Firefighters = Mercenaries only - Pay to spray?

[Zyndara]

If I read the story correctly, the fire started in two barrels, but then spread to the home. That's all fine and dandy if they want to fight the fire first when it was just in the barrels, but once it hit the house, they needed to get everything living out first before proceeding to fight it.

I agree with you. Like I said, I wasn't there... I don't know any more details then you do as far as why that didn't happen. But do you know any person who has 3 pets who would just let them die in a fire? I'm just saying there has to be a reason that happened, and it's unlikely to me that they thought to themselves "ah, let em roast."

 

[Kotsu]

Stuff like this is exactly why I have absolutely no faith in humanity. Someone didn't come up with a measly $75 so they let his entire home burn to the ground as they watched.

People are fucking despicable.

You can't just pick and choose when you want protection dude. You can't get in a car accident without insurance, then buy insurance and expect them to cover you. You can't not pay the $75 for the fire department and then arbitrarily decide to pay it after there's a fire. Insurance and the fire department are charging way less then what it costs to halt the damages sustained and repair the damages sustained back to the original state of the property lost.

People aren't despicable because of a sound business structure of paying for a promise and delivering upon incident with a diversified risk scenario that spreads the risk relation and cost out over a community and charges accordingly. Once again, do not expect something for nothing.

 

[alanon]

Stuff like this is exactly why I have absolutely no faith in humanity. Someone didn't come up with a measly $75 so they let his entire home burn to the ground as they watched.

No, they didn't stand around and watch, they just didn't come out. When they did come out for the call at the neighbor's house, this guy's house was already burnt to the ground and they just weren't spraying water on what was already a lost structure.

You are right though, this is why my faith in humanity is shakin. You know what's missing? Any sense of personal responsibility. It's not the mayor's fault or the FFs. It was a resident who set the fire in the first place. It was the owner that chose not to pay for the service (and it cracks me up that you all just ASSUME this guy is out of work and couldn't pay for it which isn't the case).

So basically you guys are saying that these FFs should come out and risk their lives, and the city should spend an exorbinant amount of resources of it's own taxpayers and the people in this community that chose to have the service, to try to save some piece of this property whose OWN OWNER didn't seem to think was worth $75 to protect...........

 

[Lucki]

Where did you find out about where he works?

* If he actually does work, and can afford the $75, I have even less sympathy for him

 

[Zyndara]

Yep that's right kids. Don't expect anyone to extend you a kindness or be decent in any way, especially when you really need it. Nevermind that you may pay your taxes, work hard, and are quite possibly a totally good person. Forget that we all make mistakes and don't live in a world where a person can always make ends meet. Just take your home burning down and the loss of your photos, family heirlooms, and irreplaceables for what it is: A reminder of how much of an inept loser of a moron you are. Accept it as a token of sincere fuck you from all the chest thumpers out there living in their little bubbles and shitting on anyone they deem less worthy.

I hope someone shows you more generosity of decency when you really need it. I really do. And someday you really will need it despite your thought that you'll always have everything covered.

 

[Zyndara]

I have to agree with alanon. There are a lot of assumptions being made. Whether or not the guy is out of work, lazy, whatever, the point stands that he failed to pay for a service, and the service was not rendered as a consequence. Shitty as it was, legally, I think the Firefighters' case is solid.

/drugstorelegalese

Yes, they do have a solid legal case, I don't think that's the issue. I guess to me it's the moral issue. It's like a doctor sitting at a table in a restaurant casually chewing his steak while watching someone choke to death at the next table. All joking aside... $75 is worth letting someone's house burn down? Fuck, if I was there, I'd have handed them a check of my own money, and that guy's a total stranger to me. It's the principle of having some compassion and decency. And apparently that's far too much to ask.

 

[Kotsu]

Yes, they do have a solid legal case, I don't think that's the issue. I guess to me it's the moral issue. It's like a doctor sitting at a table in a restaurant casually chewing his steak while watching someone choke to death at the next table. All joking aside... $75 is worth letting someone's house burn down? Fuck, if I was there, I'd have handed them a check of my own money, and that guy's a total stranger to me. It's the principle of having some compassion and decency. And apparently that's far too much to ask.

Never mind the fact that if the doctor performed the Heimlich or CPR on that person and that person suffered damage from said procedure, then that person could sue the doctor for everything he has. Thus, making medical malpractice insurance that much more unaffordable and he loses his practice or can't afford to stay employed. That's exactly what he worked so hard in school and life for.

Giving him $75 after the fire is pointless, as a business you can't enter yourself into a situation knowing you'll have a $2500 loss due to this. Seeing as how he started the fire himself in the first place, the insurance company can deny the claim for arson to begin with. They won't since he's already taken one party to court, but they could have. As of right now, he's gonna get a check from the insurance company and hopefully when he finds a new place, he has $75 to pay for fire protective services.

 

[Raesvelg]

Morally reprehensible? Yep. Legal? Yep.

Ordinarily I believe that government should stay out of things it doesn't need to get involved in. Firefighting/fire prevention, however, falls into "Raes' List of Public Goods", along with law enforcement, infrastructure expansion and maintenance, and so on.

So yeah. The fire department, such as it is, is in the right in this situation. They are set up specifically as mercenaries in that region, and the homeowner knowingly ran the risk of forgoing that particular fee, probably thinking that he'd never have a fire, so why bother paying for a service he'd never use.

However.

It should not have been that way.

Oh, and as for this:

Never mind the fact that if the doctor performed the Heimlich or CPR on that person and that person suffered damage from said procedure, then that person could sue the doctor for everything he has. Thus, making medical malpractice insurance that much more unaffordable and he loses his practice or can't afford to stay employed. That's exactly what he worked so hard in school and life for.

And this is why we desperately need tort law reform, and why pretty much any form of healthcare "reform" is fucking meaningless until we do.

 

[alanon]

Ordinarily I believe that government should stay out of things it doesn't need to get involved in. Firefighting/fire prevention, however, falls into "Raes' List of Public Goods", along with law enforcement, infrastructure expansion and maintenance, and so on.

Ah Raes, I agree with you but here's the rub: It was not this guy's local government that people are cursing, it's the local government of a neighboring community.

 

[Raesvelg]

Ah Raes, I agree with you but here's the rub: It was not this guy's local government that people are cursing, it's the local government of a neighboring community.

Irrelevant. There should be fire prevention services, publicly funded, available at every location in the United States. Anything less is a failure of government.

 

[CidBahamut]

You folks who keep going on about it being a sound business decision make me sick. Someone called for help in an emergency situation and got told to fuck off and watch his life burn to the ground.

There is no excuse for that.

None.

 

[Kotsu]

You folks who keep going on about it being a sound business decision make me sick. Someone called for help in an emergency situation and got told to fuck off and watch his life burn to the ground.

There is no excuse for that.

None.

Someone with no preventative measures to stop that fire shouldn't have started one intentionally in their yard close to their home. We may make you sick, but knowing someone this stupid exists in this world kinda makes me a little sick too. "Play with fire and you could get burned"

I mean, it's not as though we recently discovered fire could destroy your home. We've kinda dealt with this fact for thousands and thousands of years. This jackass simply didn't follow the trend of evolution the rest of us did.

Furthermore, bleeding heart liberals make me sick too. Savings this guys home and such would cost $2000 (factoring in cost of living difference to Lucki's numbers posted earlier). This guy wouldn't pay $75 for their service, he's not reimbursing them the $2000. Let's not kid ourselves like he would even be capable of it or consider it. Why don't you take unpaid leave from work and drive down there to help him? Because you would lose money and time. Guess what, the firefighters would deal with the same issue.

 

[Uzor]

Also, while not an official statistic, a user on another forum calculated that it costs $2,582


http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10461617#post10461617

If it actually does cost South Folton that much to put out 1 single-family home, $75 is a steal.

Assuming the math is right, at $2582 every time they rush out, that means they break even at 34,42 families paying the annual cost.

In the US, there's a total of 114,825,428 households in the US in 2010. Every year, 1,9 million fires start in a household. That means that the risk of your house catching fire (purely statistical) is about 0,017%. That means that in every 100 households in that area, roughly 1 catch fire. Assuming 85% of those households pay, the fire station make $6375 dollar. Removing the cost of $2582, that still means they made a $3793 profit. Even if two houses catch fire, they still go with a profit.

Bottom line is, there's no reason for them to sit idly by and watch the guy's house burn down, as they still make a profit. If you're gonna go retard-style and say "BUT IT COSTS THEM 2000 TO PUT THE FIRE OUT, 75 DOLLAR IS A STEAL!" you can't ignore that they still go with a profit.

And before you say "But why should others pay his fire cost?!" that's the way it works in society. Not everyone needs the police, and yet your tax goes towards paying for them.

 

[alanon]

Irrelevant. There should be fire prevention services, publicly funded, available at every location in the United States. Anything less is a failure of government.

Even if the public chooses not to fund it?

 

[Uzor]

Even if the public chooses not to fund it?

So they should suffer because the government is too stupid (or cheap) to choose not to build a fire station in their vicinity?

"Well, they're all foreginers. We'll let them fight it out. Its cheaper for us."

 

[Zyndara]

Never mind the fact that if the doctor performed the Heimlich or CPR on that person and that person suffered damage from said procedure, then that person could sue the doctor for everything he has. Thus, making medical malpractice insurance that much more unaffordable and he loses his practice or can't afford to stay employed. That's exactly what he worked so hard in school and life for.

What he did was take an oath to, and I quote from the modern version of the hippocratic oath: "apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism" and "remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm." I agree with Raes, the system is flawed. You took an oath and became a doctor to save lives and heal the sick. That means you don't stand by and watch someone die if you can prevent it. If you wouldn't reach out to help someone who is suffering or having an emergency, then you shouldn't be a doctor.

Likewise, if you aren't willing to save someone's home from burning down when you're a firefighter simply because it's the right thing to do, then you shouldn't be a firefighter. Fuck politics. What's right is right.

 

[Kotsu]

So they should suffer because the government is too stupid (or cheap) to choose not to build a fire station in their vicinity?

"Well, they're all foreigners. We'll let them fight it out. Its cheaper for us."

fuck yes. Other option is to raise taxes to increase the ability to fund such an organization. Five bucks says a 1% tax increase will cost you more than the $75.

Maryland raised their taxes by 1% in 2008. It's a pretty big difference when all is said and done. You think you can't afford $75? lol what the fuck are you going to do when you expenses increase by 1% for the whole year? Or your taxes on your income is up too? C'mon man, get real. $75 is dirt cheap for the services rendered.

 

[alanon]

So they should suffer because the government is too stupid (or cheap) to choose not to build a fire station in their vicinity?

"Well, they're all foreginers. We'll let them fight it out. Its cheaper for us."

Dude, seriously? Where is it that you think government get funds for things? If taxes were suddenly made voluntary, and no one paid, do you think that the government would just say, "well we don't want to look 'cheap' or 'stupid', so we'll just use this non existance money to pay for stuff!"

 

[Kotsu]

What he did was take an oath to, and I quote from the modern version of the hippocratic oath: "apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism" and "remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm." I agree with Raes, the system is flawed. You took an oath and became a doctor to save lives and heal the sick. That means you don't stand by and watch someone die if you can prevent it. If you wouldn't reach out to help someone who is suffering or having an emergency, then you shouldn't be a doctor.

Likewise, if you aren't willing to save someone's home from burning down when you're a firefighter simply because it's the right thing to do, then you shouldn't be a firefighter. Fuck politics. What's right is right.

If everyone didn't get sued over everything, then I would agree with that. But how many lives are you saving when you can't operate your business anymore? None. Sacrifice one to continue helping many.

 

[Uzor]

Dude, seriously? Where is it that you think government get funds for things? If taxes were suddenly made voluntary, and no one paid, do you think that the government would just say, "well we don't want to look 'cheap' or 'stupid', so we'll just use this non existance money to pay for stuff!"

That's not what I said, I said the government get taxes to pay for things like police and firefighters. When everyone else get it for free, why should these guys have to pay EXTRA for a service that should be basic and exist everywhere? These guys pay tax too, no?