Fffffuuucccccc****** Mmmmmeeeee BANNED -.-

Firestreak said:
Cheating is cheating, bub. Don't argue semantics, argue that there are different kinds of cheats.

I think people aren't hypocrite(although many are) as much as people are just plain silenced. We all know so many tolerate it yet I'm the only one actually willing to explain why I just plainly don't give a shit.
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There's a difference between not caring and what you're doing. Not caring is me not caring that OH apparently had people fleehacking to do some endgame fights that were force-spawned and I wasn't a part of(although I did lose some respect for them); you are trying to justify the use of those fleehacks and say it's perfectly alright even if you weren't the one actually using them. Most people won't care except on general principle that others cheat unless they are directly harmed from said cheating(like bots); but stop trying to say it's perfectly moral to do so.
 
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Firestreak said:
Cheating is cheating, bub. Don't argue semantics, argue that there are different kinds of cheats.
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Nah. Don't argue it in those terms just because it's beneficial to you.
They are all Terms of Service violations.

Shouting racial slurs in Al Zahbi: Terms of service violation.
Using a tool to fleekite something: Terms of service violation.
Using windower: Terms of service violation.

All of these things mean you have broken the guidelines set forth by Square-Enix. Only one means you have cheated.
 
Bajaratt said:
There's a difference between not caring and what you're doing. Not caring is me not caring that OH apparently had people fleehacking to do some endgame fights that were force-spawned and I wasn't a part of; you are trying to justify the use of those fleehacks and say it's perfectly alright even if you weren't the one actually using them. Most people won't care except on general principle that others cheat unless they are directly harmed from said cheating(like bots); but stop trying to say it's perfectly moral to do so.

Cheating = loser LS and very difficult to respect.
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Morality is by definition-

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

What you seem to be arguing, and I will concede is that flee hacks are not respectable, in that, they decrease the amount of skill and manpower(mostly decrease manpower) needed to accomplish a task, and therefore take away the accomplishment of the task. What I don't see is where that becomes immoral. Not saying you need to respect the people who do it, not saying you should do it, not saying these people are Mother Theresa, but I don't see where morality/immorality come into play.
 
Garvin said:
Nah. Don't argue it in those terms just because it's beneficial to you.
They are all Terms of Service violations.

Shouting racial slurs in Al Zahbi: Terms of service violation.
Using a tool to fleekite something: Terms of service violation.
Using windower: Terms of service violation.

All of these things mean you have broken the guidelines set forth by Square-Enix. Only one means you have cheated.
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1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal.. To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

Cheating is breaking the rules. If you want to specify further to a specific form of cheating, feel free to. No need to alter the meaning of words.
 
Firestreak said:
Morality is by definition-

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

What you seem to be arguing, and I will concede is that flee hacks are not respectable, in that, they decrease the amount of skill and manpower(mostly decrease manpower) needed to accomplish a task, and therefore take away the accomplishment of the task. What I don't see is where that becomes immoral. Not saying you need to respect the people who do it, not saying you should do it, not saying these people are Mother Theresa, but I don't see where morality/immorality come into play.
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Quoting myself here to put here what I'm getting at. I stuck with my LS til the end because to me that was the moral thing to do - to stick by an LS even when things are bad. That is to say, my LS could have wiped 10 times in a row to Kirin, and I would not have quit because I was a member and I owed an obligation. I didn't argue that it was a great thing to use 3rd party programs, nor it is a sign of skill or respectability.

Rather - if I saw it as unethical, by extention I'd see myself as unethical for being tolerant of it. But I didn't see it as a question of morals rather if it was a question of being a little shameful and very risky as far as people getting in trouble with GMs. Therefore I didn't prefer it but I didn't see it as a reason to dump my LS. Rather I saw it as unethical to leave an LS that gave me W legs, Haidates, Kirin Osode.

This brings me back to my original point - Go to War, Help your mother? We all have choices to make when we live our lives and there will always be people out there that think your choice was the wrong one. So make your own choices, based on what feels right to YOU, and don't assume just because someone's choice doesn't sit right with you it makes them an immoral person.
 
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Firestreak said:
I think people aren't hypocrite(although many are) as much as people are just plain silenced. We all know so many tolerate it yet I'm the only one actually willing to explain why I just plainly don't give a shit.
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No, you're the only one pretending to be standing on some moral high ground (or at least some gray area) while benefiting from cheats. Most people tolerate cheaters in their ls because they benefit from it, period. It's not because they see it as fair or moral.

ps - Fire you're the one that brought up morality with your example, not anyone else
 
Firestreak said:
Morality is by definition-

The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

What you seem to be arguing, and I will concede is that flee hacks are not respectable, in that, they decrease the amount of skill and manpower(mostly decrease manpower) needed to accomplish a task, and therefore take away the accomplishment of the task. What I don't see is where that becomes immoral. Not saying you need to respect the people who do it, not saying you should do it, not saying these people are Mother Theresa, but I don't see where morality/immorality come into play.
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I'll grant that you're at least partially correct, there are different standards of morality, but you're ignoring the existence of universal moral truths, which transced boundries of different moral cultures. Things like murder and theft are considered immoral and are outlawed everywhere, because everyone(except crazy/mentally deficient people) agree that those actions are wrong. As such, the community as a whole doesn't like hacking; even if they use the windower or .dat changes, hacking is considered worse.

As far as your definition goes, "standards of right or good conduct" is where flee hacking falls as immoral. The standards would be set by both SE and the community as a whole, so fleehacking breaks the ToS by being a third-party program AND it violates community standards as giving people an huge advantage over others. And before you go into how vague the community would be, I mean the general things, no mpk, no stealing mobs, no hacking, etc. While not everyone follows those standards, the vast majority agree with them.

Regardless of all of this, weren't you the one who brought up morality in this discussion regarding cheating? You were using morality as a justification for how cheating is ok, but now you don't see how it comes into play?
 
I cheat plenty in offline games. Sometimes out of laziness, sometimes out of perfectionism (wanting some sort of "perfect stats" that can't be legitimately obtained, like max stats in FF9). And so on. But I never see it as anything brag-worthy. Oh, look at me, look at all the nice stuff I've "accomplished". Oh, how did you do it? *cough* GameShark *cough* ActionReplay *cough* CodeBreaker *cough*

Your GTA is a good example. I have two saves for that in Vice City. One where I've cheerfully cheated (both CodeBreaker and in-game cheats) and racked up impressively high stats and amazing "accomplishments" and such. That's fun to look at the numbers. That's about it. The other is the save I've actually made it a point to work at and never touch a cheat code for, and while the accomplishments are way less impressive, they actually are my accomplishments.

And let me tell you, it was a lot more satisfying to go around enjoying infinite ammo from legitimate 100% completion of the game, than it was to simply cheat it in. :P

Ultimately, however, the above? That only affects me. It's an offline game, and the only way it'll ever affect someone else is if I'm talking to them about it, bragging about what I've done, comparing accomplishments, etc.

This is not an offline game. If something benefits me in a way I don't deserve, it wouldn't *only* benefit me. If it were something like claiming an NM, not only would I unfairly be benefiting, but some non-cheating legit person would be missing out on something they would've had a fair chance at, in a fair competition. Even if it wasn't directly taking something away from someone else, there'd still be the difference in how valuable the item was perceived.

Wearing a Sha'ir Manteel was a lot more impressive before last Christmas, if you want an example. :P
 
Stouter said:
No, you're the only one pretending to be standing on some moral high ground (or at least some gray area) while benefiting from cheats. Most people tolerate cheaters in their ls because they benefit from it, period. It's not because they see it as fair or moral.
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When I go to the food court and I eat a big hamburger I'm tolerating that a cow was killed in order for me to eat this. There are people out there that smear themselves in blood and protest meat processing facilities. Any of you that eat meat should realize that by eating meat, while you don't kill the cow directly, you are immoral if killing animals for food is immoral.

People who think it's immoral to kill animals for food becomes vegetarians. People who think using hax are immoral don't associate with people who do. Sure there may be some internal confliction, but at the end of the day most of us love a nice big burger with lettuce and pickles and ketchup and mayo.
 
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Ew, mayo.

Edit: where's the bacon? I like my farm animals to die in small groups for my meals.
 
Bajaratt said:
I'll grant that you're at least partially correct, there are different standards of morality, but you're ignoring the existence of universal moral truths, which transced boundries of different moral cultures. Things like murder and theft are considered immoral and are outlawed everywhere, because everyone(except crazy/mentally deficient people) agree that those actions are wrong. As such, the community as a whole doesn't like hacking; even if they use the windower or .dat changes, hacking is considered worse.

As far as your definition goes, "standards of right or good conduct" is where flee hacking falls as immoral. The standards would be set by both SE and the community as a whole, so fleehacking breaks the ToS by being a third-party program AND it violates community standards as giving people an huge advantage over others. And before you go into how vague the community would be, I mean the general things, no mpk, no stealing mobs, no hacking, etc. While not everyone follows those standards, the vast majority agree with them.

Regardless of all of this, weren't you the one who brought up morality in this discussion regarding cheating? You were using morality as a justification for how cheating is ok, but now you don't see how it comes into play?
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The QCDN vocal community seems to have a problem with flee hacking, it would appear to me people in game as far as I can tell don't really give a shit. Nobody comes here and says "I buy gil" but a huge amount of people do it. It's kind of like the kid who goes to a ultra liberal college and leaves feeling as if everyone in America hates republicans.

Vilurum said:
I cheat plenty in offline games. Sometimes out of laziness, sometimes out of perfectionism (wanting some sort of "perfect stats" that can't be legitimately obtained, like max stats in FF9). And so on. But I never see it as anything brag-worthy. Oh, look at me, look at all the nice stuff I've "accomplished". Oh, how did you do it? *cough* GameShark *cough* ActionReplay *cough* CodeBreaker *cough*

Your GTA is a good example. I have two saves for that in Vice City. One where I've cheerfully cheated (both CodeBreaker and in-game cheats) and racked up impressively high stats and amazing "accomplishments" and such. That's fun to look at the numbers. That's about it. The other is the save I've actually made it a point to work at and never touch a cheat code for, and while the accomplishments are way less impressive, they actually are my accomplishments.

And let me tell you, it was a lot more satisfying to go around enjoying infinite ammo from legitimate 100% completion of the game, than it was to simply cheat it in. :P

Ultimately, however, the above? That only affects me. It's an offline game, and the only way it'll ever affect someone else is if I'm talking to them about it, bragging about what I've done, comparing accomplishments, etc.

This is not an offline game. If something benefits me in a way I don't deserve, it wouldn't *only* benefit me. If it were something like claiming an NM, not only would I unfairly be benefiting, but some non-cheating legit person would be missing out on something they would've had a fair chance at, in a fair competition. Even if it wasn't directly taking something away from someone else, there'd still be the difference in how valuable the item was perceived.

Wearing a Sha'ir Manteel was a lot more impressive before last Christmas, if you want an example. :P
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In that specific case you would be correct - in that if someone cheated in order to claim a mob, causing someone else to be unable to claim that mob because they were playing legit, that's highly immoral.
 
They don't really give a shit about OH fleehacking kirin, probably, but at the same time I can't imagine people would want to sign up to a LS that was known to employ hacks if they were aware of it before hand. If they're already a member, then they obviously don't care and likely because they want to get their loot like Stouter said.

I technically fall into the category of people who don't care. I don't like it, I'll admit I don't like it, but I really don't care if your or anyone else's LS has to resort to fleehacking to kill force-spawned mobs; but then, you'll have to forgive me if I consider my or any LS that doesn't employ hacks to do the same thing as substantially better than one that does, in terms of both skill and respectability. I especially don't want to hear about someone who used hacks to do something brag about how they killed a mob or the gear they got via hacking; but then I very rarely do. That's mainly from gil buyers but my position is the same.
 
Now, let's take this to its conclusion.

Your bolded definition:
Firestreak said:
Cheat:
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
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Emphasis mine.

Now let's take mine.
Garvin said:
Violate:
3.a breach, infringement, or transgression, as of a law, rule, promise, etc.: He was fined for a traffic violation.
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Let's extend this to some real world examples to make this easier to understand.

You and I are playing a board game.
A rule of this board game is that a player moves the number of spaces rolled on a die on their turn. I decide to move an extra space. I've just cheated at the game we were playing.

Now, if we're playing this game, and I start spouting insults and racial remarks (for example) at you, which game rules have I violated? I've possibly broken laws, and may find myself in trouble (and therefore lose the game by default, lawl), but I have not done anything that can be considered cheating at the game.

It's not the most perfect example, but it should hopefully get the point across. One of the rules of the game FFXI is that characters move X speed unless Y or Z. To go against that is undeniably cheating.

One of the rules of the Terms of Service (Coincidentally, only really intended as a broad protection against the first) states that no programs that affect FFXI's application are to be used. Yes, it is still currently a bannable offense, you will never see me argue against that. However, it is not cheating.
 
Bajaratt said:
They don't really give a shit about OH fleehacking kirin, probably, but at the same time I can't imagine people would want to sign up to a LS that was known to employ hacks if they were aware of it before hand. If they're already a member, then they obviously don't care and likely because they want to get their loot like Stouter said.

I technically fall into the category of people who don't care. I don't like it, I'll admit I don't like it, but I really don't care if your or anyone else's LS has to resort to fleehacking to kill force-spawned mobs; but then, you'll have to forgive me if I consider my or any LS that doesn't employ hacks to do the same thing as substantially better than one that does, in terms of both skill and respectability. I especially don't want to hear about someone who used hacks to do something brag about how they killed a mob or the gear they got via hacking; but then I very rarely do. That's mainly from gil buyers but my position is the same.
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I can agree with that and then come back to this original thread and be sympathetic that a guy was banned and not judge him to be a bad person because he used 3rd party programs. I feel that by condemning him you're judging him as morally bad which is why I made my argument strictly in terms of morality.
 
Garvin said:
Now, let's take this to its conclusion.

Your bolded definition:

Emphasis mine.

Now let's take mine.


Let's extend this to some real world examples to make this easier to understand.

You and I are playing a board game.
A rule of this board game is that a player moves the number of spaces rolled on a die on their turn. I decide to move an extra space. I've just cheated at the game we were playing.

Now, if we're playing this game, and I start spouting insults and racial remarks (for example) at you, which game rules have I violated? I've possibly broken laws, and may find myself in trouble (and therefore lose the game by default, lawl), but I have not done anything that can be considered cheating at the game.

It's not the most perfect example, but it should hopefully get the point across. One of the rules of the game FFXI is that characters move X speed unless Y or Z. To go against that is undeniably cheating.

One of the rules of the Terms of Service (Coincidentally, only really intended as a broad protection against the first) states that no programs that affect FFXI's application are to be used. Yes, it is still currently a bannable offense, you will never see me argue against that. However, it is not cheating.
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It's against the game rules to spout off racial insults to me by definition of the terms of service you agreed to when signing up to this game. Those are the rules. Breaking the rules is then cheating. Within the confines of cheating, many different players stick the line of right and wrong in different places. Some on this board have argued that even using windower is wrong. Some people use claim bots. Some people say just windower is ok. Some people say it's ok just to use TPParty, or distancer plugin, or flee hack just to get to camp.

My conclusion is, it's ok if you're not hurting anyone. Doesn't mean I seek out cheaters, or recruit people, or do it myself. It means, if you're not hurting anyone I am not going to consider you a bad person. Myself, I don't even use windower - I didn't even use windower back before I played on PS2. Does that mean I should judge all of you that use windower harshly?
 
Firestreak said:
I think that people who get all hot and bothered over people using 3rd party programs in ways that don't effect others negatively need to re-examine their priorities in life. It's almost like criticising me for cheating on Grand Theft Auto cause I love to run around murdering people and don't like collecting guns on my own. Just how I see it.
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And what would this include... Windower.... and .. thats it. Someone else put it best, this is not a solo game, and any time you do something to unfairly give you an edge, you effect everyone. It's like saying athletes who use steroids don't hurt any of their fellow athletes.
 
Ewok said:
And what would this include... Windower.... and .. thats it. Someone else put it best, this is not a solo game, and any time you do something to unfairly give you an edge, you effect everyone. It's like saying athletes who use steroids don't hurt any of their fellow athletes.
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Depends. A weight lifter who uses steroids but only lifts in his basement doesn't hurt his fellow athletes. A baseball player who uses steroids to beat the other team is hurting that team.
 
Firestreak I respect your opinion and you have well thought out points I respect that. But to say people who speak out strongly against cheaters are first time MMO players is wrong.

I can't stand cheaters and I have been playing MMOs since Ultima Online was beta and thats the first MMO Ive beta tested and played AC EQ WoW and a few others to name a few. I will agree with you other MMOs have cheats that make FF look like childs play but that doesnt make th eones used here any less severe.

Players have a desire to shape a game to what they want it to be an din a single player game thats fine. But in an MMO you play in someone else's sandbox by thier rules and if you can not respect thier rules then you should be ready to accept any actions taken against you.

in an MMO if you can do something that a normal player can not through normal game mechanics its cheating no matter what moral arument is placed on it.
 
Firestreak said:
Depends. A weight lifter who uses steroids but only lifts in his basement doesn't hurt his fellow athletes. A baseball player who uses steroids to beat the other team is hurting that team.
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Actually if that weight lifter actively competes in contests and such (which in my opinion would make him an athlete, otherwise he's just someone who "works out"), then he is hurting his fellow athletes.
 
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