a reply to another comment.

Time for dynamis BBL!

 

[Tok]

im sorry, one shell cant do everything endgame, its a stupid concept and is way too much to handle, sky and limbus and a couple ks99 runs are ok but when u start wanting to do hnms, salvage, dynamis, limbus, ks99, land gods, sea and sky, your just pushing it and people are gonna leave

the best end game shells are those who stick to ONE endgame event, admining a dynamis shell is work enough (im assuming) much less trying to keep every other event in check...people are trying way too hard to turn this game into a fucking job

YOUR LS LEADER IS NOT YOUR BOSS

 

[Raesvelg]

There is a bit of a quirk in the statistical model though, it's entirely possible to be just plain unlucky. On average, yes, all things will level out in the end... but the universe doesn't play by the law of averages. You CAN get screwed by random probability over and over and over again. A good example can be found in specific drops. In TDS, we had so many Assassin's Armlets they were going to secondary lotters, and almost to overflow by the end. In other shells, during the same time period, with roughly the same degree of success, they got 1 or 2 pairs.

Taken over the grander scheme of course, the level of Armlet drops was pretty consistent, just that the distribution of whose shell they were dropping in was skewed.

 

[Bajaratt]

Actually it is very possible if it wasn't then you could do 100 xbrd runs go the exact route kill the same mobs everytime and then do the same thing 100times again and you'd come up with the exact number or within 5 of the same number. I'm willing to bet the number differnce wouldn't be within 20.

Dynamis is so completly differnt with drops then the rest of the game.

As for my comment about our shell beating DL 3 times it had to do with a reply to another comment.

Time for dynamis BBL!

The groups who get more drops are the ones who kill more. Show where someone who only killed 50 mobs in xarc gets 10 drops, everyone else who manages that many drops kills hundreds of mobs. Every mob in the game has a set chance to drop anything in their pool, dynamis is no different.

Having done xarcabard several dozen times, usually you'd see 3-5 pieces drop. There are outlier runs, where nothing or everything seems to drop. You usually do come within a few pieces of your average, so you're completely wrong about drops.

You don't seem to understand how dynamis or any drops work.

 

[Mai Ikari]

On the topic of the statistics derail, I'm going with Option D: You're all wrong.

Dynamis has a specific chance to drop things. More kills = more drops. But it's a chance, and chance can be a very fickle/random/othertermhere thing. Go though Glacier with 0 AF or 100c, go through again in 3 days and get 5 AF and 2 100c. Actually, I think we've had a few 0 drop Glaciers, again, with large amounts of kills.

Chance, with a huge sample size, is no longer random. But with a small sample size, it may as well be (example here: 10 dynamis runs in the same area with roughly the same kills).

Can we stop with the e-peen contest "My .1% is better than your .1%"? It's kinda silly.



Back on topic, I can understand making something like sea or salvage mandatory, since getting people to attend can be a severe problem when people think of it as a sky shell... but making dynamis mandatory, especially when most of that shell already does dynamis with somebody else, is pretty stupid.

 

[Achates]

Honestly, it makes SENSE to keep as many activites in-house as you can. You already know you've got a solid team if you're running a successful endgame shell, so recruitment isn't really an issue. If you think your shell can handle the added stress, by all means go for it. And by far the most effective way to go about it is to simply have a points system that accrues into the same points "bank" that every other activity adds to and is bid from. That way, you've got incentive for people (like me) who already have all their AF2 (well, no Valor Cape or Shadow items, but whatevah) to keep showing up, particularly if the points are worthwhile. And by keeping it all in-house, you're assured that the effort of your members goes to the betterment of the shell as a whole.

But.

IT FUCKING SUCKS for the people that are in the shells that get ditched. Watching half your "core" membership, the people who make almost every run and do their damn jobs, vanish over a week or two is painful. Then you have to recruit new people, fumble through runs because the people who already knew how to handle situations are now using the expertise they gained with YOU to profit someone ELSE, and generally try to muddle through as best you can, while hemorraghing new members who aren't patient enough to endure the rebuilding process, thus prolonging the agony for those who remain.

And there you have it, both sides of the argument in a nutshell.

One would hope that a solid team of friends would stay together until the end. Life isn't always fair though.