Gay Marriage 2.0

Savage on Colbert:
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=210299

Huckabee on The View (Paraphrase: Gays need to be the victims of violence in order to stake a claim to a civil rights movement):


Governor Schwarzenegger:


NY Times article on LDS involvement in Prop 8:
SACRAMENTO — Less than two weeks before Election Day, the chief strategist behind a ballot measure outlawing same-sex marriage in California called an emergency meeting here.

“We’re going to lose this campaign if we don’t get more money,” the strategist, Frank Schubert, recalled telling leaders of Protect Marriage, the main group behind the ban.

The campaign issued an urgent appeal, and in a matter of days, it raised more than $5 million, including a $1 million donation from Alan C. Ashton, the grandson of a former president of the Mormon Church. The money allowed the drive to intensify a sharp-elbowed advertising campaign, and support for the measure was catapulted ahead; it ultimately won with 52 percent of the vote.

As proponents of same-sex marriage across the country planned protests on Saturday against the ban, interviews with the main forces behind the ballot measure showed how close its backers believe it came to defeat — and the extraordinary role Mormons played in helping to pass it with money, institutional support and dedicated volunteers.

“We’ve spoken out on other issues, we’ve spoken out on abortion, we’ve spoken out on those other kinds of things,” said Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormons are formally called, in Salt Lake City. “But we don’t get involved to the degree we did on this.”

The California measure, Proposition 8, was to many Mormons a kind of firewall to be held at all costs.

“California is a huge state, often seen as a bellwether — this was seen as a very, very important test,” Mr. Otterson said.

First approached by the Roman Catholic archbishop of San Francisco a few weeks after the California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, the Mormons were the last major religious group to join the campaign, and the final spice in an unusual stew that included Catholics, evangelical Christians, conservative black and Latino pastors, and myriad smaller ethnic groups with strong religious ties.

Shortly after receiving the invitation from the San Francisco Archdiocese, the Mormon leadership in Salt Lake City issued a four-paragraph decree to be read to congregations, saying “the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan,” and urging members to become involved with the cause.

“And they sure did,” Mr. Schubert said.

Jeff Flint, another strategist with Protect Marriage, estimated that Mormons made up 80 percent to 90 percent of the early volunteers who walked door-to-door in election precincts.

The canvass work could be exacting and highly detailed. Many Mormon wards in California, not unlike Roman Catholic parishes, were assigned two ZIP codes to cover. Volunteers in one ward, according to training documents written by a Protect Marriage volunteer, obtained by people opposed to Proposition 8 and shown to The New York Times, had tasks ranging from “walkers,” assigned to knock on doors; to “sellers,” who would work with undecided voters later on; and to “closers,” who would get people to the polls on Election Day.

Suggested talking points were equally precise. If initial contact indicated a prospective voter believed God created marriage, the church volunteers were instructed to emphasize that Proposition 8 would restore the definition of marriage God intended.

But if a voter indicated human beings created marriage, Script B would roll instead, emphasizing that Proposition 8 was about marriage, not about attacking gay people, and about restoring into law an earlier ban struck down by the State Supreme Court in May.

“It is not our goal in this campaign to attack the homosexual lifestyle or to convince gays and lesbians that their behavior is wrong — the less we refer to homosexuality, the better,” one of the ward training documents said. “We are pro-marriage, not anti-gay.”

Leaders were also acutely conscious of not crossing the line from being a church-based volunteer effort to an actual political organization.

“No work will take place at the church, including no meeting there to hand out precinct walking assignments so as to not even give the appearance of politicking at the church,” one of the documents said.

By mid-October, most independent polls showed support for the proposition was growing, but it was still trailing. Opponents had brought on new media consultants in the face of the slipping poll numbers, but they were still effectively raising money, including $3.9 million at a star-studded fund-raiser held at the Beverly Hills home of Ron Burkle, the supermarket billionaire and longtime Democratic fund-raiser.

It was then that Mr. Schubert called his meeting in Sacramento. “I said, ‘As good as our stuff is, it can’t withstand that kind of funding,’ ” he recalled.

The response was a desperate e-mail message sent to 92,000 people who had registered at the group’s Web site declaring a “code blue” — an urgent plea for money to save traditional marriage from “cardiac arrest.” Mr. Schubert also sent an e-mail message to the three top religious members of his executive committee, representing Catholics, evangelicals and Mormons.

“I ask for your prayers that this e-mail will open the hearts and minds of the faithful to make a further sacrifice of their funds at this urgent moment so that God’s precious gift of marriage is preserved,” he wrote.

On Oct. 28, Mr. Ashton, the grandson of the former Mormon president David O. McKay, donated $1 million. Mr. Ashton, who made his fortune as co-founder of the WordPerfect Corporation, said he was following his personal beliefs and the direction of the church.

“I think it was just our realizing that we heard a number of stories about members of the church who had worked long hours and lobbied long and hard,” he said in a telephone interview from Orem, Utah.

In the end, Protect Marriage estimates, as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.

Even with the Mormons’ contributions and the strong support of other religious groups, Proposition 8 strategists said they had taken pains to distance themselves from what Mr. Flint called “more extreme elements” opposed to rights for gay men and lesbians.

To that end, the group that put the issue on the ballot rebuffed efforts by some groups to include a ban on domestic partnership rights, which are granted in California. Mr. Schubert cautioned his side not to stage protests and risk alienating voters when same-sex marriages began being performed in June.

“We could not have this as a battle between people of faith and the gays,” Mr. Schubert said. “That was a losing formula.”

But the “Yes” side also initially faced apathy from middle-of-the-road California voters who were largely unconcerned about same-sex marriage. The overall sense of the voters in the beginning of the campaign, Mr. Schubert said, was “Who cares? I’m not gay.”

To counter that, advertisements for the “Yes” campaign also used hypothetical consequences of same-sex marriage, painting the specter of churches’ losing tax exempt status or people “sued for personal beliefs” or objections to same-sex marriage, claims that were made with little explanation.

Another of the advertisements used video of an elementary school field trip to a teacher’s same-sex wedding in San Francisco to reinforce the idea that same-sex marriage would be taught to young children.

“We bet the campaign on education,” Mr. Schubert said.

The “Yes” campaign was denounced by opponents as dishonest and divisive, but the passage of Proposition 8 has led to second-guessing about the “No” campaign, too, as well as talk about a possible ballot measure to repeal the ban. Several legal challenges have been filed, and the question of the legality of the same-sex marriages performed from June to Election Day could also be settled in court.

For his part, Mr. Schubert said he is neither anti-gay — his sister is a lesbian — nor happy that some same-sex couples’ marriages are now in question. But, he said, he has no regrets about his campaign.

“They had a lot going for them,” Mr. Schubert said of his opponents. “And they couldn’t get it done.”

Mr. Otterson said it was too early to tell what the long-term implications might be for the church, but in any case, he added, none of that factored into the decision by church leaders to order a march into battle. “They felt there was only one way we could stand on such a fundamental moral issue, and they took that stand,” he said. “It was a matter of standing up for what the church believes is right.”

That said, the extent of the protests has taken many Mormons by surprise. On Friday, the church’s leadership took the unusual step of issuing a statement calling for “respect” and “civility” in the aftermath of the vote.

“Attacks on churches and intimidation of people of faith have no place in civil discourse over controversial issues,” the statement said. “People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal.”

Mr. Ashton described the protests by same-sex marriage advocates as off-putting. “I think that shows colors,” Mr. Ashton said. “By their fruit, ye shall know them.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/us/politics/15marriage.html?_r=4&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1226923233-99ttKWk0Q3bSKyTc5dFOZQ&oref=slogin
 
"Attacks on churches and intimidation of people of faith have no place in civil discourse over controversial issues,” the statement said. “People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal."

Epic-fucking-fail.

Nobody can do anything without fear of reprisal. Any time you express an opinion (much less act on it), you are opening yourself to criticism and backlash. You don't get to demonize the gay community and then act like you're above criticism or boycotts because you're a religion. If you act like an asshole, you can't start crying when people treat you like an asshole.

I want what that guy's smoking.
 
Epic-fucking-fail.

Nobody can do anything without fear of reprisal. Any time you express an opinion (much less act on it), you are opening yourself to criticism and backlash. You don't get to demonize the gay community and then act like you're above criticism or boycotts because you're a religion. If you act like an asshole, you can't start crying when people treat you like an asshole.

I want what that guy's smoking.

Even worse I find is the activism; all the while actively moving against the interests of his sister.
 
"Attacks on churches and intimidation of people of faith have no place in civil discourse over controversial issues,” the statement said. “People of faith have a democratic right to express their views in the public square without fear of reprisal."

The "People of faith" threw the first punch.

People of faith... I like how that implies anyone protesting them is a godless heathen.
 
Gays have every single right that straight people do. Saying gays have unequal rights and deserve something, is like saying black people should have special rights that pretains to thier own lifestyle that other races do not share. And they should have these rights simply because they are black.

I think thats unfair.

I actually think gays should have the right to marry. But at least go about it the right way in asking for something. Instead of accusing the world of being unfair.

If it is "Gay Unions" then it will be Gay Unions. Demanding to be included or to be treated "special" simply because you want something is unfair.

Gay Marriage is not equality, that is special treatment.
 
Gay Marriage is not equality, that is special treatment.

How is it special treatment? The rules would be the same for gay and straight couples, which sounds like equality to me. This culture drives it into your head from birth that marriage is the highest and most respected level of a relationship between two people. You shouldn't act surprised when an entire group is shut of it and wants in.
 
Gays have every single right that straight people do. Saying gays have unequal rights and deserve something, is like saying black people should have special rights that pretains to thier own lifestyle that other races do not share. And they should have these rights simply because they are black.

I think thats unfair.

I actually think gays should have the right to marry. But at least go about it the right way in asking for something. Instead of accusing the world of being unfair.

If it is "Gay Unions" then it will be Gay Unions. Demanding to be included or to be treated "special" simply because you want something is unfair.

Gay Marriage is not equality, that is special treatment.

It's not special treatment at all. People of different races couldn't marry not too long ago in this country. I suppose you're going to tell me that interracial married couples get special treatment too. Come on.

How would you like it if you fell in love with someone and the government came in and said, "No, you cannot marry this person. You can't have the health benefits, the tax benefits, the death benefits like every other loving couple is entitled to." You can tell yourself you'd just go along with it, so be it, but when the person you love gets sick and you can't make the decisions to save her because you have no authority, or when she dies and you're left with nothing despite the life you built together because you have no claim on anything that belonged to her, then talk to me about "special treatment."
 
Gay Marriage is not equality, that is special treatment.

I'm sorry are they human beings? Yes?

Then it's equality, otherwise you're dipping into the womens rights as well, equal or "special" because we can give birth and have T&A?

Gays, are people, regardless of what they want to do behind close doors, same as heterosexuals who enjoy S&M. We may not all agree, many may shun that practice, but regardless they're equal.
 
I re-watched the Colbert clip and I liked what Dan Savage said. We just have to wait for all the old bigots to die off and then things will start to change.
 
I re-watched the Colbert clip and I liked what Dan Savage said. We just have to wait for all the old bigots to die off and then things will start to change.


Then you have to deal with their kids/grandkids who were brought up with the same principles :(
 
Then you have to deal with their kids/grandkids who were brought up with the same principles :(

Nah. Bigots don't replace their ranks as easily as they'd like. They eventually get ground under and marginalized by the march of progress.
 
Nah. Bigots don't replace their ranks as easily as they'd like. They eventually get ground under and marginalized by the march of progress.

I gotta agree with Hali on this. Not to mention the internet is much more rampant these days and I think the younger generation may believe more on here then what they hear from their grandparents.

Hell, I would. :S
 
Nah. Bigots don't replace their ranks as easily as they'd like. They eventually get ground under and marginalized by the march of progress.

You hope,.. hate still breeds hate. It's just seems a lil watered down. So eventually... maybe. People try to get passed it, but the tendencies for slip ups, or just the uneasiness and intimidation of change.. it's still there.

It may take a long time.. but hopefully we'll get there.
 
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It's not special treatment at all. People of different races couldn't marry not too long ago in this country. I suppose you're going to tell me that interracial married couples get special treatment too. Come on.

How would you like it if you fell in love with someone and the government came in and said, "No, you cannot marry this person. You can't have the health benefits, the tax benefits, the death benefits like every other loving couple is entitled to." You can tell yourself you'd just go along with it, so be it, but when the person you love gets sick and you can't make the decisions to save her because you have no authority, or when she dies and you're left with nothing despite the life you built together because you have no claim on anything that belonged to her, then talk to me about "special treatment."

If your trying to raise the issue that race = sex, well.... you know the answer to that yourself, it does not. Sexual discrimination and racial discrimination are two very different things.

The fight gong on about gay marriage, if was simply about rights and what you are entitled to, then the fight would be over already. Most people wouldn't fight over "gay unions" or whatever you want to call it.

But it is not about that. Gay marriage proponents don't just want equal rights, they want to change what traditional marriage has ment to people who value traditional marriage.
 
I re-watched the Colbert clip and I liked what Dan Savage said. We just have to wait for all the old bigots to die off and then things will start to change.

Bigots come in all shapes and sizes.

A bigot is: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

If the idea of traditional marriage is not to be respected by a certain group of people, are they not guilty of bigotry as well?

There are certainly alot more people in the world who value the idea of traditional marriage then do not. For a compromise to happen one side will have to give up something for good things to happen. Unfortunately that is the side with less voices on it.

Eventually gay marriage or whatever version it takes will prevail. But wouldn't you want something, anything......... to happen sooner?

Being stubborn about being included in traditional marriage only makes the fight that much harder.
 
If your trying to raise the issue that race = sex, well.... you know the answer to that yourself, it does not. Sexual discrimination and racial discrimination are two very different things.

The fight gong on about gay marriage, if was simply about rights and what you are entitled to, then the fight would be over already. Most people wouldn't fight over "gay unions" or whatever you want to call it.

But it is not about that. Gay marriage proponents don't just want equal rights, they want to change what traditional marriage has ment to people who value traditional marriage.

You're kidding yourself. Race, like sex, is not something you choose. They are different only in the fact that one has to do with color and the other has to do with sexuality. Most people would and ARE fighting over gay unions - they are offended by the idea of gays having equal rights to married couples ie: health benefits, tax benefits, etc. These people aren't saying get a union, just don't get a religious marriage, they are saying no to the concept of gay people as a recognized couple.

You are pretty uninformed if you think that this is about wanting to change what marriage traditionally means to people. This isn't some crusade to change people's minds about gays. I think most gay folks couldn't give a fuck less about what people think about the institution of marriage or about homosexuality in general - all they want is to be able to be married to the person they love. And who the fuck is anyone to tell them they can't?
 
But it is not about that. Gay marriage proponents don't just want equal rights, they want to change what traditional marriage has ment to people who value traditional marriage.

I have to ask, but what exactly does traditional marriage mean to people who have married? Do you really care that your spouse is of the opposite sex, or are you proud you were able to have the ceremony and declare to your families that you want to be together like your parents before you?

If you want to keep the gays down because you view marriage solely as a union between a man and woman before God, I want to see you keep the divorces down because marriage, in a religious sense, is a lifetime commitment.
 
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Some stuff.


There is civil, and there is religious. Don't confuse the two. Gay marriage isn't asking for special treatment, just asking for the same civil rights as the rest of the population. It has never been about changing the fundamental basics of your mainstream faith, or even asking you to love and accept us. If you want to make it a religious argument, then anyone outside of any mainstream faith is not entitled to the same rights as people from "normal" christian/morman/catholic etc church. But then which religion is the right one that we should all follow? Which should we base all our civil laws on? This is why religion has no business in affairs of state. Especially since multiculturalism is so prominent in most societies.

There will always be bigots, some boys will always like boys, and some people will never have a clue. Doesn't change the fact that if my partner were to die, I have no more rights regarding his affairs than some bum on the other side of the country. It's left in the hands of the family that rejected him when he was 16 and havn't spoken to him since. Darkdante, could you please explain how asking for the same rights as a heterosexual married couple in the same instance is asking for special treatment?
 
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