Final petition for POL policy changes: live

[Tim Wakefield]

Kisada started the effort duing a normal work week. I honestly didn't think he would post it on a Wednesday night, without time for many people to honestly give it a good look.

His intentions are good, but methods are off. The first chance I got to read it was last night, when it was first posted. I'm not gonna sign something that's done wrong, just because the intentions are good.

I mentioned Skaw's post earlier in the thread, in my example of how ideas like his are missed because of everything being done out of emotion rather than using common sense.

You can't press 'reset' on something like this and start over. I assumed kisada had the knowledge to wait to do something until an ample discussion could have been had for the method the petition was to be handled. He did ask for comments on the petition itself, never from what I saw (again, I stopped reading after seeing the sheep running to pasture with I'll sign) about the actual method to prove authenticity.

If someone wants my name on there, as I've mentioned before, anyone can go sign me up. When that could happen anyway, why should I do it for myself for something I disagree with. People were so upset that the first mention of retaliation was taken as a godsend.

This may work, it may not, but even so, if I'm involved I'd have rather it be done in a much better effort than was used here.

Edit: Rechecked the original posts dates...it was last week wednesday that the first post was done. My apologies, dates were off.

Second edit:


Just checked the list starting from the back, and there's spam on that page too, #614. Also people that have quit FFXI on the list...my guess is it wasn't because of the security when they did.

Jamal turns something simple with good intentions into a big deal. Anyone surprised?

Well written Kisada. Very nicely done.

 

[Pesmerga]

Second edit:


Just checked the list starting from the back, and there's spam on that page too, #614. Also people that have quit FFXI on the list...my guess is it wasn't because of the security when they did.

so your saying because someone doesn't play a game anymore they dont have a right too sign it? say for example someone makes one of these in regards too...say families not getting the money they were promised when their loved one dies in combat(military). are you saying that vets don't have the right to sign because it wasn't as much a problem back in the day?

point is. just because it didn't effect someone that used to play does that mean they dont have the right too voice their opinions about it being wrong? same idea just different situation.

 

[Trippyhippy]

You can't press 'reset' on something like this and start over.

Why? If it doesn't wark the first time, what is to keep you from trying again using different methods? If this doesn't work, it's because it's being ignored. If it is ignored, it's like it never happened, and anyone with the motivation is free to try again.

I assumed kisada had the knowledge to wait to do something until an ample discussion could have been had for the method the petition was to be handled. He did ask for comments on the petition itself, never from what I saw (again, I stopped reading after seeing the sheep running to pasture with I'll sign) about the actual method to prove authenticity.

Would you have a suggestion as to how to do it better? If so, what is going to stop you from trying?

If someone wants my name on there, as I've mentioned before, anyone can go sign me up. When that could happen anyway, why should I do it for myself for something I disagree with. People were so upset that the first mention of retaliation was taken as a godsend.

If you are starving an old sandwich looks like a god send. Some one has to try something. Kisada lost his account (I think?) and he has a lot of free time to do something.

This may work, it may not, but even so, if I'm involved I'd have rather it be done in a much better effort than was used here.

Then make the effort. Right now your effort is focused in opposition to the only effort being made to help people get their shit back.

Edit: Rechecked the original posts dates...it was last week wednesday that the first post was done. My apologies, dates were off.

Doesn't matter, close enough, I know what you meant.

Just checked the list starting from the back, and there's spam on that page too, #614. Also people that have quit FFXI on the list...my guess is it wasn't because of the security when they did.

Still, I am suprised less than 50% of it's spam. Actually more like 2% of it's spam.

Anyway. I guess what I am trying to say is, well, just be positive. Be proactive. If you want to criticize, be constuctive about it.

 

[jamal]

Kisada didn't lose his fucking account. X and Harb did. Which makes me wonder where his other friend Taills is. Where's the petition to get him back?

I did suggest an idea in a different thread...one of the 15 open about dealing with the hacking of accounts. I've also posted saying that the effort kisada is putting out here could be used to educate people on proper internet safety...which takes 2 minutes.
To be honest, I hate Kisada more than anyone else in the game. Would it have been anyone else to start this, I probably wouldn't have been so critical.

And yes, it does matter if you've quit or not. Because in my suggestion, I said that SE would notice a huge cancellation of accounts on the same date accompanied with a petition. If you're not a paying customer why would a business give a damn what you think, you've already given up their product. How many people would readily give up SE's products if they don't confer? Without plausible recourse to lack of action taken, SE can simply send this to the shredder.

This is as positive as you'll get from me from anything started by Kisada. You replied while quoting me in other threads, so don't say why didn't I suggest other solutions.

 

[Kreoss]

I honestly don't think this will do anything, but hope springs eternal, and I signed anyway. It'd be nice if it -did- work, wouldn't it?

 

[K. Ishitar]

well jam most of the people that do quit do come back; SE from its poor ratings never really cared about their customers on whole

 

[Archmage]

Or you could have asked rather than saying this is how it was, throwing 3 separate posts out for one single post to lose interest of people.

Or of course, you could actually read the forum rather than just using it when its convenient for you. There's 5-6 posts in the previous week that talk about it.

But yea, you're right...I should have taken time out of my work week to post suggestions in a thread that was wrongly stickied after like 10 posts cluttered with:
i'd sign
I'd sign
I'd sign
I'd sign

Once again, think before you act. This is a general discussion FFXI forum. Since you never asked for help, just showed the petition and said you were making changes, I have every right to criticize after the 2-day period you gave before it went 'live'.

Good show kisada, good show

This petition was extremely well written, and I personally find your comments to be of a snide, shallow, and assine nature. Seriously, develop some people skills and a filter for the mindless dribble that flows out from you and fills posts with your snide, whining dribble so we don't have to lose brain cells processing it. Get off your ass and do something productive or STFU.

Kisada, you have my thanks for your efforts on this matter.

 

[Zeoaesir]

Nicely put

@ 708

Quick suggestion

Might be an idea if Kisada tries to get himself on the podcast Petfood Alpha. It is weekly and they are always requesting guests on the show. This could open up the petition even more.
http://www.petfoodalpha.com/

 

[Trippyhippy]

To be honest, I hate Kisada more than anyone else in the game. Would it have been anyone else to start this, I probably wouldn't have been so critical.

And that's that. Help out or butt out.

 

[Rappa]

The main problem with the site being used is that there's really no check for signers. Anyone who is bored can turn themself into 100 people pretty easily. Just go to ffxiah, put random names down, random real names occasionally, mix up the servers, and boom. You might say "Well I'm sure they IP log everyone who signs". Maybe they do. That would matter if there weren't hundreds of anonymizers to surf the net with giving you a new IP every time. "Well, you have to have an email address". Considering they don't even seem to validate you in the first place, you might even be able to use "[email protected]" since they can be private. Even if they do attempt to validate, I have hundreds of trash email sites in my account signup blocks on my site. I'm going to bet that petitiononline has 0. Maybe 20 or so of the most popular. Probably 0 though.

That's why most companies don't take these petitions seriously. I hope it helps, but only time will tell. In the meantime I'd encourage people to continue pestering S-E in every way imaginable and not just say "Whelp, signed the petition so I'm good to go".

 

[jamal]

This petition was extremely well written, and I personally find your comments to be of a snide, shallow, and assine nature. Seriously, develop some people skills and a filter for the mindless dribble that flows out from you and fills posts with your snide, whining dribble so we don't have to lose brain cells processing it. Get off your ass and do something productive or STFU.

Kisada, you have my thanks for your efforts on this matter.

I've never said the petition wasn't well written. I said there's no recourse of action should SE not do anything.

Check signature #701...out of 768 signatures, one gets it. Well two, Rappa's post explains it.

 

[kisada]

tee hee

ok, like i said in a bunch of other forums. i got no interest in arguing, some people will believe what they want to, that's up to them and i don't think there is any possible way to convince them otherwise. i'd still opine that it's unfortunate there are people who are more interested in being negative than just signing, but again, i don't think there's anything at all i could say to change their minds.

the whole point of this was to build on something that we could all agree on, even in spite of our differences. i was actually going to post something along those lines, but i guess i didn't even have to for some people.

i'm sure a lot of pers people dislike me, and for good reason. i have a habit of yapping away whenever i get the chance. even so, quite a few of their members signed anyway and for that i'm appreciative and grateful. i was really hoping that we could avoid negativity and differences with this, and for a lot of people, we did. personally, i don't hate anyone in this game, as i think that's going a bit too far, but if i did i'd still want that person to meet me on common ground here.

i do appreciate the people arguing on my behalf for what i'm trying to do. i think my intent is pure and hopefully people see that. but i also hope people don't take the arguing overboard, and instead focus on promoting the petition. i'm generally pretty ambivalent about negative responses directed against me on forums and such, and i'd bet a buck or two i could defend myself adequately if i needed to.

but here, i don't. there's no point. i'd be doing a lot of people disservice if i was trying to bog down this thread trying to defend myself from petty arguments. this whole thing was never about me: it will always be about the people who lost their accounts and every single person who is treated unfairly by POL. i just want people to sign. so please encourage others to do so, and keep the petition moving. thanks

 

[kisada]

oh yeah, and i'm trying to figure out a way to eliminate joke signatures. also, i very much understand the underlying problems about online petitions and the nature of multiple signatures. there shouldn't really be any discussion there: there are definitely weaknesses to it, and i never pretended otherwise. but i'd hope that people can just look past that for the time being, and instead place a tiny bit of faith into the whole idea.

 

[Tristam Green]

I've never said the petition wasn't well written. I said there's no recourse of action should SE not do anything.

I think 775+ signatures on this petition implies there will be recourse of action should Square-Enix do minimal action regarding this issue. That's almost 1/3 our server population at any given time.

Check signature #701...out of 768 signatures, one gets it. Well two, Rappa's post explains it.

That's not recourse, though. He's being a little more proactive in his action rather than being reactionary.

 

[jamal]

I think 775+ signatures on this petition implies there will be recourse of action should Square-Enix do minimal action regarding this issue. That's almost 1/3 our server population at any given time.

Its a cross-server petition. 775 Signatures aren't from quetz, rather the entire player base. Which I pointed out earlier is debatable in its own right, but I can accept why its opened up. There's also no proof (I know they are genuine, how does SE) that these 'signatures' in all actuality represent the account holders.

That's not recourse, though. He's being a little more proactive in his action rather than being reactionary.

And his one sentence will mean more to a business entity then the entire rest of the petition. Seeing that in the signature list could prove to be the wake-up call SE needs.

ok, like i said in a bunch of other forums. i got no interest in arguing, some people will believe what they want to, that's up to them and i don't think there is any possible way to convince them otherwise. i'd still opine that it's unfortunate there are people who are more interested in being negative than just signing, but again, i don't think there's anything at all i could say to change their minds.

I've got no interest in arguing. As you've done time and time before, you're being hypocritical. You're saying that people arguing aren't going to have their minds changed, yet you won't take into consideration the thoughts presented to you. Just because I come off with a negative tone on an internet-forum doesn't mean the ideals I'm presenting shouldn't be taken into consideration.

I attacked you for not thinking things through and acting purely on emotion rather then using common sense. I, as well as others, have presented better solutions that could have been done had you not acted so hastily.

 

[Tristam Green]

Its a cross-server peition. 775 Signatures aren't from quetz, rather the entire player base. Which I pointed out earlier is debatable in its own right, but I can accept why its opened up. There's also no proof (I know they are genuine, how does SE) that these 'signatures' in all actuality represent the account holders.

Numbers cross-server or from a single server don't negate the amount of impact. Sure, it'd be a little more noticeable initially when they see a server's population has dipped to 2/3 its normal operating amounts, but the fact is that with that petition even existing, the *potential* for the loss of 1000 users, not to mention all of their content IDs, is significant for a company that boasts over 1,000,000 content IDs.

Now, without getting into another argument, there is no way to know how many of those who signed said petition would actually do what's been mentioned should nothing happen to fix the game's current woes.

And his one sentence will mean more to a business entity then the entire rest of the petition. Seeing that in the signature list could prove to be the wake-up call SE needs.

Again, it's not that I don't see your point, I'm just saying that the rest of the signatures have no less of an impact because they indicate awareness of a large-scale problem, even if only at the bare minimum.

 

[jamal]

Again, it's not that I don't see your point, I'm just saying that the rest of the signatures have no less of an impact because they indicate awareness of a large-scale problem, even if only at the bare minimum.

Its blatantly obvious to me though.

Throw out Union regulations for the basis of discussion, etc etc.

Suppose you work in a factory, and everyone signs a petition to have the toilets in the back of the factory replaced because 2 workers have fallen ill because of the lack of cleanliness. Management looks and see's 10% of the workers signatures on the form, and because of no recourse for action, they don't do anything, thinking they can lose a few workers but the severity isn't enough to cause change...after all this is their job and the people won't leave.

On the other hand, if properly handled, the factory staff will go on strike until the demands are met. Production halts, meaning the company loses money. Negotiations are set, and the demands are met. It takes a bigger sacrifice on the part of the afflicted group (ie workers or gamers), but shows a much more resounding impact on the business entity (factory management/SE).

 

[Tristam Green]

What is blatantly obvious? I said that the signatures indicate awareness. Believe me, if kisada has this as his only means of communication with SE, I'd fully agree with you. However, I have a big feeling that while the petition is a good forum to get cross-server interaction about this problem, it's a start, and a good one at that.

Using your example of factory work sounds like the only statement these folks could make is if they picketed SE's offices. Granted that this whole issue is still relatively new territory for any law enforcement agency, I'd wager the group would be dispersed before they even got anywhere.

Who knows...not me, that's for certain. Everything since the petition went "go" has been nothing short of speculation, on all parties' account.

 

[jamal]

What is blatantly obvious? I said that the signatures indicate awareness. Believe me, if kisada has this as his only means of communication with SE, I'd fully agree with you. However, I have a big feeling that while the petition is a good forum to get cross-server interaction about this problem, it's a start, and a good one at that.

Using your example of factory work sounds like the only statement these folks could make is if they picketed SE's offices. Granted that this whole issue is still relatively new territory for any law enforcement agency, I'd wager the group would be dispersed before they even got anywhere.

Who knows...not me, that's for certain. Everything since the petition went "go" has been nothing short of speculation, on all parties' account.

My feeling, and it could be alone, is that this needs to be a one swoop effort in regards to a petition. If I handed my boss separate pieces of status reports over a 2-week period, it wouldn't be nearly as professional and impactual as one document laid out with proofs detailing where need be. I also feel, and it could be wrong, that if another attempt to gain signatures (ie suggested platforms such as PoL) would not receive as much support as the initial feed. That's my feeling, I assumed others would agree with that so further explanation wasn't needed, my apologies.

This is why I've stated a few times that this needs to be done correctly the first attempt, and that there is no reset button to start over. But again, this part I maybe way off base, I can't defend that segment of my argument any further.

 

[Nyett]

I, as well as others, have presented better solutions that could have been done had you not acted so hastily.

The existance of this petition doesn't limit you to proceed with your ideas. If this was handled so poorly and your ideas are so much better then stop complaining, get your thumb out of your ass and do it. Your talk is very cheap.