FFXI, windower and its plugins

Cancel isn't buggy and XML files can suck a fat dick for all I care. I've made my spellcast all-in-one wonder file and I don't ever want to look at another XML file in my life.
 
I wouldnt' really call issuing a command "automation". Yes, it does reduce the effort needed that could be done through a sequence of events (++RE) but it's not running that sequence either. It is just like typing "/ws Eviceration <t>" into your command line.

If you can't differentiate the difference between an automated fishbot that reads incoming data and autoninously interacts with the game and a issues multiple commands to aquire preprogrammed desired results with no intervention from the user, and a command, then you probably wont be worth continuing this conversation with.

It's like those retards that were saying Parsing was hacking even though parsers don't even touch the game except to read, and anything the parser was doing could be done with a calculator and a notepad by just reading the log files...

But hey, if you want to call me a cheater, that's fine too. I really don't give two shits to be honest; your moral/ethical standing is just more rigid than mine I guess. If you consider the game to be "How Well" you manipulate the interface, rather than how you deal with situations, then so be it. To me, the game is about content, not the controller I use...
You are right. It's not worth continuing the discussion with you as well. You aren't going to change your stance, and neither am I. Not only that, but I'm perfectly aware I'm in the minority here, and I'm perfectly accepting of that. It's been a slippery slope so far, so frankly, I don't have any hope for the collective morality. The fact that there are at least some people who still realize even some of it is cheating is enough for me.
 
Cancel isn't buggy and XML files can suck a fat dick for all I care. I've made my spellcast all-in-one wonder file and I don't ever want to look at another XML file in my life.

Cancel is buggy...
Well more accurately Windower is buggy towards Cancel, and shuts it down a lot. Even Aikar finally admitted there was a problem wiht the handling. It's one of the things addressed in 3.4 aparently.
 
I wonder if anyone got caught and banned for using windowers or plugins? Is it violating the SE rules?
 
I wonder if anyone got caught and banned for using windowers or plugins? Is it violating the SE rules?
They never have. Those who claim to have been banned for them are lying to try to hide the fact that they hacked and got caught. There's no way to know you're using them unless you talking about them in game.
 
I still don't get the justification that "Oh, it's unencrypted, so it's okay for me to look at it, despite whether Square-Enix is showing me!" It's sort of like "Oh, this guy's door was unlocked, I'm just going to walk on in!" Especially distance. I'm both amazed and depressed at the amount people will both defend and justify their cheats, and the fact that they came bundled with windower probably was to blame.

Way I see it:

1. It would be *so* damn easy for them to change it if they actually didn't want us to see it. You can't really argue this point, it's simple factual programming - all you have to do is run data through encryption and decryption. It's not hard. At all. Trust me on this. It can still be hacked at the client end, but nowhere near as easily. And encrypting it would send a very obvious "we do not want you looking at this" message.

2. They have *not* done the above. I said before, as an exercise to the reader, to think about why this may be. Below, enjoy a possible and far from unreasonable explanation.

3. In case you've been living under a rock, SE, GMs, and whatall have demonstrated a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude towards Windower and this sort of stuff. In effect, "if you tell us about it, then yes we will enforce our rules - but if you don't tell us about it, we're willing to look the other way because it's really not a concern to us, the way the stuff the STF is hunting *is*."

4. It's simply easier, on their end, to do it that way than to revise their rules to say "yes, it's all fair and legal and we encourage you to use 3rd party programs in only harmless ways". Because then there's a *lot* more legal loopholes in what constitutes "harmless", which ultimately creates more problems for them (both on a legal end and a programming end) than it's worth. Not to mention there's outcry from the non-PC users that they're now at a company-condoned disadvantage.

(And to fix that disadvantage, their programming team would have to do more work to make PS2 and X360 equivalents of PC mods. And considering how damn slow their programming team is in the first place, and considering how they've demonstrably *hated* going back and fixing/changing anything in something that's not the most recent expansion, can you really see them inviting more work for themselves in changing the basic game UI?)

5. Whereas if they simply don't go hunting down the problems, but nevertheless upholding the "official rules" if the rule-breaker shoves them in their face, then they're legally squeaky clean, but effectively - while not officially - allowing it.

Or, the alternative viewpoint:

"My morals are absolute, the official rules are black and white, and I'm a nice little sheep who never actually thinks about the reasons behind anything." No offense, but I roll my eyes at anyone who doesn't have a more solid argument than "it's just plain wrong" or "the rules say not to". And while catch phrases like "slippery slope" are all well and good for rhetorical purposes, I prefer more solid arguments.

Honestly, if you've ever been presented with a real ethical dilemma, you wouldn't be sweating the notion of "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law" in this situation. Which is really what it is. There are unofficial, non legally binding ways for SE to demonstrate their stance on their rules too, and it would do you well to remember that. :P
 
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1. It would be *so* damn easy for them to change it if they actually didn't want us to see it. You can't really argue this point, it's simple factual programming - all you have to do is run data through encryption and decryption. It's not hard. At all. Trust me on this. It can still be hacked at the client end, but nowhere near as easily. And encrypting it would send a very obvious "we do not want you looking at this" message.

2. They have *not* done the above. I said before, as an exercise to the reader, to think about why this may be. Below, enjoy a possible and far from unreasonable explanation.
I was under the impression that all FFXI packets were encrypted, and windower and its plugins got their information by searching the computer's active memory space for the necessary information. I'm not completely up to speed on things, but if this is the case, then it's the same difference. Honestly, any encrypted information received by the client is easily bypassed, as it needs to be decrypted anyway for the client to view it.
This is a trivial thing to bypass for someone working on a project like the FFXI windower, and is probably already the case currently.

The fact that this information is shown nowhere (I'm looking very specifically at distance and TP, not any recast plugins) within the bounds of the program should already be an obvious "we do not want you looking at this".


3. In case you've been living under a rock, SE, GMs, and whatall have demonstrated a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude towards Windower and this sort of stuff. In effect, "if you tell us about it, then yes we will enforce our rules - but if you don't tell us about it, we're willing to look the other way because it's really not a concern to us, the way the stuff the STF is hunting *is*."

4. It's simply easier, on their end, to do it that way than to revise their rules to say "yes, it's all fair and legal and we encourage you to use 3rd party programs in only harmless ways". Because then there's a *lot* more legal loopholes in what constitutes "harmless", which ultimately creates more problems for them (both on a legal end and a programming end) than it's worth. Not to mention there's outcry from the non-PC users that they're now at a company-condoned disadvantage.

(And to fix that disadvantage, their programming team would have to do more work to make PS2 and X360 equivalents of PC mods. And considering how damn slow their programming team is in the first place, and considering how they've demonstrably *hated* going back and fixing/changing anything in something that's not the most recent expansion, can you really see them inviting more work for themselves in changing the basic game UI?)
Yes, I do agree with this, and I'm glad this is where the priority lies. It's not something they're actively looking for at the moment, and that's fine.

When you mention UI changes, I'd assume you're likely referring to various forms of recast timer, which again, is something I've never taken any sort of stance against at any point.

"My morals are absolute, the official rules are black and white, and I'm a nice little sheep who never actually thinks about the reasons behind anything." No offense, but I roll my eyes at anyone who doesn't have a more solid argument than "it's just plain wrong" or "the rules say not to". And while catch phrases like "slippery slope" are all well and good for rhetorical purposes, I prefer more solid arguments.
Thanks for the imitation, but I've made my stance on things of this nature pretty clear a few times, and that's not quite it. Anything providing a discernable ingame advantage, either by "enhancing" the player's abilities outside of what is normal, or providing information the player was not intended to see, is pretty simply cheating. Even amongst that, there's still some grey area, and I don't recall at any point saying anything along the lines of "just because". I apologize for not going this in depth this time, but I'd figured I'd shared enough by now.


And yes, it's been a bit of a slippery slope, albeit a slow one. It slowly became accepted, leading to more powerful things (distance) becoming readily accepted more easily, until now we're at the point where people are adding features to the game, but nobody is thinking anything of it. This is the very definition of "slippery slope". It's depressing, and to be honest, I could see it coming from day one.
 
Packets sent over the internet are encrypted, yes. But the way information is stored in RAM - this, not the packets, are what the plugins read - may or may not be encrypted. You have the option of doing so, depending on how you implement it. You don't have to store information as a plain old readable integer or floating point number that any halfway competent RAM tracing program could find and report to you.

For a very simple (and easily broken) example, say that the aforementioned things in memory like distance, instead of just being stored as the floating point numbers they are, are instead stored in all client-side memory as, say, their square root. (Like I said, it's easily broken. It's just an example. Real encryption is more complicated.) The client then passes the square-root number over to the server, and the server turns it into the actual number, while the client really never has any clue whatsoever what the real number actually is.

Similarly, you could have the number on the client end always be the result of a *real* encryption, and leave the decryption to the server. Slightly more time overhead, I admit, but it's hardly as if the programmers have been optimizing RAM or CPU efficiency particularly well to begin with. :P

We'll have to agree to disagree on the other stuff. I make the additional distinction between your two categories "intended to see" (which we get) and "intended to hide" (which we shouldn't get), and a third category: "not intended to hide". And I honestly believe they don't mind if we get that last one. If they did, they wouldn't send it to the client, after all the client doesn't have any use whatsoever for alliance/party TP or alliance MP, but it gets it anyway. But they didn't bother going to the trouble of letting us see it in the official UI (very *very* possibly due to PS2 limitations rather than any sort of more important gameplay design).

Like I said: all they'd have to do, if they intended to hide that information, was encrypt it client-side. Or if the client doesn't use it (as in the above examples), simply not send it at all. Both of them easy changes on their part. I kinda analogize it with being gay: there are those who flaunt it, there are those who cower in the closet, and there are those who don't mind people finding out but aren't gonna announce it. And there's no harm done for finding out about it in the first and third cases, while the second case obviously wants to keep their secret.
 
Does anyone know a good link that has a safe Windower (no virus and it works)? Thank you...
 
http://windower.faservers.net/wiki/

That's the official Windower site, so I think it's safe to say that downloading from there is as trustworthy and reliable as you're gonna get.
 
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