Feedback Flameboard Guidelines

[Audino]

I agree with this. It's in the Final Fantasy Forum, not the Reality Sinks in.

This.

And none of this has anything to do with catering to anyone.

Unless you're talking to some weak-willed simpleton who'd immediately start reaching for a gun or bottle of Drain-O, all it causes is hurt feelings.

If anything, part of the point I was trying to put out there was you don't KNOW who you're talking to most times on the internet. Do people here really think you can pick up others personalities so well just by reading their posts? Are there really people here trying to say that everyone on QCDN acts like they do in Real Life?

 

[Halifirien]

If anything, part of the point I was trying to put out there was you don't KNOW who you're talking to most times on the internet.

That's true that you can't, but I think most of those people have probably either already fallen off the truck or, if they're actually killing themselves over a post on a message board, it was going to happen anyway and you're just the latest catalyst.

Part of it is my inability to understand the mindset that says "You shouldn't wish death on another person." Why not? I've done it plenty of times. I don't feel guilty about wishing people dead because I know things don't happen just because you wish for them. You may as well argue that we shouldn't wish people into the cornfield for all the practical effect it would have on people's actual lives. Telling someone to commit suicide is certainly rude, but I don't think it's the worst thing you can say.

Part of it is that I expect a certain baseline of intelligence from people who are capable of taking part in an MMORPG and a forum community. I know, I know... that's wildly optimistic and I should know better. Forrest Gump and Terri Schiavo don't gravitate toward this kind of entertainment.

I think if you want to protect the softboiled eggs walking around QCDN, just do away with the Flame Board entirely.

 

[Audino]

I think if you want to protect the softboiled eggs walking around QCDN, just do away with the Flame Board entirely.

This isn't about protecting the "softboiled eggs" of QCDN. Not just everyone can brush things off their shoulder like you can, and thats my reasoning for this movement. Its not about pleasing the "carebears." Its simply about respect and regard for another human beings life and condition. Like I said, call them whatever you want in the book. Just like you would love to hope anyone playing an MMORPG has a certain level of intelligence, I too would like to hope anyone on this forum could not sink to a level to say "kill yourself" over something as simple like what LS they applied to or what gear they wear.

if they're actually killing themselves over a post on a message board, it was going to happen anyway and you're just the latest catalyst.

And this is why I through the word "regard" in my post. You sound quite alright being the catalyst. Sure, the hell do you care, right? They were weak anyway.

Why not? I've done it plenty of times. I don't feel guilty about wishing people dead because I know things don't happen just because you wish for them.

No, of course you don't feel guilty and it doesn't necessarily mean the other person is going to go and do what you said. Do you think about the other side though? Do you think about how it can affect people that aren't like you with such a teflon coating for insults and comments like that? And honestly, do you think that people visiting the site and enjoy petty arguments here and there and like to browse around and check out all our areas should be subject to that over a video game message board?

The world's a cruel place. QCDN isn't the world though and the Flameboard is even further from it.

 

[Halifirien]

Its simply about respect and regard for another human beings life and condition. Like I said, call them whatever you want in the book. ... I too would like to hope anyone on this forum could not sink to a level to say "kill yourself" over something as simple like what LS they applied to or what gear they wear.

How does "call them whatever you want in the book" translate to somehow being on higher moral ground than the person who says "Kill yourself," though? It's a completely arbitrary line you're drawing in the sand, where heaping childish insults on a person is somehow less objectionable. Both are showing a distinct lack of respect for another person's dignity. Why does mortality suddenly tip the balance? It's Hitler's shark all over again.

Do you think about the other side though? Do you think about how it can affect people that aren't like you with such a teflon coating for insults and comments like that?

Of course I think how words can affect people. That's why I don't go around needlessly insulting people. I treat people the way I'd like to be treated. I've had my fair share of insults hurled my way over the years -- try being the president of the gay-straight alliance at a West Virginia college without hearing the world "faggot," for example -- but again I don't think "Kill yourself" or "die in a fire" are the worst things you can say to a person.

 

[Audino]

How does "call them whatever you want in the book" translate to somehow being on higher moral ground than the person who says "Kill yourself," though? It's a completely arbitrary line you're drawing in the sand, where heaping childish insults on a person is somehow less objectionable. Both are showing a distinct lack of respect for another person's dignity. Why does mortality suddenly tip the balance? It's Hitler's shark all over again.

Calling people gimp, stupid, idiot, loser, etc. is pretty different from "kill yourself." I know I'm not the only one that seems to think so here.

Of course I think how words can affect people. That's why I don't go around needlessly insulting people. I treat people the way I'd like to be treated. I've had my fair share of insults hurled my way over the years -- try being the president of the gay-straight alliance at a West Virginia college without hearing the world "faggot," for example -- but again I don't think "Kill yourself" or "die in a fire" are the worst things you can say to a person.

Of course you wouldn't. Those aren't the things it seems like you'd take personal offense to judging by your example given.

I can agree to disagree, however. Like I said all feedback is welcome, good or bad. I just want to hear from everyone.

 

[Auron X]

Both Audino and Halifirien have made good points on opposite sides of this argument. I agree that there are worse things that you can say to someone then go kill yourself but there should be no reason to even say that to someone in a menacingly way. Still I think that there is a time where it is acceptable to say things like "die in a fire".

That would be in a harmless joking manner like when someone responds to a statement of "I just went 1/1 on PCA, Ebow, and Retaliators all in 1 day!" You aren't really saying anything negative to them you are in reality just jealous of that and playfully congratulating them.

People just need to start treating other people on this board with some dignity even if they disagree with the other persons agreement there should be no reason to bring real life into the argument.

 

[Tyrath]

I'd like to invite everyone who agrees with this to go die in a fire.


Ok, not really >_>

I personally agree with halifirien on this one. But I'm not really gonna be overly bothered with it if its done..

 

[Arctyrael]

In taking the "look the other way" stance; I have determined a very logical point that has yet to be made.

While the standard userbase may read these RL attacks, there are very few that actually make them. Therefore, it could be argued that in disallowing them, there is little to no impact on the contributions to any given OP. Supposing this holds true, then we can expect threads to degrade no further than the caliber of topics that exist on the FB that exist without personal details.

/2 cents, ok, maybe 1 cent; This is more so an inductive reasoning to say, either way, it won't affect but a few posters that would revert to using RL details in their posts.

 

[CmdrFly]

This wagon rolls around every 6 months or so doesn't it?

While death threats and the like are especially heinous, there is a ton of content that, speaking as a parent, is completely inappropriate. It is up to their parents to moderate their internet activity, though, not the mods.

Not to attack your position Linh, but herein lies one defect of technology we have to account for. You can't block your kid from only the Flameboard unless you're watching them while they surf.

Nanny-style programs generally block by domain as a one-time fee, or website content as a subscription-based fee. So either way you're blocking them from QCDN as a whole - not an ideal solution for the kid. QCDN does not have sub-domains that might be permitted as an exception either. So as far as I can see, there's no effective way to block only parts of the site. I admit some ignorance in the web filtering world.

QCDN shouldn't have an age requirement. It's for a game for people of all ages and that's exactly the crowd that plays it. There's no doubt that a kid on the Internet will find stuff they shouldn't. But assume a parent allows their kid to visit this game forum. If we let the FB fly free, the kid may find material or e-motions that inspire the anarchy within.

I'm not saying a 12yr old will become obsessed by Satan after reading a death threat online. But why provide any venue for inappropriate material on a forum which is really quite focussed on something completely appropriate? I'm no parent but I suspect there are many out there that wouldn't want their kid reading Maddox-esque posts on QCDN. Some parents may blindly trust QCDN to have this level of sensibility in moderation and keeping the crap where it belongs, or deleting it if it doesn't. Granted, many other Maddox-esque comments are permitted on the FB but I tend to agree that death threats are of a much different nature than other threats/comments.

It creates more work for the mod team but it's part of the job. People blindly trust QCDN staff so QCDN staff tries to uphold their end of that non-existant agreement.

If anything I would say Dino went soft. I probably would've temp banned. Vive la pitchfork!

 

[Linhjah]

Not to attack your position Linh, but herein lies one defect of technology we have to account for. You can't block your kid from only the Flameboard unless you're watching them while they surf.

Nanny-style programs generally block by domain as a one-time fee, or website content as a subscription-based fee. So either way you're blocking them from QCDN as a whole - not an ideal solution for the kid. QCDN does not have sub-domains that might be permitted as an exception either. So as far as I can see, there's no effective way to block only parts of the site. I admit some ignorance in the web filtering world.

QCDN shouldn't have an age requirement. It's for a game for people of all ages and that's exactly the crowd that plays it. There's no doubt that a kid on the Internet will find stuff they shouldn't. But assume a parent allows their kid to visit this game forum. If we let the FB fly free, the kid may find material or e-motions that inspire the anarchy within.

I'm not saying a 12yr old will become obsessed by Satan after reading a death threat online. But why provide any venue for inappropriate material on a forum which is really quite focussed on something completely appropriate? I'm no parent but I suspect there are many out there that wouldn't want their kid reading Maddox-esque posts on QCDN. Some parents may blindly trust QCDN to have this level of sensibility in moderation and keeping the crap where it belongs, or deleting it if it doesn't. Granted, many other Maddox-esque comments are permitted on the FB but I tend to agree that death threats are of a much different nature than other threats/comments.

It creates more work for the mod team but it's part of the job. People blindly trust QCDN staff so QCDN staff tries to uphold their end of that non-existant agreement.

You're dead on that you can't monitor everything your child does all the time - that applies to everything, not just the intarwebz. You should monitor what you can IMO, including browser history, downloads, etc. I'm not talking about doing that type of stuff for your 17 year old, but if you're going to allow your 10 or 12 year old to surf, its a good idea to know what they're doing. The internet is full of people more dangerous than the "I hope you die"-style e-thug, and many people - espeically young people - are trusting and naive.

I think there is plenty of content on this site - especially on the FB - that is inappropriate for a younger audience. While it may not be quite on the same level as the "Burn in a fire" crap, it is still . If the interest is protecting children, I can get on bored with that, but just moderating out the death stuff seems kind of, well, a half assed effort of shielding them from stuff.

I guess I just see a lot of grey area where many see black and white or draw the line in a different spot.

If anything I would say Dino went soft. I probably would've temp banned. Vive la pitchfork!

There's a joke in there somewhere.

 

[Excalibur]

I understand this may be a "figure of speech" to some of you. Some of you it strikes you as insensitivity and disregard for another persons life. What I am asking is, what is the majority here? Before moves are taken to start emphasizing comments such as "kill yourself" and "waste of human life" and other RL attacks to be more emphasized in the guidelines, what is your opinion? Wrong or no?



How about no RL ID'able and no RL attacks just to make it clear?

I won't make this a vote. Feel free to post your opinions and if you don't feel comfortable making them public, I have a brand new huge PM box that can hold all the PMs I can handle. -.^ Feel free to also voice your opinions privately.

I disagree Scu- oops, Audino. I think things like that are totally acceptable(although kind of annoying) in the FB. Saying something like "you're a waste of human life" is no different than calling someone an idiot or a dumbass, it's just a little more.. graphic. I agree that RL threats and etc should be left out, but this is not a case of anything having to do with anyone's real life. It's an insult. That's all. Saying "go kill yourself" is just as much of a RL insult as "you're retarded". You're refering to their mental capacity in their real life, aren't you?

 

[Audino]

Saying "go kill yourself" is just as much of a RL insult as "you're retarded". You're refering to their mental capacity in their real life, aren't you?

I see where you're coming from. There's still a difference between saying "go kill yourself" because someone is dumb and just saying "you're dumb" but leaving their existence as a non factor. People do dumb things in the game that warrant them being called such. You could have the smartest motherfucker in RL buy gil or something and power level a craft. He deserves to be called an idiot because of the actions. He shouldn't necessarily receive encouragement to end his life. There's plenty of stupid people around us that its not said to. Why say it at all?

 

[Audino]

You're dead on that you can't monitor everything your child does all the time - that applies to everything, not just the intarwebz. You should monitor what you can IMO, including browser history, downloads, etc. I'm not talking about doing that type of stuff for your 17 year old, but if you're going to allow your 10 or 12 year old to surf, its a good idea to know what they're doing. The internet is full of people more dangerous than the "I hope you die"-style e-thug, and many people - espeically young people - are trusting and naive.

I think there is plenty of content on this site - especially on the FB - that is inappropriate for a younger audience. While it may not be quite on the same level as the "Burn in a fire" crap, it is still . If the interest is protecting children, I can get on bored with that, but just moderating out the death stuff seems kind of, well, a half assed effort of shielding them from stuff.

I guess I just see a lot of grey area where many see black and white or draw the line in a different spot.

Also a good point but I don't think many users of the site are around that age range. Thats not a huge worry. However there are people that seem to have the mindset that of a 10 or 12 year old. Anyone at any age can be extremely influenced by a community that they look up to and respect.

If anything I would say Dino went soft. I probably would've temp banned. Vive la pitchfork!

Maybe so. I'm still the green guy on the team (no pun intended, really) and I'm still in a "feeling out" stage. In all honesty, I considered an official warning but realized there wasn't really anything in the guidelines that would have justified it enough in my eyes. I've been on the other side for quite some time now and I know how mods are generally viewed at times of action and how impulsive they may seem at times. I have to at least start with a good impression!

There's a joke in there somewhere.

I know you are attempting to lighten the mood in the thread a bit, which is fine, but avoiding further setups for possible derails and posts not pertaining to the matter at hand would be appreciated. I know how threads get around here >_>

 

[CmdrFly]

I guess I just see a lot of grey area where many see black and white or draw the line in a different spot.

You've got sound, valid points and I really have no reasonable basis to protest them.

It's those gray areas that usually trigger debates and arguments from the users when they are on the receiving end of a penalty. It would be nice to resolve that. I'll give props and a GL to Dino and all other mods involved for trying to turn that gray into a black or white. This is one hurdle I could not overcome in my day.

 

[Linhjah]

I'll give props and a GL to Dino and all other mods involved for trying to turn that gray into a black or white. This is one hurdle I could not overcome in my day.

I completely agree with this; solidifying boundaries and implementation of any policy concerning a grey area is a very difficult process. I think its cool people are willing to put themselves through that headache (for many issues, not just this one) to try and make the community better.

And you may have not tackled this particular issue during your time as admin, but you did a hell of a lot IMO. It was pretty obvious, to me at least, that you were in it for the right reasons and took it seriousy enough to do some good things.

 

[Bladewind]

I can see this argument from both sides, and personally, i don't think it should be necessary to moderate the flame board because people would have a base level of human decency towards one another, unfortunatly thats not the case and i've seen posts that are honestly pathetic in respect to an argument. I would never say something along the lines of 'go kill yourself' or even 'I hope you die in a fire' because it's totally unneeded and to be honest, very childish. So, i guess i'm agreeing with Audino, moderation shouldn't be needed, but it is.

On a related topic (at least it involves the flame board) I don't think i'm the only one who is bored of seeing every topic devolve into who can post the most retarded pictures fastest, while every now and again a picture can lighten the mood and make you laugh the endless barrage of pics and videos that get thrown around are nothing but boring, personally i'd like to see some sort of 'read-only' punishment, but purely for the FB so they can still post in the other sections of the site, i can think of 2-3 people (who i wont name) that add nothing to the FB topics and would make several threads more interesting to read if they just weren't there.

Before anyone suggests i use the ignore function, i'm not saying i don't like these specific people and i like to be able to see there posts on the rest of the site, but they are making the FB more of a joke than it already is.

 

[Kairiboo]

I'll agree with you there Blade, it drives me crazy to see people post again and again with nothing more to say than. "*Grabs Popcorn*, or "I see what you did thar!!" Nothing to contribute and again it's not any one player in general. Just people doing that or throwing random pictures around. But that is the flameboard and nothing really 'offensive' about people being annoying. It is sad that people can't keep themselves from posting (what I feel to be improper things) such as "Die in a fire" etc. As lovely as it would be to not NEED moderation in the flameboard I think some is.

 

[diamond]

I'll agree with you there Blade, it drives me crazy to see people post again and again with nothing more to say than. "*Grabs Popcorn*, or "I see what you did thar!!" Nothing to contribute and again it's not any one player in general. Just people doing that or throwing random pictures around. But that is the flameboard and nothing really 'offensive' about people being annoying. It is sad that people can't keep themselves from posting (what I feel to be improper things) such as "Die in a fire" etc. As lovely as it would be to not NEED moderation in the flameboard I think some is.

I have to agree with this.. its one thing to acctually debate something.. but i get sick of seeing the same old retorts all the time.. your retarted seems to be a favie or your a moron.. or some other stupid retort.. there is rarely any intelligence used on the FB and i use the term "intelligence" loosly. But you are right Aud, something needs to be done.. it just goes back to the whole people getting angry because the feel like you are infringing on thier rights to say or type what ever the feel like.. but see most people dont know when to stop or how to edit thierselves prior to speaking or typing.. I dont know anywhere aside from maybe a bar where people talk to eachother they way they do on the flame board.. 9 times out of 10 its just down right disrespectful the way people talk to eachother.

And on the kids thing.. I would never let my son come here.. he thinks that the game is fantastic.. and unfortunatly.. reading the flameboard would probably change his mind..anyway.. thats my thoughts on it.. sorry if im a lil rambly sounding have been up for many hrs and work sucked.. lol :crazy:

 

[sixpack]

Kairiboo's expanding on the points BW made are right on target from what I'm seeing.

 

[Miros]

I'd really like to see this moved back towards FFXI only. It's like I've said before, I don't want to have the forum known for bashing people's RL life. Regardless, I'm glad Dino brought this up and I'm hoping we can progress this more.