Fay Crozier vs. HQ Staves?

[Shirai]

You miss the fact of the attack/acc on fay or bp down? Which would do more then the smn magic.

Speaking as a Summoner that traded all 5 Avatar physical attack merits for Avatar Magical attack merits.
Avatar Physical attack has litterally did jack shit to me on any mob at HNM level and on anything lower the difference in damage was minimal as well.
Biggest waste of merits I ever did.

With Yinyang robe and Relic hands, head, feet and legs you get -14 seconds on your ability delay.
The cap on BP delay is 15 seconds. (25%)
That one second is not going to give an extra Predator claws on Tiamat between flights.

You don't even need carry around 2nd staff unless you want little buff on your siphons and merit bp. Which if you look above you see that what i said I used it for.

I'm not saying that it's a bad staff combination, I am merely debating that your argument that a combo of 2 staves beating a single staff with marginally lower stats or even coming close to the rivaling a mythic weapon.
(Where the feck did you come up with that?!)

But I had this debate with several other summoners that cannot get a B-staff of their own so I'll leave it at this.
I don't want to bring in game mechanics.

I'll leave you with a word of wisdom though, situational.

As for the 30 mp it minimal bonus at best, because you most likely wont get back up to full mp after that first cast anyway and even if you do it a waste because you be using a dark/pluto when you rest. Making that 30 mp useless.

Oh because I don't have a macro to swap into my MP gear for the last tick...
With +30HMP without food MP comes back fairly quick already.
And as I said before for any decently geared summoner 30MP is at least 6 extra ticks of perpetuation.
More if you toss in avatar's favor.

 

[hellstorm]

Speaking as a Summoner that traded all 5 Avatar physical attack merits for Avatar Magical attack merits.
Avatar Physical attack has litterally did jack shit to me on any mob at HNM level and on anything lower the difference in damage was minimal as well.
Biggest waste of merits I ever did.

With Yinyang robe and Relic hands, head, feet and legs you get -14 seconds on your ability delay.
The cap on BP delay is 15 seconds. (25%)
That one second is not going to give an extra Predator claws on Tiamat between flights.



I'm not saying that it's a bad staff combination, I am merely debating that your argument that a combo of 2 staves beating a single staff with marginally lower stats or even coming close to the rivaling a mythic weapon.
(Where the feck did you come up with that?!)

But I had this debate with several other summoners that cannot get a B-staff of their own so I'll leave it at this.
I don't want to bring in game mechanics.

I'll leave you with a word of wisdom though, situational.



Oh because I don't have a macro to swap into my MP gear for the last tick...
With +30HMP without food MP comes back fairly quick already.
And as I said before for any decently geared summoner 30MP is at least 6 extra ticks of perpetuation.
More if you toss in avatar's favor.

I can see why you do jack on Tiamat if you using avatar favor. I also have -14 bp, -6 perp(-8 garuda) + 1 refresh which is max except if you have right day or weather or acp body with -2 perp. I have 323 sum skill on mag bp with mystics pole, 311 on phy rage with fay staff(missing marduk head & feet and only have nq af2 and 5 smn merits).
Any person who only bp on the ground for tia is a lazy smn because merit bp can do decent dmg in the air. If you are having major mp problems where you need extra 6 tics, you doing something very wrong because you should not have problems if you have a refresher especially if you are not using magic bp since you don't bp in air. Even if you don't you still should not have issue because I only have only +25 hmp and I normally only have to rest maybe once or twice for 1 fly period depending on time for a tia kill at a full mp pool of 1195 without food. Unless your one those shells that take 2 hours to kill Tia.

Bottem line Bahamut's staff is a obsolete piece of gear that only a burn smn that don't care about smn should use because it free lot from Bahamut.

 

[Shirai]

First:

Bottem line Bahamut's staff is a obsolete piece of gear that only a burn smn that don't care about smn should use because it free lot from Bahamut.

LOL

I'll make it simple.
As I said it is a nice alternative to the bahamut's staff, but saying it makes the Bahamut's obsolete just made you the laughing stock of the summoners.

But as you want so much to call gear obsolete because you aren't able to get it here's a simple comparison.

Elemental Siphon:

You get 2 more MP on your Siphons from the Mythic pole, which looks nice on the screen but you lose at least one time 3 MP because of perpetuation, setting you back 1 MP on your Siphon versus a Bahamut's.
It's 1MP but if you wish to take this discussion that way...
Bahamut's staff already wins vs your combo in this direction.

I can see why you do jack on Tiamat if you using avatar favor. I also have -14 bp, -6 perp(-8 garuda) + 1 refresh which is max except if you have right day or weather or acp body with -2 perp. I have 323 sum skill on mag bp with mystics pole, 311 on phy rage with fay staff(missing marduk head & feet and only have nq af2 and 5 smn merits).

Avatar's Favor is not used on offensive playstyle, I do not know where you get that idea or where I even said that.
But this also shows that you know close to nothing about avatar's favor.

Allow me to explain:

Avatar's Favor does indeed reduce the avata's attack abilities, but according to those summoners that actually researched it the attack is reduced by a mere 15%, it doesn't completely cancel the summoner's DD abilities.
That said, if a summoner is in offensive mode, this should not be up, even to conserve MP, but any summoner can tell you that.

Now onto Avatar's Favor and the summoning magic skill effect on it.
The people I talked about that figured favor out also found out that the 'hard' cap for Avatar's favor buffs given to the party are reached when the summoner themselves get up to a summoning magic skill of 317.
To make it simple, that's a 4MP/Tick refresh.

A summoner's skill caps at 269 so to get to 317 you'd need +48 Skill in gear.
Let's add up in gear available to the average player that has no merits in Summoning magic skill:

Evoker's Ring: +10
Summoner's Bracers: +10
Summoner's Torque: +7
Summoning Earring: +3
Oracle's Braconi: +5
Evoker's Horn: +5
Nashira Crackows: +5
Astute Cape: +5

That totals +50 in gear, but leaves no room for perpetuation cost reducing gear except for your Crozier or Elemental staff.
Bahamut's staff already frees your one slot for another Perpetuation reducing item and does not sacrifice perpetuation cost.

Now up to your little rant:

Any person who only bp on the ground for tia is a lazy smn because merit bp can do decent dmg in the air. If you are having major mp problems where you need extra 6 tics, you doing something very wrong because you should not have problems if you have a refresher especially if you are not using magic bp since you don't bp in air. Even if you don't you still should not have issue because I only have only +25 hmp and I normally only have to rest maybe once or twice for 1 fly period depending on time for a tia kill at a full mp pool of 1195 without food.

Predator Claws 165 MP with an average damage of 550 on Tiamat.
Timed well I do 3 of those every landing session, which comes out to about 1650 damage at least every 4 minutes unless your blms blow her out of the sky every flight.
A merit pact is 182MP, the damage formula is as follows:
Formula is (floor[512+1.72*(TP+1)] + floor[(Avatar's INT - Monster's INT) * 1.5]) * MAB(of avatar)/MDB(of monster) * Day/Weather

Avatars at level 75 are estimated to have 82 INT.
Now I am roughly estimating Tiamat has 120 INT so putting the the calculation of you having a merit pact maxed.
That is the strength of a 160%TP pact for a fresh summon.

Calculation:
(floor[512+1.72*(160+1)] + floor[(82 - 120) * 1.5])
512+1.72*(160+1)
161*1.72 = 276.92 (Let's round this number up to 277)
512+277 = 789
INT82 - INT120 = -38
789-38= 751
751*1.5= 1126.5 (1127, which is about correct looking at my own Heavenly Strikes which I have fully merited.)

Now Tiamat has a very high magic defense bonus, some would say around 50% damage reduction when she's airborn.
That averages out around the same as physical pacts with the slight difference that if you have a little army of black mages nuking alongside you that you probably won't get enough time to get 3 of those off making you less effective in the damage department then doing your 'Lazy' ground attacks.
Also your MP vs. Damage ratio is less efficient as you use more MP for roughly the same damage.
(You guys don't sleep her on the ground do you? )

Aside from that, Tiamat tends to resist a lot, even on the high int/elemental skill blms.
If you don't believe it, ask your own best geared blms.
Besides, it's not that I am completely Idle when she flies.
BLMs love Dream shroud, no matter how little it adds.
Also Elemental Siphon and Sublimation (when no rdm present) are awesome for MP management.

Physically Tiamat does not have a very high evasion, you have less chance missing a physical pact then getting resisted on a merit pact.
Besides that, physical pacts can crit where your merit pacts are stuck on their damage formula and the more then occasional resists.

Unless your one those shells that take 2 hours to kill Tia.

Regarding killtimes, my linkshell does not do $3000 or 100+m gil for a piece of software which does not make you have to press enter every 29 minutes.
But we've been doing fine without, proven by the Riddill we've gotten last friday, the N-Legs the day before and the N-head the day after and the Gaiters on my own character's feet.
Disadvantage is that we do not get as many applicants as such linkshells so we don't have a lot of bodies to throw at things, or to even camp 2 or 3 things at the same time, also since my shell is oriented at European playtimes it happens that something can pop when less people are on.
Like the early afternoons, where most of us people work, or late at night when people are sleeping.
Most of us don't appreciate being called up at night just because Tiamat is about to pop.

But during those times when you're looking at one tank, a bard, a white mage, a red mage, a thief, a corsair and 3 black mages to take care of Timmeh as well as Earth and Air elementals and even our good friends the Arch corses at night.
A fight can get lengthy if noone else pops with a useful job.

But at least we do not wipe with more then an alliance.

 

[Myrrh]

Hellstorm, maybe you should just stick to Rdm melee and stay away from Smn.

 

[hellstorm]

First:



LOL

I'll make it simple.
As I said it is a nice alternative to the bahamut's staff, but saying it makes the Bahamut's obsolete just made you the laughing stock of the summoners.

But as you want so much to call gear obsolete because you aren't able to get it here's a simple comparison.

Elemental Siphon:

You get 2 more MP on your Siphons from the Mythic pole, which looks nice on the screen but you lose at least one time 3 MP because of perpetuation, setting you back 1 MP on your Siphon versus a Bahamut's.
It's 1MP but if you wish to take this discussion that way...
Bahamut's staff already wins vs your combo in this direction.



Avatar's Favor is not used on offensive playstyle, I do not know where you get that idea or where I even said that.
But this also shows that you know close to nothing about avatar's favor.

Allow me to explain:

Avatar's Favor does indeed reduce the avata's attack abilities, but according to those summoners that actually researched it the attack is reduced by a mere 15%, it doesn't completely cancel the summoner's DD abilities.
That said, if a summoner is in offensive mode, this should not be up, even to conserve MP, but any summoner can tell you that.

Now onto Avatar's Favor and the summoning magic skill effect on it.
The people I talked about that figured favor out also found out that the 'hard' cap for Avatar's favor buffs given to the party are reached when the summoner themselves get up to a summoning magic skill of 317.
To make it simple, that's a 4MP/Tick refresh.

A summoner's skill caps at 269 so to get to 317 you'd need +48 Skill in gear.
Let's add up in gear available to the average player that has no merits in Summoning magic skill:

Evoker's Ring: +10
Summoner's Bracers: +10
Summoner's Torque: +7
Summoning Earring: +3
Oracle's Braconi: +5
Evoker's Horn: +5
Nashira Crackows: +5
Astute Cape: +5

That totals +50 in gear, but leaves no room for perpetuation cost reducing gear except for your Crozier or Elemental staff.
Bahamut's staff already frees your one slot for another Perpetuation reducing item and does not sacrifice perpetuation cost.

Now up to your little rant:


Predator Claws 165 MP with an average damage of 550 on Tiamat.
Timed well I do 3 of those every landing session, which comes out to about 1650 damage at least every 4 minutes unless your blms blow her out of the sky every flight.
A merit pact is 182MP, the damage formula is as follows:
Formula is (floor[512+1.72*(TP+1)] + floor[(Avatar's INT - Monster's INT) * 1.5]) * MAB(of avatar)/MDB(of monster) * Day/Weather

Avatars at level 75 are estimated to have 82 INT.
Now I am roughly estimating Tiamat has 120 INT so putting the the calculation of you having a merit pact maxed.
That is the strength of a 160%TP pact for a fresh summon.

Calculation:
(floor[512+1.72*(160+1)] + floor[(82 - 120) * 1.5])
512+1.72*(160+1)
161*1.72 = 276.92 (Let's round this number up to 277)
512+277 = 789
INT82 - INT120 = -38
789-38= 751
751*1.5= 1126.5 (1127, which is about correct looking at my own Heavenly Strikes which I have fully merited.)

Now Tiamat has a very high magic defense bonus, some would say around 50% damage reduction when she's airborn.
That averages out around the same as physical pacts with the slight difference that if you have a little army of black mages nuking alongside you that you probably won't get enough time to get 3 of those off making you less effective in the damage department then doing your 'Lazy' ground attacks.
Also your MP vs. Damage ratio is less efficient as you use more MP for roughly the same damage.
(You guys don't sleep her on the ground do you? )

Aside from that, Tiamat tends to resist a lot, even on the high int/elemental skill blms.
If you don't believe it, ask your own best geared blms.
Besides, it's not that I am completely Idle when she flies.
BLMs love Dream shroud, no matter how little it adds.
Also Elemental Siphon and Sublimation (when no rdm present) are awesome for MP management.

Physically Tiamat does not have a very high evasion, you have less chance missing a physical pact then getting resisted on a merit pact.
Besides that, physical pacts can crit where your merit pacts are stuck on their damage formula and the more then occasional resists.



Regarding killtimes, my linkshell does not do $3000 or 100+m gil for a piece of software which does not make you have to press enter every 29 minutes.
But we've been doing fine without, proven by the Riddill we've gotten last friday, the N-Legs the day before and the N-head the day after and the Gaiters on my own character's feet.
Disadvantage is that we do not get as many applicants as such linkshells so we don't have a lot of bodies to throw at things, or to even camp 2 or 3 things at the same time, also since my shell is oriented at European playtimes it happens that something can pop when less people are on.
Like the early afternoons, where most of us people work, or late at night when people are sleeping.
Most of us don't appreciate being called up at night just because Tiamat is about to pop.

But during those times when you're looking at one tank, a bard, a white mage, a red mage, a thief, a corsair and 3 black mages to take care of Timmeh as well as Earth and Air elementals and even our good friends the Arch corses at night.
A fight can get lengthy if noone else pops with a useful job.

But at least we do not wipe with more then an alliance.

First off my shell don't throw body at tia that would be the other shell on this server who normally take 2 and a half hour 3-8 tanks and god knows how many rdms. Only ever taken over a hour was when we had 12 people on a 6:30am tia Which we started with 6. Never had I had issues with mp most time we don't even have a refresh and I sub whm. Favor are useless in most fights because party has be in range of the avatar which also means in range of the mob, and you have keep the avatar out to get the full effect which is not weight the cost of mp/acc it gives. As for the magic atk part maybe you see less resist if you was not using ice on a fire mob. Grauda wind blade does better dmg then heavenly strikes on tia. If you done more then 2 tia maybe you would know that. Blm do better dmg in air then smn if you not going focus on ground dmg you should be swapped with one. While you should do as much dmg in the air as can your main focus should always be ground for tia. Know when to use siphon so you get max of you mp the 10 mp (since you have tamas instead of serket assuming because of /sch) is quite minor alot less minor then the 2 smn magic and 4 atk that I gain from my set. Also sport If I wanted a b staff I could get a B staff. I took my name off the list to get one, because it inferior to the set I have.

ps you forgot summoning belt

 

[Lyall]

PC+1.

I like how this started as a stat discussion and became an epeen measuring contest.

 

[Shirai]

Unreadable giberish.

2 Days and you come back with THAT?!

It would do you good if you used some punctuation in your writings, I have a hard time reading it.
I did my best to do so regardless.

Which brings me to your reading comprehension.
Through all that text I carefully put up so it was easy to read I still notice
you only read those bits and pieces you think you can use against me.

Now I have to go and formulate another logical reply to your nonsensical one.
And besides that show you how quoting should be done.
Sorry if I skip a few things as I only reply to what makes sense to me after extensive filtering.

As for the magic atk part maybe you see less resist if you was not using ice on a fire mob. Grauda wind blade does better dmg then heavenly strikes on tia.

Where the hell did I write down I use Heavenly strike on Tiamat?
I wrote it down as an comparison for the damage formula as that is the Pact I have fully merited.
All merit pacts work on exactly the same damage formula with the difference that Leviathan has a natural MAB and Shiva has a MACC bonus.
Of course, just like all black magic, a mob's own element plays a huge role.

But my point to you was to show you that as a DD summoner it is more effecient to use physical pacts when Tia is on the ground then magical when she's in the air.
As, and I may simply have misunderstood it through your terrible writing style, you really gave me the impression that you were saying you should only use magical pacts.

If you done more then 2 tia maybe you would know that.

My Herald's gaiters say hi!

If we have only fought 2 Tiamats I wouldn't have these having been in my current LS for only 3 months at this moment.
I could have had a pair back in Insurrection but I never put them on my list back then.
And my crafts are up there too in my profile, you really think I'm able to buy those with 60 bonecraft and 46 fishing and enough playtime to do no more then consistently participate in LS events?
(As that is where most of my playtime goes. And no I don't buy gil!)

Blm do better dmg in air then smn if you not going focus on ground dmg you should be swapped with one. While you should do as much dmg in the air as can your main focus should always be ground for tia.

I'm glad we agree on that point.
However since I only fully merited Heavenly Strike, which as you say is useless on Tiamat, but with her 50% Magic damage reduction throwing any non fully merited pact is a waste of MP.
So is Nether Blast by the way.
I'd rather give the BLMs an extra boost in the form of Dream Shroud and sit back to rest a little bit while I watch blms set off some pretty fireworks.

Looking at pretty most other mobs however, both endgame and non-endgame, heavenly strike is a pretty nice pact to actually have merited.

ps you forgot summoning belt

Thanks, I indeed forgot that one, even though it's only +2 skill it does replace that terribly overpriced summoning earring.

Now I'll be putting this discussion to a close because you were amusing at first, but now your just becoming annoyingly boring with these elementary school comebacks.

You were already defeated in my previous post, and as Lyall is also saying we're swaying too much from the main topic.
If you so much want it, I'll E-peen my summoner gear together with my macros, merits and the spellcast XML I use for it.
Then it's up to you to decide if you want to call me gimp/noob/inexperienced/whatever fancies your ego.
But not in this thread and if you do, please come with some well built replies.

And yes I do own a Tamas ring, because I enjoy playing mage jobs a lot more then I enjoy playing a melee job.
A Raja's would simply be wasted on a player like me.

In closing:
You are not speaking to a person that has only recently joined his first endgame linkshell or has dinged 75 on the job only just a few days ago.
Maybe some things to consider before you decide to write your next reply.


Back to the main topic:
The combination posted by Hellstorm is a really good and cheap alternative for the expensive set of HQ staves or even the not that easy to get Bahamut's.
So if you don't have a chance to get either go for it!

Speaking in numbers, the differences are so minimal that it all comes down to is taste.
Fay+Mythic combos will never replace a Bahamut's staff nor will it be miles ahead of one.
But a Bahamut's shall not fully replace that combo either.

Those that are able to get a Bahamut's or already own one will just need to make the choice between if it's worth carrying 2 extra staves, or just keep it to the one.

 

[Linhjah]

I can appreciate the difference in opinion here, however if you would like to continue to make your points, please ensure you posts are not inflammatory. Name calling, I'm/My shell's better, and NO U!!! arguments need not be posted.

 

[Caelia]

I agree with Lyall. I definitely want to try and go for a crozier if I can luck out and get good augments.

 

[chrono fantasy]

On the second try for augmenting my Fay Crozier, I ended up getting perp. cost -3, bloodpact -4, and pet: MAB+2. I definitely accepted those augments, and I sold off the 4 or so HQ staves I owned. ^^

 

[Shirai]

and I sold off the 4 or so HQ staves I owned. ^^

Seeing you also have blm and rdm leveled...
Why?

 

[Davion]

I got this last night: Not everything I wanted but I'll take it...thanks~

 

[Caelia]

Whoa, congrats! What else did you want?

I ended up getting Perp -3, Pet: MAB+3 (total: +20 with merits and Redingote), Pet: Atk+6. Was hoping for BP - but I'll gladly take this.

 

[Davion]

I was hoping for MAB in that mix but oh well...

 

[Elizara]

Me, I actually have a fey croizer turned in and I also have all hq staves but light and earth (mostly because of blm). (I hope to BLAZES that doesn't disappear with the server smoosh.)

Haven't had any luck finding a group to do that (there hasn't been any shout groups for it for some time on midgard, I hope my luck will be better once it happens), though a friend of mine, Jahn, made it for me so I really want to make sure I get a good group. CTY tried as a shell once (asking a rdm friend of mine to come along)...we failed pretty hard. Not that I think my LS mates are bad, it's just the RDM Jahn got wasn't as merited/well geared as my friend (who wasn't able to help much) so we couldn't sleep anything worth a darn.

Glad to know it'd be worth it. Here's to hoping my fey croizer's still turned in after...

 

[Indalecia]

Need a tank eli? You know damned well I can take it.

 

[Elizara]

Thanks Indy! If we can gather together the help, maybe we can go for it. Don't know how much time we got before merge. Just let me know, I can prolly ask some of my LS mates and the RDM that I wish we'd taken..he roxxors. ^^ Bit crazy(like a fox!) but he rocks. (Oh and a tip that's been passed around my shells; check and see if I'm friended on POL. With the merge, well..do I need to say it? My name isn't gonna change tho.)

...I just wanna win on that one, Jahn made that one as a present before his computer decided to literally fry. So I do NOT want to lose. (Hopefully he'll be back to clean out his dbox before it happens.)

 

[Guppy]

You know damned well I can take it.

Oh yeah, we'll get the whole shell together so we can watch you take it. Nobody takes it quite as stylishly you do. Why, we could even try some of the other zones besides Grauberg-S, since Indalecia is famous for being able to take it anywhere! :woot:

 

[Caelia]

LMAO

And the collective mind of this thread just went into the gutter. Or..maybe it was just mine.

 

[Shirai]

I know mine just did >.<