Fuck RPGamer...

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Tyrion

Tyrion

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I've sworn and sworn I wouldn't visit RPGamer anymore - sites without standards of quality piss me off. However, today I violated my vow and read this article, and lookee lookee:



RPGamer said:
Letter Writer: Some of us like to toy with different workable, but weird sub job combinations. This gets us no love and no invites to parties ... Isn't an MMORPG about doing what you want to do? Why can't I get away with doing it in FFXI?

Editor: Because most people who play FFXI are tools ... The worst thing about it is that these closed-minded players try to make an excuse by creating an imaginary divide between themselves and "ordinary" players by calling themselves "hard core." Hard core what? Hard core freaking nerds if you ask me.
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Yes, MMORPGs are about doing what you wanna do - that goes for everyone, hence me doing what I want to do involves not inviting you if you're a fucking gimp. You could always start your own party.

Thats it, no more RPGamer for me.

FUCK YOU, RPGAMER.

*Yes, that's right, I worked there a long time ago. Got fired because I couldn't get online for a week.
 
You know, there are plenty of godly job/sub combinations that mainstream morons(let's just cut that down to MM from here on out, so that you will actually see what MMORPG stands for) would never invite or party with because they're too caught up in their own beliefs of bullshit to actually experiment in the game. I suggest you cut the people some slack. If all they're doing is playing a different combination and actually have good equipment and food, you never know, they may wipe the floor with your ass, so watch out. One such exceptionally awesome combo I've seen so far kicking ass at 60 is DRK/NIN with axe/sword/rampage, which I know a lot of you idiots would have a cow over.
 
I PT'ed with a PLD/NIN before.

He was awesome.






At dying.
 
Svina said:
I PT'ed with a PLD/NIN before.

He was awesome.






At dying.
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Thats bullshit right there. The reason people don't play pld/nin is because they can't hold hate, (which leaves them alive btw). In order for a pld/nin to be awesome at dying he'd either have to be the best pld/nin ever (able to keep hate through anything),or your party wasn't doing its job right and he was misrable at his. Its fucking ridiculous that you just suggested that the pld/nin job combo isn't viable because it is underpowered and dies more than a regular pld would. The ONLY reason this combo isn't good is because you simply can't effectively tank without provoke, and if you could, pld/nin would be the best tank in the game.
 
It's just sad to see people who are supposed to be intelligent enough to run a magazine to make such an idiotic generalization. It's fine and dandy when players do that because who the heck is listening to us except other gamers in our position.

The idiot editor who's saying such things is obviously quite quick to stereotype and probably has his bias opinions in many of the articles. I don't know. Why would you insult what I would imagine is a big portion of your reader base? It just confuses me. Maybe it's because they're so big that they'll be the next Microsoft of...umm....gaming literature(?) that they don't care who reads it.
 
Noxxx said:
Thats bullshit right there. The reason people don't play pld/nin is because they can't hold hate, (which leaves them alive btw). In order for a pld/nin to be awesome at dying he'd either have to be the best pld/nin ever (able to keep hate through anything),or your party wasn't doing its job right and he was misrable at his. Its fucking ridiculous that you just suggested that the pld/nin job combo isn't viable because it is underpowered and dies more than a regular pld would. The ONLY reason this combo isn't good is because you simply can't effectively tank without provoke, and if you could, pld/nin would be the best tank in the game.
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Paladins have the highest hate modifier in the game, thus everything they do in the game generates more hate points than any other job. This is how they tank, not because they have or don’t have provoke. They only need provoke to get hate from the Puller, or to give them a fast easy way to generate hate points, when they need it. A good paladin and a party doing its job, the paladin will never provoke again after the first provoke.

If a PLD/NIN is also pulling he has no need to provoke off the Puller. For it to work, the party will have to stand back for several rounds, while the monster beats on the PLD. He then casts a heavy cure Spell Generating a large amount of hate. Having Dual wield will allow the PLD to use two swords. The damage a PLD does is not there to be damage, it just a method of allowing them keep generating hate points constantly during a battle, trying to keep head of the other party members. Once the PLD has generated a large amount of hate points, he is then able to start blink tanking. Blink tanking works because every time a monster hits you, you loose hate points. If the monster is unable to hit the tank, the tank does not loose hate points.

The reason why this doesn’t work is it is very risky to allow your health to drop to a level needed to generate that large of an amount of hate at the start of a battle. The delay time causes by using Dual wield dose not actually add up to generating more hate over time than what using a single sword does, thus he has trouble generating more hate than the rest of the party is generating. Casting the Ninja Blink Spell takes time. In most cases unless a RDM has gotten his enfeebles to stick, the PLD will get interrupted before he can even cast it. The other down side is the PLD is no longer tanking any damage. Casting Cure for 0 points on him self is going to generate 0 hate point, thus the party will then be able generate more hate points than what the tank can generate. The reason why PLD/NIN doesn’t work is not only because he doesn’t have provoke, but because he won’t take any damage. Curing him self is his number 1 hate generating ability he has, not provoke and his damage output will not be enough to keep up.

This is a good example of somebody knowing that something is wrong, but really not understanding the “WHY” it is wrong.
 
Pascal said:
Noxxx said:
Thats bullshit right there. The reason people don't play pld/nin is because they can't hold hate, (which leaves them alive btw). In order for a pld/nin to be awesome at dying he'd either have to be the best pld/nin ever (able to keep hate through anything),or your party wasn't doing its job right and he was misrable at his. Its fucking ridiculous that you just suggested that the pld/nin job combo isn't viable because it is underpowered and dies more than a regular pld would. The ONLY reason this combo isn't good is because you simply can't effectively tank without provoke, and if you could, pld/nin would be the best tank in the game.
Click to expand...

Paladins have the highest hate modifier in the game, thus everything they do in the game generates more hate points than any other job. This is how they tank, not because they have or don’t have provoke. They only need provoke to get hate from the Puller, or to give them a fast easy way to generate hate points, when they need it. A good paladin and a party doing its job, the paladin will never provoke again after the first provoke.

If a PLD/NIN is also pulling he has no need to provoke off the Puller. For it to work, the party will have to stand back for several rounds, while the monster beats on the PLD. He then casts a heavy cure Spell Generating a large amount of hate. Having Dual wield will allow the PLD to use two swords. The damage a PLD does is not there to be damage, it just a method of allowing them keep generating hate points constantly during a battle, trying to keep head of the other party members. Once the PLD has generated a large amount of hate points, he is then able to start blink tanking. Blink tanking works because every time a monster hits you, you loose hate points. If the monster is unable to hit the tank, the tank does not loose hate points.

The reason why this doesn’t work is it is very risky to allow your health to drop to a level needed to generate that large of an amount of hate at the start of a battle. The delay time causes by using Dual wield dose not actually add up to generating more hate over time than what using a single sword does, thus he has trouble generating more hate than the rest of the party is generating. Casting the Ninja Blink Spell takes time. In most cases unless a RDM has gotten his enfeebles to stick, the PLD will get interrupted before he can even cast it. The other down side is the PLD is no longer tanking any damage. Casting Cure for 0 points on him self is going to generate 0 hate point, thus the party will then be able generate more hate points than what the tank can generate. The reason why PLD/NIN doesn’t work is not only because he doesn’t have provoke, but because he won’t take any damage. Curing him self is his number 1 hate generating ability he has, not provoke and his damage output will not be enough to keep up.

This is a good example of somebody knowing that something is wrong, but really not understanding the “WHY” it is wrong.
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Not sure why you think i don't know "WHY" it is wrong. You can explain all you want why its possible in end game, but for say a 30pld/15 nin your explanation is irrelevent. Your explanation is great for maybe 1% of all party situations, but in other 99% of situations, pld/nin doesn't work because they lack provoke. A low level pld can't hold hate just by casting heavy cure spells, they lack the mp to do it effectively unless they're using massive amounts of juice. In your average party the paladin is still going to need to provoke regularly to keep solid hate, and that is why pld/nin doesn't work. Theres a big differnce between what the perfect player in the perfect party could do with against the perfect mob, and what the rest of us would face on a regular basis.

Though, if you do use the strategy of attempting to start blink tanking halfway through the fight, then yes, i guess a pld/nin would be good at dying. A much better strategy would be to start the fight with Utsusemi on, let the back up tank take more damage before the sata goes off, and then flash and drop your heavy cure on the secondary tank after the thf satas onto you. Thinking you're going to be able to tank and cast Utsusemi at the same time isn't going to work for shit. Ultimately though, the strategy isn't going to work without provoke, theres just not enough Hate, and you really couldn't party without a thief, and somebody who has provoke.
 
good example is war/nin...war nin can lose hate even with the more dmg that he can produce than a pld/nin not to mention the ability of provoke. flash takes way to long to cast and cure 3/4 will drain mp fast even with refresh. you just would not be able to hold hate well. war/nin will hold it better in this instance. not to mention, if pld/nin was that viable, every pld would do it
 
What I was explaining has nothing to do with End Game. The Paladins I party with at level 30-35 hits provoke once maybe twice during a long fight. The moment they are able to fully use a Cure spell, they cast it. Couple that with my Regen, and they use maybe a little over half there MP during a fight. The only time I cure a Paladin is if they are getting very close to or in the Red. The only person that should ever do anything at the start of a fight is a Red Mage or Thief, allowing the Paladin time to build up a pool of hate points. Once he has a head start on everyone else, it is just a matter of maintaining it. You are having a problem maintaining hate, because your party isn’t giving you a chance to build up, thus you are spending all your time playing catch up. I agree Paladins need provoke, so they can get a very fast quick boost to there hate pool, but they shouldn’t need it to maintain hate, because provoke dose not generate as much hate as you think. Cure spells (not including 2hr abilities) are the highest hate generating action in the game. This is why I can cast a Cure II spell at the start of a fight right after your provoke and take hate right back from you. I do it all the time to get hit.
 
Pascal said:
What I was explaining has nothing to do with End Game. The Paladins I party with at level 30-35 hits provoke once maybe twice during a long fight. The moment they are able to fully use a Cure spell, they cast it. Couple that with my Regen, and they use maybe a little over half there MP during a fight. The only time I cure a Paladin is if they are getting very close to or in the Red. The only person that should ever do anything at the start of a fight is a Red Mage or Thief, allowing the Paladin time to build up a pool of hate points. Once he has a head start on everyone else, it is just a matter of maintaining it. You are having a problem maintaining hate, because your party isn’t giving you a chance to build up, thus you are spending all your time playing catch up. I agree Paladins need provoke, so they can get a very fast quick boost to there hate pool, but they shouldn’t need it to maintain hate, because provoke dose not generate as much hate as you think. Cure spells (not including 2hr abilities) are the highest hate generating action in the game. This is why I can cast a Cure II spell at the start of a fight right after your provoke and take hate right back from you. I do it all the time to get hit.
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cure 2 in higher lvls will never pull hate. rarely even cure 3 either for that matter. around the 30's pld is very gimped. hard to hold hate. in the 50's is when it starts getting easier due to cure 3/4 and flash
 
masterorion said:
cure 2 in higher lvls will never pull hate. rarely even cure 3 either for that matter. around the 30's pld is very gimped. hard to hold hate. in the 50's is when it starts getting easier due to cure 3/4 and flash
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Correct, there hate modifier goes up as they go up in levels, thus there actions times there hate modifier does more hate.

Let’s say a Paladin at level 30 has a hate modifier of 13
A red mage has a hate modifier of 11
You start the fight with your base hate points.

A cure hate point generation is equally to the amount of HP healed.
Provokes hate point modifier is set at 75.
Blind hate generation is at 25 hate points.

Paladin starts the fight with 13 hate points, Red Mage has 11.
I cast blind on the monster. The Red Mage generate 275 hate points (11 * 25 = 275) so now the Red Mage have 286 Hate Points (275 + 11)
The monster will come after the Red Mage since my hate points are greater than the Paladins hate points. (286 > 13)
Paladin Provokes and generates 975 (75 * 13 = 975) Hate Points giving him 988 (975 + 13) Hate Points.
The monster will now go after him since his hate points are higher than Red Mage. (286 < 988).
Red Mage cast Cure II on the Puller and heal him for 80 hit points, so I generate 880 hate points (80 * 11 = 880). So now the Red Mage has 1166 (286 + 880 = 1166) Hate Points.
Monster comes after me. (1166 > 988).
Monster hits the Red Mage for 52 Hit Points, generating 572 Hate Points (52 * 11 = 572).
The Red Mage now has 594 Hate Points. (1166 – 572 = 594)
The monster will return to attacking the Paladin. (594 < 988)
The monster hits the Paladin for 34 hit points (better armor and DEF stats) generating 442 hate points (34 * 13 = 442) giving him 546 (988 – 442 = 546).
Monster turns and looks at Red Mage.
Paladin casts Cure I on him self curing for 30 hit points and generates 390 (30 * 13 = 390) hate points giving him 936 hate points (546 + 390 = 936).
Monster turns and looks at Paladin.
Monster attacks Paladin but misses due to Blind (replaced with flash later which has an even higher modifier).
Paladin hits monster for 40 hit points generating 520 (40 * 13 = 520) giving him 1456 hate points (936 + 520 = 1456).

Now at level 50, that hate modifier will be different. The Red Mage may have 28 a Paladin has 36.
 
Theses are example formulas, since I’m not aware of anyone actually cracking the formula. Some where in there is another multiple since Cure V has 0 hate generation. So somewhere they are multiply by 0 on Cure V.
 
the formula about the pld thing is great and everything, however, that formula only produces 2 people. pld of which in your formula, used provoke. now im not saying that pld cant sub nin, because any job can sub whatever it wants, however, the question is.;..will it be feasible and work well. pld/nin is one of those jobs that is totally useless in pt. when getting hit, you have enough of a hard time casting cure if you dont time it right. imagine utsesemi where the cast timer is longer than cure 4(cure 4 can barely be casted when timed right) flash for one takes too long in between casts to be that effective. even with all hate modifiers for pld/war, it is easy to lose hate to a skill chain even after building a fair amount of hate
 
I'm sorry but I have played Paladin at both those low lvls and at the high end game levels. Without provoke, completely useless. And the PLD will be killed, after the rest of the party is torn to shreds and he's soloing the damn mob.
 
This is what I said in my orginal post. PLD/NIN is a bad choose, but not just because it doesn’t have provoke, but because it is removing a PLD ability to maintain there hate pool. The loss of provoke is only one part of the problems with PLD/NIN, not the only problem. Not having provoke is actually small since he doesn’t have any ability to generate any additional hate if he dose start blink tanking plus having two swords isn’t going to generate any additional hate because of the delay factor.

Noxxx wrote
The ONLY reason this combo isn't good is because you simply can't effectively tank without provoke, and if you could, pld/nin would be the best tank in the game.
Click to expand...

He is saying he can tank as a PLD with provoke and provoke only. No healing him self, no using his sword.

I am saying he needs to not only have provoke, but also take damage so he can cure him self, as well as use his sword to create additional hate and use any other methods at his disposes to take advantage of his higher hate modifier, which is what makes a Paladin a Paladin.
 
not to mention that without war your losing defender, etc. i may actually try pld nin with some friends to just mess around and see what happens on T mobs or something
 
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