FBI: Violent crime rate declines again

[Darkdante]

First you said deaths from 9-11. People killed in the twins towers I estimate to be mostly middle aged law abiding citizens. Removing them from the population would cause crime to appear to rise.

Second, you said deaths from our soldiers. Again, this is a sample of young to middle aged law abiding citizens. Their death would not cause a drop in crime, but actually the appearance of an increase becaus their are more crimnals now vs law abiding citizens.

People aged 20-34 years old make up 45% of violent crime victims. Most victimes come from teenagers. You remove alot of people from either of these age groups and you'll get a major drop in crime, you remove from both, well, you figure that out.

I'm not arguing about people from 9-11. Those would I'd assume be mostly law-abiding citizens. But then again money does make you do wierd things and those people are around money all day. I have no statistics on that for or against. However as I've said before, like when people are over seas fighting a war, when you have a death in the family people tend to do less crime. And when you have 5,000 people die, this affects a great many people.

Third, you said deaths from New Orleans. First I want to point out that the entire article is refering to crime rates in 2004. Anything that happened in New Orleans since then is not included in their statistics (Such as hurricane Katrina in 2005. Second, I was under the assumption that the people killed were largely the elderly and disabled who could not escape the flood or were trapped in their homes. The death caused by the storm surage and winds would kill an equal distribution of good citizens and criminals most likely. Third, keep in mind the number of deaths in New Orleans is extremely small compared to the total population of the U.S. 1,281 deaths last I heard. Natural disasters always happen and kill off people (San Francisco Earthquakes for example), not just during Bush's presidency.

I stand corrected Rones.

Fourth, you mention troops deployed over seas. I find this insulting of our military forces to imply that our soldiers are at fault for the crime rate and that their removeal causes a lower average crime rate per person. Our soldiers (for the most part), are shining examples of law abiding citiznes. If you want to claim crime rates drop just because we are at war, I would like to see your source and some statistics to support this. I will also point out that the crime rate has been declining since before the Afghanistan or Iraq war.

You can find it insulting all you want. That doesn't change the facts. Soilders we send are of the younger age, and statistics don't lie. People of younger age are victims of more than half the violent crimes that happens in this country. When you keep them busy sending them to another country to fight a war, rotating thousands at a time. You get violent tendencies out of thier systems, and their familes are affect the same.

And our crime rate has been slowly dropping since 1992.

That is how you think. That does not mean everyone else is required to think that way. Did I blame Clinton for every little thing that went wrong? No. Do I blame him for things he personally decided on that turned out wrong, yes.

Thats not how I think. Thats how it is. Not for every situation, but in Bush's case, YES.

Do you blame the president of a large corporation with hundreds of thousands of employees for you not getting your raise? Only if you are a fool. Blame doesn't jump from the bottom to the top, nor vice versa.

So if that President cuts the budget in your division, its not his fault your boss can't give you a raise? So if that President puts a freeze on pay raises for the company, thats not his fault your boss can't give you a raise? So if that President hires a dumbass who only cares for himself and not you, as your boss, and you never get a raise because he's such an ass, thats not the Presidents fault?

How many more you want Rones? You can be small minded and think only those people directly involved with you affect you, or you can see reality.

Good for Clinton. If you want to blame/credit this on Clinton, that's fine becaues guess what....Bush isn't trying to take credit for this (his name isn't in the article). You (DarkDante) are the one trying to get Bush to claim credit for it and then you are turning around and saying he is wrong for taking credit (which he didn't do in the first place).

Any thing that happens during his administration, HE WILL TAKE CREDIT FOR.

Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

 

[Firestreak]

Darkdante why don't you just shut the fuck up already? You're obviously a moron who doesn't understand a basic logic chain.

Let me give you an example of basic deductive logic.

If all spiders have 8 legs.
A tarantula is a spider.
A tarantula has 8 legs.

Let me give you an example of your logic.

Everything my parents says are wrong.(Incorrect because your parents are morons.)
My parents say George Bush is the cause of everything wrong in the world.
George Bush is the Cause of everything wrongi n the world.

You see, this logic chain is incorrect because the start of the chain was incorrect. Hence you can't start a logic chain with bad facts.

Here's another example of Darkdante logic:

CNN releases a statistic that crime Rate goes down.
People are killed for non-crime related incedents.
Blame Bush because I hate bush. Accuse Bush of being involved with the CNN report even though CNN is a liberal leaning institution.

This is wrong because you're connecting two facts that aren't related.

America is a country of 260 million people, if 1000 people died during Katrina, that is 1/260000 or 3.8 times 10 to the -4th power % of the population. In other words, negligable. And for this negligable population shift you accuse Bush of fudging CNN's numbers over gloating he didn't take credit for.

Have you considered the fact that you are a dumbass for this?

 

[Rones]

You get violent tendencies out of thier systems, and their familes are affect the same.

Actually just the opposite happens. The more people act on violence, the more likely they are to repeat it. The pressure release theory of violence has been proven false by modern psychology.

People aged 20-34 years old make up 45% of violent crime victims. Most victimes come from teenagers. You remove alot of people from either of these age groups and you'll get a major drop in crime, you remove from both, well, you figure that out.

Wait, removing victims is causing a lower crime rate? You are going to have to explain that one to me. A mugger isn't going to care if there are less people on the street, he will still find one to mug. Also, you claim the removeal of 'alot of people' when in reality as Firestreak points out it is a very tiny percentage removeal. Disasters always happens, people are always dying in them, this is part of all statistics even from when the crime rate was higher. You can't claim disasters are only causing crime rate to drop now and not in the past.

You can find it insulting all you want. That doesn't change the facts. Soilders we send are of the younger age, and statistics don't lie.

What facts?! What statistics? You have not supplied any facts, statistics, or sources on refering to crime rates by US soldiers. There are loads of crime statistics here, but none describing what you are claiming.

So if that President cuts the budget in your division, its not his fault your boss can't give you a raise? So if that President puts a freeze on pay raises for the company, thats not his fault your boss can't give you a raise? So if that President hires a dumbass who only cares for himself and not you, as your boss, and you never get a raise because he's such an ass, thats not the Presidents fault?

None of those were the first example that you used which I was refering to. You also leave out many details as to why the company's president had to make those decisions. Fault depends on the reasons for his actions. If he froze pay raises because some natural disaster caused profits to go in the red, the president wouldn't have much choice. Blanket blame on the top most leader(ship) regardless of the circumstances and situation being localized or widespread is foolish. Judge them on their reasons, not the outcome solely.

Any thing that happens during his administration, HE WILL TAKE CREDIT FOR.

Then why isn't he taking credit for this? :roll:

 

[Darkdante]

Darkdante why don't you just shut the fuck up already? You're obviously a moron who doesn't understand a basic logic chain.

Ok lets try and do a basic deductive logic chain a little longer than three tiers.

Darkdante: "Pretty sad when you try to take credit for that saying your stifer "laws" are the reason for it."
Rones: "Unbelievable. It truly doesn't matter what happens, you will find a way to blame it on Bush won't you? "
Darkdante: "Rones get the "gist" of the post first, then respond"
Rones: "I'm not defending Bush because I'm a fanboy, I'm doing it because you are making a very stupid argument. "
Darkdante: Shuts the fuck up.
Rones: "And when you get confronted on it, you run away or let someone else fight for you. Lay off the propaganda and stop posting unless you are going to try to debate an actual issue."
Darkdante: "Though it pains me to dig this up, since i'm being accused of "running away" I guess I gotta respond to this."

Fire can you follow that? Rones wants to make me look like a dumbass OR at least prove that he's right. I did shut the fuck up, he made me look like a dumbass, but he wants me to debate till he is proven right, and so I am.

Use that "deductive logic" that you so claim to have and maybe you could figure the fuck out why I"m still here.

America is a country of 260 million people, if 1000 people died during Katrina, that is 1/260000 or 3.8 times 10 to the -4th power % of the population. In other words, negligable. And for this negligable population shift you accuse Bush of fudging CNN's numbers over gloating he didn't take credit for.

Rones: "Third, you said deaths from New Orleans. First I want to point out that the entire article is refering to crime rates in 2004"
DarkDante: "I stand corrected Rones."

If you had used deductive reasoning at any time when writing your post, you would have figured out that I'm no longer standing by that statement. And its not like it appeared out of the blue either, it only was posted 9 fucking hours before you decided to respond.

As it is Fire your "Fuzzy Logic" while probably making sense to you, is poorly timed and poorly thought out. You could have "owned" me here, its too bad you didnt use your "deductive logic" in your flame.

I'm sure though in this flame you wont have to try hard to "own" me. But since I"m trying for your title as QCDN "Bulldozer" of logic, trudging onward defying all reason and sanity, I'm sure I'll give you a run for you money.

Have you considered the fact that your are a dumbass for this?

Right back at you Fire.

 

[Rones]

And that looks like a good stopping point for this thread. :shock:

 

[Firestreak]

I actually meant he should shut the fuck up in general because it seems like all his posts are like that. He looks at every news article and searches for a reason to bitch about Bush and when he sees anything he jumps on it regardless of if it involves him pulling things out of his ass to support his unbelievably biased opinion. It's like, I'm a Bush supporter normally but it doesn't mean I go around making shit up about democrats whenever the opportunity arises.

 

[Trippyhippy]

I actually meant he should shut the fuck up in general because it seems like all his posts are like that. He looks at every news article and searches for a reason to bitch about Bush and when he sees anything he jumps on it regardless of if it involves him pulling things out of his ass to support his unbelievably biased opinion. It's like, I'm a Bush supporter normally but it doesn't mean I go around making shit up about democrats whenever the opportunity arises.

This is a true statement. However, anyone that will defend bush, will defend him against anything.

I'm fairly convinced you and Rones would defend him even if he got caught using the Job Change Hack . I don't know why, but people love to defend that man. Do you really think he has helped this country more than he has hurt it?

I personally think he is a snide asshole. His belief that he speak to god and god answers back scares me.

A question for Rones:
How is it possible to say bad things about a political party without it being propaganda? There are factual numbers in Dantes clips that can't really be refuted. Why is it propaganda if it's the truth? That includes the article from CNN.com about the decline in crime. Dante had tried to make it out to be something it's not, but the words in the article are the truth.

I personally would say it's from the sharp spike in patriotism caused by the war. People come together in times of crisis.

 

[Direwolf]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/crime.rate/index.html

I wonder if they took into account the massive amount of people that has died in events that also took place in this administration. Like thousand of people dying in 9-11, the iraq war, and the New Orlean floods. Or even the increased amount of people deployed to other countries.

Sure your crime rate will go down when you remove thousands of people from the population.

Its a given. :?

Pretty sad when you try to take credit for that saying your stifer "laws" are the reason for it.

Holy shit you are a fucken ediot. Just fucken wow. 9/11 effected middle to upper class bussiness men for the most part, very unlikely that they would be involved in violent crimes.

Every god damn thing you post is in some way blaming it on Bush, there are over 300 million people how many died due to a hurricane which aparantly is Bushes fault, you know the secret doomsday weapon unleashed upon the poor black community killing about 1500 people, and 9/11 that killed roughly 3000. 4500 out of 300,000,000 is nothing, it is next to nothing it is .000015%.

So now you are claiming the people who died in a SINGLE incedent in NO and another in NY contributed to a decrease in crime over the last 10 years...

You are either a complete jackass or a complete ediot.

 

[Darkdante]

Middle age hmmmm?

Look at the numbers from between 25-34.

 

[Trippyhippy]

That chart is confusing. Which line represents which age group?

Those are also victims only. The age of the victim just shows who is more likely to be a target of violent crime.

 

[Darkdante]

Ya it is confusing. I guess the bigger numbers are at the top.

Isn't victim's how most violent crime statistics are measured anyway? I mean if theres no victim, its not much of a violent crime anyway right?

 

[Trippyhippy]

Right, but the victims don't choose to be victims. Victims are chosen by the criminal. The only thing that chart shows is who is at more of a risk to be the victim of a violent crime, not who is commiting it.

Granted,

Just fucken wow. 9/11 effected middle to upper class bussiness men for the most part, very unlikely that they would be involved in violent crimes.

and that's what you are refering to, but still. I think he meant those would be the ones least likely to initiate violent crimes, even tho that's not what he said (and assuming that is what he meant, he's probably wrong about that, too).

I think 9/11 is the factor that made crime go down, but not by removing people from the population as you had suggested, but by uniting the country against a common foe.

Another more unfotunate side effect of 9/11 would be that arab people are the new "Niggers" of america. Racism has switched from hating black people and beaners to blindly hating arabs and mistakingly hating Indians.

 

[Direwolf]

That graph is by victim not by perepritrator.

So again... How is lower crime rate a bad thing, and how is it somehow being a bad thing blameable on bush.

WHAT are you blaming him for?!!!

Or are you one of those people that think that Bush somehow created a hurricane to obliterate the black population in LA? (Which it did not do, people died granted was a big disaster but deaths extremly blow up by media hype. The tens of thousands dead is a fraction of that, a tiny tiny fraction.)

Lower crime?!! That is a good thing. That is like you posting a flame because somebody lvled up alot in a few days or hit a 100 craft, its good news.


I can see an argument for Trippy thinking that it would help unify the country and lower crime. I do not agree but I can see where he is comming from. I doubt patriotism prevents people from hurting other people though, maybe it opened a few eyes but I am far to cynical about human nature to truely believe that.

 

[Darkdante]

Right, but the victims don't choose to be victims. Victims are chosen by the criminal. The only thing that chart shows is who is at more of a risk to be the victim of a violent crime, not who is commiting it.

If you remove the victim then there is no crime. If you have a herd of elephants and some deer. There are some Lions running around hunting on the deer. Then you remove the deer, do you think animal deaths due to violent causes will continue or decrease?

The assholes may still be around, but if there is no one to prey upon then no crime to commit. Also if thier mentality is changed because of family members in wars, or have been subjected to natural disastors, they will be less inclined to commit crime.

So again... How is lower crime rate a bad thing, and how is it somehow being a bad thing blameable on bush.

WHAT are you blaming him for?!!!

Did I say lower crime was a bad thing?

What am I blaming him for? Good question. What am I blaming him for Direwolf?

Or are you one of those people that think that Bush somehow created a hurricane to obliterate the black population in LA? (Which it did not do, people died granted was a big disaster but deaths extremly blow up by media hype. The tens of thousands dead is a fraction of that, a tiny tiny fraction.)

I posted this in the begining of the thread.

Did you even read the post? Where in this post did I say that Bush caused the floods?

That is like you posting a flame because somebody lvled up alot in a few days or hit a 100 craft, its good news.

See this is EXACTLY why the flame as you put it exists. Did Bush lvl up to 100 craft? Who did?

 

[Biggy!]

"If you remove the victim then there is no crime"

i really dont know where your going with this.........so the only way to save all the children from the pedofiles is to get rid of every child on the planet =/, and just let all of the pedofiles run free?

i dont get your logic...at all