Game Theory on Botting, discuss the stigma.

[Firestreak]

In reality the most effective botter is the guy who voke bots and then comes onto QCDN and denouces voke botting so that his opponents will decide never to use them, making himself the only one with the advantage.

 

[Hmkiroko]

How about everyone in the Aery does a <t> prior to the window opening so everyone is on the same playing field? The claim bots target the mob in memory, so if a botter types <t>, it will come up with the mobs name instead of a basic <t>.

This might be effective due to the "guilty until proven innocent" methodology that everyone seems to adapt. Why not do it if you are innocent? Only the problem people would be reluctant to par-take in such practices.

Instead of everyone deviating to the norm of "botting" just because it is the equilibrium in the game, why dont we introduce measures (like the one I just mentioned) to increase the "stigma" value of botting. Since the simple <t> check is easy to do, and if caught in real time, in front of everyone, will have real reprecussions (at least hopefully) within our bot fearing server.

Image is everything, and by doing this, I believe people will save face and claim legitly as opposed to dragging their name through the mud if proven that they are not legitimate.

Unfortunately there are ways around this, so it's not a perfect solution, but I think it's a start.

 

[Anttaru]

In my experiences i have seen what appears to be bot vokers, namely the Argus camp quite awhile ago, where one would provoke the 1st thing that pops, then while killing it, they would provoke the mob every 30 seconds or so while fighting it solo. Fortunatly i have had the oppertunity to challenge the bot, and learn that the bot can be beaten. This was the spam clain days for the record.

Other bots i'd assume of have no secondary macro, and we all heard stories of someone provoking mobs over and over again while they stand there allowing the mob to kill them.

Now.

SE has implemented a 1 second wait on claiming HNM. Being an online game there is no true accuracy to the desending & receptive signals, which makes it possible outclaim a bot.

There are cases where we can target an HNM before it appears visually. (If my memory serves me correct before SE added the wait on claiming which ofcoarse eliminated the the good old spam claiming)

The solution to defeating todays bots ?
I have a theory on how the bots work, and how we can match it's design to beat it, and ofcoarse this would render the bot into a lazy vokers tool, rather than an advantage tool.

-Here's my theory on how the voke bot works, granted the fact they are often reffered to as "illeagal macros"

There is autofire, where as the bot will constantly do a /targetnpc. The automated action kicks in when it actually targets an NPC, or perhapse the desired NPC, i have doubts on that one though.

-Here is my solution to dealing with voke bots.

You must create 2 macros.
Macro 1) /targetnpc

Macro 2) /targetnpc
/wait 1 (maybe need to be /wait 2)
/ja "Provoke" <t>

Note: Macro 1 is what you use to bring back the good old spam days. The very instant you catch a single hiss of target, it's a good idea to punch the Macro 2 and watch what you caught.
Again sometimes waiting to actually see the HNM visually can and in many cases is miss-leading and will cost you claim time.

The Bot which probably relies on this same method is given an advantage over those who wait for visual confirmation obviously a software such as this will not rely on visual input giving it an advantage on those who do.

I have faith that this theory is good enough to prouduce results, as we are all aware of the inaccurate connection between us and the server, same goes for the bot which does exist on the users PC.

Even though this theory can earn me and my mates alot of success, i wish to see it shared by the rest of you to take down todays claim botters.

Perhapse some already use this method of approach and are accused of botting.

 

[Firestreak]

Not so sure that the <t> command thing would actually work, and even if it did people wouldn't want to alert the world exactly when a pop window was going to start even if they thought they all knew the exact window.

 

[Firestreak]

Anttaru I'm sure the best bots out there are flawless in design and compensate exactly for when the mob becomes vokable, the reason legit people get claims is either no one is botting, the bot is not built right(either it was always shitty or it was thrown off by an update) or the commands issued from the bot is delayed to the server by an unpredictable lag spike. If we were all playing directly connected to a LAN then voke botters would win every time 100%.

 

[Anttaru]

How about everyone in the Aery does a <t> prior to the window opening so everyone is on the same playing field? The claim bots target the mob in memory, so if a botter types <t>, it will come up with the mobs name instead of a basic <t>.

This might be effective due to the "guilty until proven innocent" methodology that everyone seems to adapt. Why not do it if you are innocent? Only the problem people would be reluctant to par-take in such practices.

Instead of everyone deviating to the norm of "botting" just because it is the equilibrium in the game, why dont we introduce measures (like the one I just mentioned) to increase the "stigma" value of botting. Since the simple <t> check is easy to do, and if caught in real time, in front of everyone, will have real reprecussions (at least hopefully) within our bot fearing server.

Image is everything, and by doing this, I believe people will save face and claim legitly as opposed to dragging their name through the mud if proven that they are not legitimate.

Unfortunately there are ways around this, so it's not a perfect solution, but I think it's a start.

Gah ! Very simular to what i wrote indeed. except <t> should be /targetnpc spammed before the actual catch macro is released.

Not sure if you'd understand, if you were around during the spam claim days or not. But back then we were closer to the equilibrium, just the Japanese were faster.

 

[Anttaru]

Anttaru I'm sure the best bots out there are flawless in design and compensate exactly for when the mob becomes vokable,

The Bot cannot be flawless in design, Never ! Due to fluxuations in the send and recieve signals. We see it all the time, sometimes our macros with secondary commands fail because of this. The same upon HNM entries. Todays fair players wait for the model to load, where as the bot does not, this is what gives the bot the advantage.

the reason legit people get claims is either no one is botting, the bot is not built right(either it was always shitty or it was thrown off by an update) or the commands issued from the bot is delayed to the server by an unpredictable lag spike. If we were all playing directly connected to a LAN then voke botters would win every time 100%.

But we are not all networked directly which makes the bot as imperfect as we are. Remember the spam days. The bot was beatable.

 

[Mattaru]

Ant, the issue I have always found with /targetnpc is that if you are relying on a quick claim a mob could be closer than you than the NM and it will automatically target that pet or regular npc mob. I find that one macro reading:

/stnpc
/wait 0.5 (can assume that you will hit lag to delay, but I have used Charm on an NM before "target is already claimed" but not getting the claim with a 0.3)
/ja Charm/Provoke/ChiBlast etc

This relies on you spamming tab and being able to catch the mob name before it is fully popped. A good bot throws all that out of the window because it doesn't rely on a sense of the user.

EDIT: Raes the slippery-slope argument isn't appilcable because any other manner of cheating is detectable, so there is no slope to slide down.

 

[Anttaru]

Ant, the issue I have always found with /targetnpc is that if you are relying on a quick claim a mob could be closer than you than the NM and it will automatically target that pet or regular npc mob. I find that one macro reading:

/stnpc
/wait 0.5 (can assume that you will hit lag to delay, but I have used Charm on an NM before "target is already claimed" but not getting the claim with a 0.3)
/ja Charm/Provoke/ChiBlast etc

This relies on you spamming tab and being able to catch the mob name before it is fully popped. A good bot throws all that out of the window because it doesn't rely on a sense of the user.

EDIT: Raes the slippery-slope argument isn't appilcable because any other manner of cheating is detectable, so there is no slope to slide down.

Yes Mat, but you must remember. The area's where the claim bot is a major issue, is at HNM camps. In Dragons Aery for example. A well timed clean out of the Darter flies eliminates the worry of catching something other than the HNM when the window is open.

EDIT: And the Window, we know.

 

[Mattaru]

Yeah I understand, and then yeah the /targetnpc is faster by one keystroke in such a case. Clearing the room gives the players an edge against a bot but doesn't negate a bots effectiveness, because even if a bot is top of the line its automatic, it still bypasses human error ,besides the slight programming imperfection or lag spike that can happen to anyone. When you move faster than a machine, its purely luck.

 

[Anttaru]

Remember. If we exacute the macro too soon, we reecieve a penality, so it's more of a timing thing than a speed thing, plus the lag issues not even the bot can correct. We can go against the bot. Remember. It's possible to claim NM and HNM before it even appears. Many of us have forgotten this. The later generation would have no idea of this. The bots true advantage, is that we wait for visual confirmation where as the bot already targeted the mob and is already processing the 2nd macro for the catch.

 

[Mattaru]

To Hmk: If a stigma against botting can be a way to make it detectable than I see that as a solution, but there are parameters that binds everyone to that via a stigma. IE if they are japanese or gilsellers, or people who straight up don't give a shit if the community knows they bot - apply that to a linkshell in its entirety. Those players can continue playing if their image is tarnished by NA experience with those players unimpeded. Thus the one defecter still makes a logical decision making calculus lean to botting.

 

[Hmkiroko]

Not so sure that the <t> command thing would actually work, and even if it did people wouldn't want to alert the world exactly when a pop window was going to start even if they thought they all knew the exact window.

True, but ToD's aren't that much of a secret anyways. You just find out when everyone is spamming defender, casting Utsusemi, etc. I was just trying to provide a solution to increase the social stigma so botting would or could be decreased.

Gah ! Very simular to what i wrote indeed. except <t> should be /targetnpc spammed before the actual catch macro is released.

I'm trying to discuss not how we can beat the bots using conventional means, but to try and discourage it's use even though Mattaru states that in equilibrium, everyone will bot.

Let's try and stay on topic.

 

[Mattaru]

Remember. If we exacute the macro too soon, we reecieve a penality, so it's more of a timing thing than a speed thing, plus the lag issues not even the bot can correct. We can go against the bot. Remember. It's possible to claim NM and HNM before it even appears. Many of us have forgotten this. The later generation would have no idea of this. The bots true advantage, is that we wait for visual confirmation where as the bot already targeted the mob and is already processing the 2nd macro for the catch.

I just don't see why if I rely on a macro line which represents coding for an action that will adjust for the timing before an NM popping (red dot, name only in target window) can not be duplicated in a bot.

Link, self explanatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un2kC-AVLCs

 

[Hmkiroko]

Those players can continue playing if their image is tarnished by NA experience with those players unimpeded. Thus the one defecter still makes a logical decision making calculus lean to botting.

Yup, people who don't give a shit will still be un-impeded. I find that generally there is a flight to quality in terms of linkshells images, and personal images. Linkshells dont want to look bad, and people don't want any shit associated with them. There are far less people that want to have their rep tarnished somewhat.

As I said, its not a perfect solution, but one that might work in the interim.

 

[Mattaru]

Yeah, nonetheless I'd be interested to see what happens. I just doubt our community strength to actually bind themselves to it and not defect if it is already occuring.

 

[Anttaru]

I'm trying to discuss not how we can beat the bots using conventional means, but to try and discourage it's use even though Mattaru states that in equilibrium, everyone will bot.

Let's try and stay on topic.

I don't see how i went off topic.

Beating the bots, or atlleast matching them will render the bots into nothing more than a lazy persons tool. Making the bot obsolete is as discouraging as it gets.

 

[Anttaru]

I just don't see why if I rely on a macro line which represents coding for an action that will adjust for the timing before an NM popping (red dot, name only in target window) can not be duplicated in a bot.

Link, self explanatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un2kC-AVLCs

The Bot itself is a macro, and the difference between us and the bot is milliseconds. Sometimes the bot will win sometimes it won't due to lag.

Making the macro line that represents the fine tuned time code, is only usefull when used to end of a spam of the first macro.

exampe: "spam macro 1" = Hold ALT and rapidly press 1111111111111111

Upon the first glimpse of touchdown press ALT 2 (wherever the macro is set)

This would challenge the bot alot better than waiting for visual confirmation as in many cases we can target the mob before we see it.

 

[Firestreak]

No one ever said bots always win. The point is that bots add an advantage. Bots can be made to account for anything, and the only thing that prevents a bot from executing flawless claims is things outside of the bot that act to slow it down.

For example: Lag, slow computer, ext.

Now here's the kicker, someone could make a bot that reads your I/O numbers so that it adjusts and executes when it thinks the lag will put it on the exact right window. Imagine there's a tenth of a second leeway do the lag fluctuations that it doesn't know. As in your sending is fluctuating between 200 and 300 thousands of a second. If the bot goes for .200 seconds delay on its provoke, and the delay ends up at .300 seconds, then .1 seconds too early causes an early claim and the tool is then inaffective and result is claim is lost.

Or if they set it at 300 delay and there's only a .200 delay then it claims .100 seconds too late and perhaps someone else sneaks in during that 10th of a second and takes the claim.

Now if there's 100 people in the zone trying to claim, that 10th of a second leads to a lot of opportunity for failure. So yes, bots can be beaten, but there's no advantage a player can have over a perfect bot. Sure, you can try to adjust to lag but your lag goes up and down just like the bots and you can't adjust for the window as perfectly. You can get lucky spamming it and because there's enough of you maybe one of you will get it with a .02 second lateness, however, the more botters the more likely a botter is going to have a tighter range of claim/pop, as in bot predicts .434 delay and it's a .456 delay... no one is beating that.
Lag adds an element of chance but the botter is statistically more likely to win. You can get luckier than the bot but there's no system you can devise to make yourself more likely than them to claim except huge amounts of numbers.

 

[Mattaru]

The Bot itself is a macro, and the difference between us and the bot is milliseconds. Sometimes the bot will win sometimes it won't due to lag.

Making the macro line that represents the fine tuned time code, is only usefull when used to end of a spam of the first macro.

exampe: "spam macro 1" = Hold ALT and rapidly press 1111111111111111

Upon the first glimpse of touchdown press ALT 2 (wherever the macro is set)

This would challenge the bot alot better than waiting for visual confirmation as in many cases we can target the mob before we see it.

I really just don't think that no one out there is using good macro setups capable of beating a bot assuming the bot runs into lag (which also assumes you are lucky enough to not run into lag). It is intuitive really, yet a bot almost all the time is going to win. Castle Oztroja for 4-5 months <Please check it.> you were lucky to get the claim if the red dot popped on you when Vebaasjdfsomething was the seller there.