FFXI, The Anti-Gil

The problem is that many MANY crafts are rarely done at any sort of profit at all. Put an easy way for people to get something equally good from an NPC at the same price or cheaper, and the crafters WOULD take a hit.
 
The particular craft items I am referring to are made with a significantly high margin of profit, and again, a crafter could always farm their own materials for near 100% profit on mostly anything. IMO, there should be extremely little or no profit when a crafter buys materials anyhow.

Having a control factor for where prices could go would force lower material prices which would be good for crafters, not a detriment. If the amount of profit a crafter made on x item was 1000 gil per item now, and 1000 item per after such a change, the crafter would not be losing on anything. In fact it would be a gain because it would cost less to place said item on the AH.
 
Liefe said:
You can make 50-100k/hr without breaking a sweat in this game.
I'm not going to hand-hold walkthrough it but you can make bank as a level 10 doing it right.
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Mind sharing at least the basic of that, out of leveling THF to 14, RDM, BLM, WHM to 7, I’ve only made 100k. I’ve also never heard anyone make that claim even at high levels. 60k an hour is about the highest I hear for high level farming.
 
I somwwhat disagree with makin these higher lvl items more available. Thats the reason why they call them rare items increasing the drop rate oor pop rate will only eventually make them more common items. You also have to think increasing the pop/drop rate will not stop ppl from monopolizing nm/hnm it will make more ppl monopolize and more packet sniffing and more mpkin. I really think that making more alternate ways to make money will help more. Or just say fuck it if it was up to me I would change every nm/hnm pop times and wait times make it harder to find out when some of these nm/hnm are gonna pop. Someone said to just buy gill yourself and not let it circulate in the economy use it to give a huge plvl to a craft or 2
 
You might have kind of a low amount of MMO experience so maybe that's why "more ways to make $$" seems like the best option. More ways to make money when people are still rely on the same bread-n-butter items to use only stimulates inflation.

If Erase was 500k at NPCs, would you ever see a scroll of Erase for sale for 700,800k? Nope. If you could purchase Utsusemi from the quest NPC once you finished the quest for 200k, would you ever see it for sale for 500k? Nope. Why? The game is actively enforcing a price limit for certain items.

If they made a 42 DEF +10HP -10 MP +8 ACC/EVD +2 DEX +1 STR -2 MND -1 VIT -20 FIRE and WIND harness for sale that was RA/EX usable at level 59 for 2.5m at an NPC, would you buy it instead of a Scorpion Harness? You wouldn't be able to resell it, granted, but it would be a viable alternative to the current item ingame and the gil used to purchase it would be removed fromt h gam indfinitely.

These are pretty much the only long term methods that SE can take to guarantee gil is being removed from the system and to take on inflation/gilselling/buying.
 
Krisy said:
i really like that training npc thing. that would rock..

its like an apprentiship that you undergo. Say like 5k / 1 skill lvl.
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It would make more sense on a sliding scale, with low levels being cheap to train up and higher levels costing progressively more. You could also make it dependent on your job's skill with the weapon...
 
Liefe said:
The particular craft items I am referring to are made with a significantly high margin of profit, and again, a crafter could always farm their own materials for near 100% profit on mostly anything. IMO, there should be extremely little or no profit when a crafter buys materials anyhow.
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I always get annoyed when people display that opinion. Either there is a profit to crafting the materials from ah into the final product, or the crafter is better off just selling the materials he farmed and not even crafting with it. The only thing you are doing by farming all your materials is mixing farming with crafting. Typically you would be better off farming something of better gil per time invest, selling that on ah, and buying what you need to craft with off ah than specifically farming what you need. Again though, this just diminishes to your profit coming from farming and not actually the crafting.

Also, why make it rare/ex? The money has already been taken out of the economy. Lets not create a stagnant ah by making all the best gear rare/ex from npcs.

Money for skill ups would never float. Skilling is a huge time sink for SE which means more money. They would definitly not want to make a short cut for that.
monopolizing nm/hnm it will make more ppl monopolize and more packet sniffing and more mpkin.
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How would one ls monopolize all the hnm's if they were all poping every hour for example? With more pops it would ease compition, not make it worse as there would be much more to go around.
I really think that making more alternate ways to make money will help more.
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Have you heard of inflation?
I somwwhat disagree with makin these higher lvl items more available. Thats the reason why they call them rare items increasing the drop rate oor pop rate will only eventually make them more common items
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The demand on these items has increased drastically as more people reach upper lvls, yet supply has remained constant. Thus, it wouldn't be making them more common, just bringing them back down to a rarity that is more represntative of the percentage it use to be (eg: 25% of high lvls get item X per month). For example, in the older days with less high lvls, a large percentage of high lvls could get their rare items, yet as the population increases, the percentage gaining their items decreases. I feel the rate of item production has really fallen behind the growth rate of high lvl population.
Pascal said:
I’ve also never heard anyone make that claim even at high levels. 60k an hour is about the highest I hear for high level farming.
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Hehe, you missed a great thread a while back. many claimed to earn 100-150k an hour. :lol: Many claim it's possible, yet I haven't seen a real one that didn't involve a high lvl craft, lucky nm camping, or bcnms.
 
It really isn't that hard to get gil in this game, you just need to be lvl 50ish.

Seeing as how with all 6 basic jobs you really don't need all that much gil untill at least lvl 60.

What happens at lvl 60? You take a break from lvling and go Mine/Harvest/Log/Garden. That's where all the real money is in this game.

I personally made about 10 mil in about 3 weeks playin about 5 hours per day about 4-5 days a week.

How?

If I told you, I'd have to kill you. However, all I did was farm for gil, and I am sooooo tired of doin it now I could scream. However, I did Finish all Gobbiebags, Mogsafe Quests, bought a pentinent's rope, lvled a craft to 25, Maxed out my fame everywhere, and bought some gifts (that total about 1.5 mil) for my RL Friends that play.

I do however agree with the whole WoW Soul Binding thing. But you might notice that we already have Items like that in this game. FF calls them exclusive. Like the Moldavite Earring, the Attack Jerkin, all the AF gear, so on and so forth. There should be many more items like this. Perhaps a few in particular would be The Emporers Hairpin, Monster Signa, Marys Horn, Rabbit Charm, Leapin Lizzy's Boots(or whatever). Things from a low lvl mob that you can kill by yourself should almost always be EX. If it takes a Giant Group of poeple to kill it tho, it needs to be tradeable so that group can sell it and split the money evenly.

Edit: btw Rones, my farming method dosen't involve a high lvl craft, lucky nm camping, or bcnms.
 
Ok, now, I haven't seen this suggested anywhere, but, I'ma toss this out.
A while a go, EQII announced they were doing some kind of station thing where you could sell money, characters etc, via SOE.
[The article is here http://eq2players.station.sony.com/news_archive.vm?id=457&section=News&month=current ]

Basicaly, what it seems to say to me is, they said "Yes, we know people do this, hey, we realize people make money of this, ok, lets get in there and make money on it then"

Now, it doesn't seem like SOE is making gold out of thin air and selling it. Theyre just facilitating the sales. But what if SE does a similar service just for gil. You give them a dollar, they give you 100k gil.

I'm not to sure what IGE sells for, but lets say this is drasticaly less then IGE. Ok, first, SE has hurt IGE profits by offering gil cheap, so IGE has to drop prices, or lose business. But hey, wait a sec, wheres SE get the gil? Well, probably the same place that lonely NPC in bastok who sells items from saruta go the gil to pay for my mercury [And I'm certain that except that one week, he never sold a thing in his life]. SE makes it. Gil, its a bit of data, they just gotta say "Ok, hit the button, bam, million gil right there, bam 3 mil, bam kick it up a notch!". With this power then, SE just doesn't need to buy from Gilsellers.

Well hmm, Gilsellers can sell to IGE still, but IGE isn't selling because now, SE is taking all the business. Sure, they can go camp stroper chyme, but where it once was worth a good week of meals, now its barely enough to buy a soda. The gilsellers now have to find some new way to support there families as IGE has decided its no longer a good idea to sell Gil. OR, now IGE has to sell at drasticaly lower prices, paying gil sellers less money, thus, the gil sellers are better off getting a job in the real world, or going off to some other MMO.

Well, now we have people just buying up all the gil they need. I haven't done any economics classes or anything so I'm not to clear on the repercusions of this, but, I've been thinking on the idea.

The items have to come from somewhere still, and so, people can still sell the item.
Sure, you can go camp the VE [someone has to for there to be a Emp. Pin], but, most likely, you can pay 5 bucks and get it. I guess that wouldn't be so bad a thing. And people could camp the VE, sell the drop, and get gil, but its no longer worth MONEY, you can't resell it for how much ya bought the gil for originaly. Whos going to buy it, IGE? Well, if SE is selling for less than IGE, IGE certainly isn't going to pay say, the 1 dollar for each 100k.

[PS, what about character selling btw, I almost never hear about it on forums, but I know it happens. You can go to google and find a bunch of sites on it. Is this also not a bad thing, hurting the gaming experience of anyone who PTs with these novices in the body of a level 40, 50, 70, and on top of that, gil on the character is usualy included in the package, so goes with the gil selling biz to, huh? I guess that would be the only way that gilselling could continue in what I suggested above? Hmm...]
[PPS. If this post seems a bit choppy, terribly sorry, I don't post in many forums often, not very used to how I should structure in a forum]
 
I'm fairly sure EQ2 isn't printing gold/plat, they're simply adding a second AH-type area where players can put up items for cash via SoE's secure transactions instead of in-game currency. All transactions with it are player-to-player, not player-to-NPC.

And this whole 'SE selling gil' thing is a stupid idea, even on the base levels. They've been trying to remove gil from the economy for months now (Fishing buy price nerfs, Ink price nerf, AH tax increase, more guild point sinks, the list goes on.) Printing gil out of thin air would crash this economy faster than post-WWI Germany.

EDIT: As an aside, I see no problem with Square introducing a system much like what SoE is doing with EQ2. As long as they can guarantee safe, secure transfers I think it'd be an interesting way to AH high-value stuff.
 
Answa~ said:
The sad thing is that SE will never listen to any of you.
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You are %100000000 correct. SE will not give a rats ass what its customer base wants. They couldn't care less.
 
Liefe wrote:
The particular craft items I am referring to are made with a significantly high margin of profit, and again, a crafter could always farm their own materials for near 100% profit on mostly anything. IMO, there should be extremely little or no profit when a crafter buys materials anyhow.


I always get annoyed when people display that opinion. Either there is a profit to crafting the materials from ah into the final product, or the crafter is better off just selling the materials he farmed and not even crafting with it. The only thing you are doing by farming all your materials is mixing farming with crafting. Typically you would be better off farming something of better gil per time invest, selling that on ah, and buying what you need to craft with off ah than specifically farming what you need. Again though, this just diminishes to your profit coming from farming and not actually the crafting.
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ty rones, farming your materials for a craft DOESNT save you money PERIOD!
 
Wow... lots of positive replies and interesting thoughts.

I agree with Rones in the sense that SE would never allow a pay for skillup system, as SE obviously wants the game to be difficult and take up as much time as possible.

As far as farming for your crafting ingredients go...

What you're referring to is "opportunity cost". Lets say you farm... 15k an hour. If you're a higher level crafter you can make more money with the same amount of time, therefore you are losing money. Its the same reason surgeons dont cook for money, they can make much more money in the same time doing what they're already proficient at.

However, for low level crafters with little gil this isn't always the case, as low level crafting only has a few synths that profit can be gained on, and at some point you must lose gil to continue skilling up, therefore to have the required ingredients you are required to farm.

Its somewhat confusing, maybe because I'm bad at explaining it.
 
Haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if anyone else pointed this out...

Doing something like this won't work. It just won't.

Do you know why prices are high? Because the item is rare. There is not enough for everyone to have one. So, how is it decided who gets the item and who doesn't?

Gil. Whoever's willing to spend the most on an item gets it. That SHOULD be common sense for everyone. If you make gil more common, it just means that the value of 1 gil goes down by the same ammount. Nothing changes, except that everyone loses part of their current money.

Prices go up because people are willing to spend more to get a specific item. There's only two ways to keep item prices from going up: get rid of a lot of people's gil, or make the item more common.

Fixing an item's price also doesn't work, as people can just go around the AH. But since I want to make an example of this, so lets say that the GMs ban people that go around the system to sell an item for more than what it's worth. Extreme, I know, but this is just an example.

Mike, Joe, and Larry all want an empy pin. The fixed price of it is 500k. All three of them have 500k and are willing to spend that much on it. One goes up for sale on the AH, and whoever gets there first gets it. Let's say that Larry does. Mike and Joe are left out, because no matter how much more money they might have had, they can't find someone to sell it.

And the number of people that want an item is increasing faster than the item is made. So now there's 4 people that want it: Mike, Joe, Fred, and Bob. Let's say that someone found a way to go around the system and sell an item for more, without anyone getting in trouble. They offer a hairpin for 600k. Mike, Joe, and Fred don't want to pay the extra, but Bob does.

Soon word of this "exploit" gets out, and now people are trying to sell hairpins for more. Mike and Joe both decide they can buy a hairpin at 600k, but Fred doesn't want to spend that much. Unfortunately for Fred, the item price won't come down until people aren't willing to spend 600k on it any more. It's more likely that people will be willing to spend even higher prices to make sure that they get it now, instead of wait and hope that they find a buyer that'll sell for a lower price.
 
Squee said:
Answa~ said:
The sad thing is that SE will never listen to any of you.
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You are %100000000 correct. SE will not give a rats ass what its customer base wants. They couldn't care less.
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only partially correct :D they won't give a rats ass as long as it doesn't effect profit!
 
More gils (or easier to get) = higher prices

This has been said over and over and explained many times, so I'm not gonna go over it again! :)

Having NPCs sell alternatives to high priced crafted item? Now that has to be the stupidest thing, sorry. Crafters already make money on HQ versions, not on regular. Regulars are most of the time a decent loss, that's why it's such a pain to level a craft. Consummables, like food and ammos might be an exception, but even then, most of the time you need the HQ2 or 3 for 66 or 99 units to make some money.

So then, why would someone spend millions and hours to level a craft when people can buy alternative at NPC? To save a few gils on items they can use? Never gonna make it up for the investment in leveling a craft. So it's simple, you will see a lot less, if any, people leveling a craft.

Let's be honnest, you don't level a craft to make a few gils on common recipes, you level to make that HQ version of the money maker, like staves and Hawker's knives.

If you take that away, no reason to level a craft, other then personnal goal. So you would see a lot less, if any, people leveling craft. So what would happen do you think?

No crafters = no use for farmed material / crystals Granted, price would go down, but still, no one would buy those beehive chips. What other use are they then crafting? And crystals.... you would see the sales drop drastically. And it would not go back up, cause unlike other items, people would not wait for prices to go down, they just won't need them.

Now, if you want a free market, were the simplest rule rule of economic applies (i.e. price is determined by what someone is willing to pay for) it is quite simple to achieve, take out the price history.

With no price history, there is no way to jack a price or undercut it. If you farm or craft something, you will put it on AH to what YOU want for it, what you think is a fair compensation for your work. Then someone truly bids what HE thinks is fair, reflecting how much he wants the item. If both prices/ bid meets, then you have a sale. If not, bidder might be willing to try again for a bit more or seller might try to cut to get rid of it.

The only thing is, if someone comes along 5 minutes later and put the same item on AH, the prices might be totally differents, lower or higher. But it would not create a precedent, a trend (like Empy Hairpin).

Let's say I buy my material to make ... a bloody blade. Let's say my cost was 25K and I make a regular one. I may try and sell it for 27-30K, making a bit of profit. If I get a HQ, maybe I'll try to sell it for 35-40K. Now, I may not get that price, it all depends if someone is willing to pay that much for the item.

Anyway, I'm just mumbling on now, but I'd like to know what you guys think.
 
Zhaoyun said:
Elemmire said:
only partially correct they won't give a rats ass as long as it doesn't effect profit!
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Honestly, would you?
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maybe.. I dunno... depended on the responses I guess... hehe (in all fairness.. prolly not)
 
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