Gay Marriage

[Celvantes]

Noted, but completely irrelevant to the discussion. Gay couples aren't lobbying for religious marriage. If that's all we wanted, we wouldn't be bothering with lawsuits. We could just jump a broom and say we're married. This is about civil marriage.

Actually, it is relevant, just not to the argument you made. Others have claimed that this is an example of the church unlawfully influencing the state in the application of what should be secular law. I'm showing that such a statement is incorrect in that the state law has nothing to do with religion; rather, it pertains only to the legal benefits of marriage granted by the state government, and by proxy, the federal government.

And I agree with you that this is how the process works. Same-sex marriage passed the legislature and was vetoed, although Schwarzenegger stepped aside and said he wouldn't interfere when the courts said gay couples had to be allowed equal access. So the process worked.

If the ballot initiative can be proven improper -- and the courts declined to rule on it until they were faced with actual passage -- that's also the process working. Of course, I'm sure there will be howls of "judicial activism" if that happens. When it comes to civil rights, sitting around and waiting for the majority to give you the rights you're due out of the goodness of its heart means you're going to be waiting for a long time.

And this spells out the danger of judicial review, and why constitutional amendments are vital to the democracy of this country.

The opinion of 9 old men and women should be AT THE MOST a stop-gap measure to ensure that justice is served until such a time as an agreeable and just law can be passed, or the constitution amended.

Let us assume for a moment, that a standard law or ballot initiative requires a minimum of a 51% majority (either legislative or general populace), and that a constitutional amendment requires 67%. I know this varies from state to state, but let's just use these numbers for the sake of argument.

Amendment trumps judicial review trumps law, meaning....

67% trumps 9 people trumps 51%.


The opinion of nine people should not rule the desires of the majority of the populace in all but the most dire of circumstances. The very execution of judicial review should highlight the need for much broader debate and resolution at the constitutional level.

Unfortunately, we have made it a habit in this country to sit back and allow these very decisions to run parts of our lives (abortion being the most notable) without confronting the underlying problems and issues, and fighting it out in the forums of public debate until we can reach a satisfactory conclusion. Public policy should be made in the open, and not by shifting seats on the courts, hoping that one day, one set of judges will overturn the decision of another set of judges.

Back to the topic at hand, the people of California had the intestinal fortitude to show a true majority and pass a constitutional amendment to override the court's decision. Until such a time as the opposing side can achieve their own amendment (meaning they have the support of two-thirds of the populace), the will of the people must be respected.

The day we become a judiciary democracy is the day I leave this country. Judges are there to interpret law, not to create it.

Celv, I highly doubt gay couples want to get married in order to achieve the same rights as normal couples (the rights you mentioned). If that was the case, they would be happy with a civil union, get almost the same benefits, and then go on with their lives without protest.

I'd think they want to get married to have equal rights as the rest of the population, and to be considered equals. If a black couple tried to get married, and the church wouldn't allow it, all hell would break lose. Not allowing gay couples to get married is the exact same thing, you're telling them they aren't equal, don't have the same rights, as everyone else.

Now, I can see not allowing muslims to get married in a church (not that they'd want to, anyway), as that is another religion, but why wouldn't you allow a Christian gay couple to get married? A lot of so-called Christians that don't even believe in God are allowed to get married, and that, if anything, is a big giant slap in God's face, much more so then allowing homosexuals to get married in a church.

This isn't a matter of separate-but-equal. The crux of this argument is the legal benefits of marriage vs civil union.

This also has nothing to do with being married in a church or a mosque or what have you. It also has nothing to do with what religion you are. Gays can get married in whatever religious institution they want to, at the moment. What is denied them is the legal status of marriage, which as I discussed before, is nothing more than a package of benefits given out by the state, and as such can be withheld under the state's own criteria.

States already withhold marriage benefits to other demographics. You can be denied marriage benefits based on age and consanguinity (cousin marriage). Polygamists also face the same restrictions.

Bottom line, the people of a given state have the right to decide who they give marriage benefits to. If they wanted to, they could remove *all* marriage benefits to everyone, and make it nothing more than a religious function that has no bearing on state business. If I were Ah-nold right now, I'd put forward a proposition suggesting exactly that, just to prove a point.

 

[Halifirien]

Saying that we believe in magic and that Mormons and the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians is insulting to Christians who actually read the Bible and think for themselves instead of taking for granted what some preacher tells us.

This is the part that intrigues me the most. You're so certain you're right and that they're not what they say they are, and yet Catholics and Protestants have been hurling the same statements about each other for centuries. Then toss in the Jews and Muslims for good measure. They can't all be right, can they?

Unless you're one of the more broadminded folk who says "Well, we're all on the same journey but taking different paths," in which case I really don't see why the same consideration shouldn't apply to Mormons.

Like I said, your hang-ups about Mormons are your hang-ups. I don't believe in gods, so I'm not going to argue about which religions are "right" when I think they're all equally wrong. You're insulted because I put Christians and Mormons in the same boat, but there's really nothing I can do about it.

You also made a comment that Christians were scared of gays having equal rights and that maybe it would lead to people shunning us. ... You probably didn't mean all Christians but just the ones that were spreading hate.

I would hope it was obvious I wasn't referring to all Christians when I explained why the ones opposed to gay rights act the way they do. I don't go around deducting intelligence points or assuming homophobia from people when I discover they believers.

As for magic, maybe in a way we do believe in magic but then again there is proof that some things happen for reasons that science can't explain.

And science also explains a lot more than most Christians I've known are willing to accept. This is why we end up with people arguing for creationism and Intelligent Design in science classrooms because they are unwilling (or unable) to wrap their minds around how an elegant billions-of-years dance of geology and natural selection can produce the same result they think must have happened at the hands of a deity.

When religious folk argue their mythology trumps things we know are true because of thousands of years of observation and experimentation, things we're still confirming and illuminating on a regular basis, it undermines their argument. If they can't get the Second Law of Thermodynamics correct -- and that gets mangled every time it up to supposedly poke holes in evolutionary theory -- why should anyone trust them to be correct about the supposed rules of eternal salvation?

If you're one of the enlightened folk who can perform the necessary mental gymnastics to reconcile your faith and science, I'm very happy for you and approve wholeheartedly. However, going into a defensive crouch and acting as though your beliefs are somehow above critical scrutiny simply because they're beliefs is the real insult.

 

[Tristam Green]

Did you just compare that to a religious book?

Actually, I didn't. Trippy asked if there was a book that encourages spreading Atheistic beliefs, as he put it "like a plague". Again, putting forth that I or any other Christian spreads our beliefs like a disease is really fucking insulting.

Here are a few reviews, stemming from "does this book encourage us to spread our belief?"

Dawkins's passionate disavowal of religion and his "I can no other answer make" statement that he is an atheist--and why you should be, too.

Dawkins is right to be not only angry but alarmed. Religions have the secular world running scared. This book is a clarion call to cower no longer. Primed by anger, redeemed by humour, it will, I trust, offend many.

Mr Dawkins dreams of a day when atheists are as well organised and influential as Christian conservatives have become. If nothing else, his book should help bring the atheists out of the closet.

But then, there are some additional reviews, my personal favorite being:

Richard Dawkins’s even-handedness is well-intentioned, but it is misplaced. I share his lack of respect for all religions, but in our times it is folly to disrespect them all equally.

So no, I did not liken it to the Bible. I likened it to "Chicken Soup for the Soul" and its fluffy ilk, if anything.

 

[Stine]

This is the part that intrigues me the most. You're so certain you're right and that they're not what they say they are, and yet Catholics and Protestants have been hurling the same statements about each other for centuries. Then toss in the Jews and Muslims for good measure. They can't all be right, can they?

Unless you're one of the more broadminded folk who says "Well, we're all on the same journey but taking different paths," in which case I really don't see why the same consideration shouldn't apply to Mormons.

Like I said, your hang-ups about Mormons are your hang-ups. I don't believe in gods, so I'm not going to argue about which religions are "right" when I think they're all equally wrong. You're insulted because I put Christians and Mormons in the same boat, but there's really nothing I can do about it.

Honestly it would take me writing a full book to explain why I believe what I do. I don't think that anyone really wants to read all of that but I can write a little. I do believe that all of the Abrahamic faiths could be traveling down the same path but just have different reasons for believing what they do. People don't have to justify to me why they believe what they do. I don't have to agree with them but I'm not going to hinder them on their own path of discovery. I am not God and I have no right to judge other people. That's why I believe in equal rights for everyone to choose how they want to live as long as it doesn't lead to killing and harming other people.

I would hope it was obvious I wasn't referring to all Christians when I explained why the ones opposed to gay rights act the way they do. I don't go around deducting intelligence points or assuming homophobia from people when I discover they believers.

I don't pretend to know your stance on everything. Some people hate for the simple reason of a title. It was just an example of how you might want to choose your words more carefully if trying to talk to a Christian.

And science also explains a lot more than most Christians I've known are willing to accept. This is why we end up with people arguing for creationism and Intelligent Design in science classrooms because they are unwilling (or unable) to wrap their minds around how an elegant billions-of-years dance of geology and natural selection can produce the same result they think must have happened at the hands of a deity.

When religious folk argue their mythology trumps things we know are true because of thousands of years of observation and experimentation, things we're still confirming and illuminating on a regular basis, it undermines their argument. If they can't get the Second Law of Thermodynamics correct -- and that gets mangled every time it up to supposedly poke holes in evolutionary theory -- why should anyone trust them to be correct about the supposed rules of eternal salvation?

If you're one of the enlightened folk who can perform the necessary mental gymnastics to reconcile your faith and science, I'm very happy for you and approve wholeheartedly. However, going into a defensive crouch and acting as though your beliefs are somehow above critical scrutiny simply because they're beliefs is the real insult.

I personally question my faith alot. I don't think that I can truly believe something if I don't look at it at all sides. I wasn't saying that my faith shouldn't be questioned. I was saying if you wanted to encourage Christians to believe in gay rights that you should word what you mean a little better. I am sorry if I sounded holier than thou. It was not my intention. I want to promote everyone to educate themselves about the issues and make good decisions about equal rights for everyone.

 

[Halifirien]

67% trumps 9 people trumps 51%. ... The opinion of nine people should not rule the desires of the majority of the populace in all but the most dire of circumstances. The very execution of judicial review should highlight the need for much broader debate and resolution at the constitutional level.

So by your reasoning, if 67% of the people voted tomorrow that interracial marriages in California shouldn't be recognized from that day forward, you'd think that was proper? The national opposition was a lot higher than 67% when those bans were struck down, but I'm hard-pressed to name anyone now who would argue the court did the wrong thing.

Respecting the majority's opinion is easy to do when you're a member of the majority. When you're in the minority, it's a very different picture.

 

[Tristam Green]

Respecting the majority's opinion is easy to do when you're a member of the majority. When you're in the minority, it's a very different picture.

I agree here. My civics teacher in High School (I wasn't much one for PolSci in college, I had a disbarred lawyer as a professor) once told me that the bottom line for democracy is "majority rule, but respect for minority rights."

There wasn't much respect given even in the creation of Proposition 8.

 

[Urat]

Here's how I see it.

Being married is mostly abhrahamic, and most abrahamics believe being gay is a sin. I think that is completely retarded, but they are intitled to their beliefs, as ridiculous as it is.

Thus, giving gays the right to be married would go com0pletely against the religion it supports. To them a gay being marrie dis sinning, thus us making it legal would, yes, give them equal rights, but in the same move break another important rule, freedom of religion.

In other words, marriage is abhrahamic, as is anti gay, so really, why the hell would anyone who is gay actually wnat to get marrie,d cause in a roundabout way your supporting the anti gay thesis of that very religion.

Personally, do you really need to get married under the religious vows? If God in the bible claims the act of homosexuality is completely sacriligious, whyt eh fuck would you want to pledge your neverending love to your significant other under his name, when the significant other is the same gender?

Completely backwards, you hate them for discriminating against you, but you want to partake in their ultimate right of passage too? One or the other people, if you want to peldge your lvoe that dman bad, make your own version, that is identical in every way you want it to be, minus the pledging yourself to their god.

Thats what I'd do, call it the pledge, isntead of marriage, or whatever you want, the government could in no way not allow it, without ascenting the other way, sicne be declaiming your right to freedom of religion, they would have to lift the anti gay marriage at the same time, check and mate.

For the tl;dr people, abrahamic religion is anti gay, so by pledging yourself through homosexual marriage you'd be pledging yourself to an anti gay god, which I find silly, and is the main reason for the anti gay marriage. I wouldn't call it discrimination, but freedom of their religion, they don't want any part of you in their religion, and no amount fo whining and complaining will get you it.

 

[Tristam Green]

For the tl;dr people, abrahamic religion is anti gay, so by pledging yourself through homosexual marriage you'd be pledging yourself to an anti gay god, which I find silly, and is the main reason for the anti gay marriage. I wouldn't call it discrimination, but freedom of their religion, they don't want any part of you in their religion, and no amount fo whining and complaining will get you it.

You need to really read what's going on before attempting to sum-up what's being said.

Nobody is saying they want to partake in a religious ceremony. They want LEGAL RECOGNITION OF THEIR CIVIL UNION IN ACCORDANCE WITH STATE LAWS.

I don't have a problem with it either way. If a gay man wants to get married in a church, in a barn, at the justice of the peace, on the beach or while skydiving, it matters little to me. They are entitled to the same exact treatment legally as any other citizen of the United States.

They're being denied certain unalienable rights, namely "the pursuit of happiness", and it's wrong.

 

[Mirewen]

Christians don't believe people should have the right to be gay. They believe in gay people, they just think they are all going to hell.

Don't generalize please. I never said people don't have a right to be gay, I don't believe Stine did either.

 

[Trippyhippy]

I think MANY IF NOT ALL[/SIZE] QCDN Christians would disagree with you about this, and isn't that the context you really ought to be looking at here? Considering you have dealings with us on a daily basis, deal with the ones in Tennessee how you deem fit, but deal with us differently, because we aren't the ones throwing sand in your eye.

That is because like many other christians, many qcdn christians only pick beliefs convienent to the way of life to which they have grown accustomed. It is overtly obvious that no christian on qcdn does that in any shape form or fashion, otherwise they wouldn't play Final Fantasy. If you want to disagree with me that's fine, I'll just quote verses from the book you claim to live your life by untill you get tired of arguing.

You just see them on the television alongside the purported "powerhouses of the Christian faith". Bill Maher ranks right alongside Robert Tilton.

The only problem with that is that Bill Maher isn't an Atheist, he's agnostic. Even if he was, he is a political satirist. He makes fun of politics for a living. If religious people could keep their ideas about god out of politics, it wouldn't be a problem.

Charleston Atheist-Humanist Society

Sure you don't.

That site hasn't been updated since 2003.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/76/The_God_Delusion_UK.jpg[IMG]

Sure you don't.[/QUOTE]

You'll have to find the verse that tells atheists they are going to be tortured eternaly for not spreading the word of atheism. After you produce that, then I can stop laughing at you and we can have a discussion about me being wrong.

 

[Mirewen]

Yes, and he believes that people who believe in god are the same as people who believe in magic.

Wasn't my point Tyrath...

 

[Tristam Green]

That site hasn't been updated since 2003.

I can assure you his beliefs didn't stop in 2003. I know the guy personally, and he's a lazy shithead.

Now, do I say that atheists as a whole are lazy shitheads, simply because I know one who happens to be one?

I don't think so.

HOLY SHIT I SEE WHAT I DID THERE.

You'll have to find the verse that tells atheists they are going to be tortured eternaly for not spreading the word of atheism. After you produce that, then I can stop laughing at you and we can have a discussion about me being wrong.

Laugh all you want, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not looking for your approval, I'm not looking for your acceptance, just as you aren't looking for mine.

 

[Trippyhippy]

One had exactly the same wording and the other didn't. Yes that is more believable to me. I don't question why you don't believe it because it is your right to believe or not.

Indeed it is, just as long as I am not believing it's ok for gay people to get married. Or as long as I don't think it's ok to disagree with your beleifs for which you have 0 proof.

I didn't say that it was a choice to be homosexual.

But you compared being persecuted for being gay to being persecuted for being christian. Being Christian is your choice so it is not comprable.

If they want to call themselves Christian then they can. I don't have to agree with it. I also don't go up to them and tell them that they are an idiot.

No, you tell me they are an idiot and spread hate by saying they are false christians. That is all religion is about these days, intolerance and hate.

So if I believe that I shouldn't murder someone that's harming someone else? Not all Christians and Muslims believe everyone deserves to die for believing different than them. I am for gay rights so how is me being a Christian harming them?

I hate to be the one that has to tell you this, but you being for gay rights is you being unchristian. It's kinda like calling Joe Liberman a Democrat. You are a christian in name only. I'd just quit using the word if I were you and call myself religious. That way you don't have to associate yourself with the people who actually believe every word of the bible is true.

No it isn't misleading. If someone has not seen God in their life, they're not going to believe in them. Some Christians who have not had feelings for people of their same gender so they might not believe in being gay. It just means that they are uneducated about homosexuality. There are gay Christians too. I personally don't think someone is going to hell because they are gay.

The bible says god will never proove his existance. You must have faith. If you have seen god, that removes the requirement of faith.

What I am saying though is that you are using the word "Believe" wrong. Christians most certainly believe in gay people. They are just scared of them and hate them as the bible instructs.

As I have mentioned time and time again, It means as an educated Christian that I understand that the Bible was written by man and is man's interpretation of God's teachings. I know that I should educate myself with secular and nonsecular writings so that I can know what is right. I don't have all the answers. No one does.

The bible teaches us that you are going to hell for saying that.

You don't see every religious person going out trying to force their beliefs on others. The extremist do.

You know the bible says that it is part of your christian duty to force your beliefs on others. They call it witnessing. People around here do it door to door. Then there is the thing with religious groups lobbying to make laws. That is definatly and without question forcing your beliefs on others.

I am tired of ignorance stealing the rights of it's citizens as well. I am also tired of the ignorance about people who are religious so I posted my feelings. Not all of us want to crucify people for being who they are. Again, there are gay Christians.

It's only a title. The bible tells us what a christian is and what a christian should be. It's a title people like to claim but no one likes to live by it.

Yes I do respect that. I'm not calling you stupid for your beliefs. I ask kindly for the same respect.

I'm not calling you stupid at all. If I was calling you anything, it would be hypocritical because you call yourself a christian yet you have many beliefs that don't conform to the title.

I can't. I know that I can't. I also know that spreading hate by calling religious people who are undecided on the issue is not going to convince them to support gay rights. You could have all the facts in the world but as soon as you say, "Religious people are idiots for believing in a magical ghost," you lost their vote. You possibly angered them enough to vote against it.

You have had enough arguements with me by now that you should know I don't call poeple names.

First off, I applaud you voting despite your choices not winning. Obama got more votes in South Carolina than I thought possible. No he didn't get our electoral votes either. Does that mean that you shouldn't try? No. There might have been more people in both of our states who would have voted for Obama if they thought their vote counted. The voter turnout in SC was 75% with Obama losing with less than 200,000 votes. Almost 600,000 people didn't vote in SC. What does that say to me? That if not even half of those people voted for Obama then he would have won the state. I might just be optimistic but that says to me that if more people thought that their vote counted, then it would have made a difference.

Some one stated that there was a decent amount of the gay community in California who were not registered to vote. To me that says that if more of them were registered they could have protected their right to get married. I would think that vote would have been enough to stand in line and vote even if they didn't vote for anything else on the ballot.

If you don't read anything else in my post, read this.
The reason that I posted was I am totally mystified as to why someone would start bashing religious people in this thread and not just the extremists who were pushing people to vote against gay marriage when every person who said they were religious in this tread said that they supported gay marriage. The person who started this tread is religious and believes in gay rights. The extremist scared people into voting by doing a campaign that basically said, "Think of the children." To an educated Christian, we know that marriage is touched lightly if at all at school. Yeah a school might teach about the fact that it was passed into law but not all Christians shield their children from the whole world. Yes we're probably a minority. If you wanted to sway an undecided religious person, the best way would be to educate them about how gay people are not trying to force their kids to see their relationships and to be gay. As stated before, you could have all the facts in the world to show why a person should support gay rights but telling a religious person, "You're stupid for believing in a magical ghost," would more than likely turn an undecided religious person against gay rights. Hardly anyone is going to be sympathic to someone's beliefs or want to listen to what they have to say if they constantly call them an idiot. I am not asking you to believe in God. I am not even asking you to praise people for their beliefs. Just don't ask them to respect your rights if you won't respect theirs.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunatly, I have to go back to work now. I'll respond to this last paragraph after I get off.

 

[Mirewen]

The reason that I posted was I am totally mystified as to why someone would start bashing religious people in this thread and not just the extremists who were pushing people to vote against gay marriage when every person who said they were religious in this tread said that they supported gay marriage. The person who started this tread is religious and believes in gay rights. The extremist scared people into voting by doing a campaign that basically said, "Think of the children." To an educated Christian, we know that marriage is touched lightly if at all at school. Yeah a school might teach about the fact that it was passed into law but not all Christians shield their children from the whole world. Yes we're probably a minority. If you wanted to sway an undecided religious person, the best way would be to educate them about how gay people are not trying to force their kids to see their relationships and to be gay. As stated before, you could have all the facts in the world to show why a person should support gay rights but telling a religious person, "You're stupid for believing in a magical ghost," would more than likely turn an undecided religious person against gay rights. Hardly anyone is going to be sympathic to someone's beliefs or want to listen to what they have to say if they constantly call them an idiot. I am not asking you to believe in God. I am not even asking you to praise people for their beliefs. Just don't ask them to respect your rights if you won't respect theirs.

This made the most sense.

 

[Halifirien]

To them a gay being married is sinning, thus us making it legal would, yes, give them equal rights, but in the same move break another important rule, freedom of religion.

How does that violate freedom of religion? Allowing gay people to marry each other doesn't rewrite religion and suddenly require preachers to start preaching love and acceptance of gay relationships. I realize there's an entertainingly paranoid strain of Christianist nonsense who thinks same-sex marriage is a slippery slope toward locking up preachers for saying "the gays" are going to hell, but that's extremely unlikely in a country that reveres freedom of speech the way we do.

Further, Christianity is not automatically anti-gay. There are plenty of churches out there who are perfectly accepting of gay people. Read The Good Book, by Peter J. Gomes, who made a pretty strong argument that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not even related to homosexuality, despite it being used as a prime example of God's wrath against gay people.

There is enough variety in religion to be gay and Christian. I may be dismissive of religion, but even I can't get behind the idea that the two states are mutually exclusive.

 

[Amerie]

Did you just compare that to a religious book?

Seriously?

Wow. I have to ask. Do you really believe atheists look to this book for guidance?

Just to add, there are publications about all kinds of beliefs around the world. But that doesn't mean this book is the atheist equivalent of the bible, qur'an, etc.

This is another issue we seem to have with this religious related content. As I said before, I am a Baptist Christian. However, Unlike a lot of Christians I don't necessarily think homosexuals are "going to hell", but a lot of other Christians do. This isn't necessarily true either. Christians shouldn't pretend to know everything about about an atheists' just as much as atheists' shouldn't pretend to know everything about Christian's. Using that book in your post was full of fail Trist.

Homosexuals do not goto Hell. Sinners do.

Some people chose their religion over "being human". I think that there was a time when it seemed like people would consider their religion above all else, and in a lot of cases it hurt us a society of HUMAN BEINGS from growing socially.

If you read the bible (I have read the king james version from Front to Back) you will clearly see that it explains, all humans are sinners. Not just homosexuals. A straight couple having sex unwed is a sin and almost every one of us on this very forum has had premarital sex or will at some point. Lying is a sin, Stealing is a sin. A lot of things we do in our daily lives is considered a sin according to the Bible.

In this day and time, where it seems that if we don't do something with ourselves as human beings, we will end up destroying ourselves and our planet. This is the very reason in this day and time it is more important to grow and accept the way things are and try to do what is best, not just as a community but as a society as well.

Christ died so we as humans could be forgiven for our sins. Humans will always sin. No one is perfect. You are sinner. I am a sinner. Your children are also sinners. Gay or not, Male or female. In the end when it comes to God, in my opinion, it won't matter what your sexual orientation is if you are already a sinner. It is the acknowledgment of the sins you have committed that will apparently save your soul and allow you into heaven. So to make it more clear, I believe God doesn't judge people specifically on the sins they have committed but the mere fact you have sinned at all. No sin is worse than another. I don't believe God will look at a homosexual any different than he would a Murderer, an Adulterer or a liar. If we are going to deny homosexuals such said civil rights based on religion (sins, angering god etc)then anyone else who commits sins should be denied such said privileges as well. Sound ridiculous right? Bet your ass it does.

In my experience (I have a lot of gay friends) I think gays in general are more human and loving than most straight people. We as a society, and as human beings have no right to judge them. By not allowing them the same civil rights as the rest of us is saying they aren't equal to us. Let's ask ourselves why that is, Because they are sleeping with the same-sex? That must anger the lord right? No more than you sleeping around unwed or committing any of the other sins. By acknowledging no sin is worse than another you are also acknowledging homosexuals are no better or worse than heterosexuals. So don't you dare use religion or God as an excuse for treating people unfairly. You shame yourself.

I Value being human just as much as I value being a Christian. Christ loves all his children and he doesn't expect us to to be perfect. He expects us to be honest with ourselves and try to redeem ourselves for our mistakes in life. I love life and I love God. I want to goto heaven when I die but at this time when humanity as a whole seems hopeless with all the disasters and ugliness around the world, its just crazy. The best thing to do right now as a human being, not just a Christian, is try to grow and accept things.


I believe Christians who are going out of their way to keep homosexuals from having civil unions are either preaching hatred or just preaching inequality. None of these are traits of a true Christian or Christ himself. Christ is a loving God. So preach love in his name rather than inequality.

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:37


Stay Blessed.

Ame

 

[Kohra]

The reason that I posted was I am totally mystified as to why someone would start bashing religious people in this thread and not just the extremists who were pushing people to vote against gay marriage when every person who said they were religious in this tread said that they supported gay marriage. The person who started this tread is religious and believes in gay rights. The extremist scared people into voting by doing a campaign that basically said, "Think of the children." To an educated Christian, we know that marriage is touched lightly if at all at school. Yeah a school might teach about the fact that it was passed into law but not all Christians shield their children from the whole world. Yes we're probably a minority. If you wanted to sway an undecided religious person, the best way would be to educate them about how gay people are not trying to force their kids to see their relationships and to be gay. As stated before, you could have all the facts in the world to show why a person should support gay rights but telling a religious person, "You're stupid for believing in a magical ghost," would more than likely turn an undecided religious person against gay rights. Hardly anyone is going to be sympathic to someone's beliefs or want to listen to what they have to say if they constantly call them an idiot. I am not asking you to believe in God. I am not even asking you to praise people for their beliefs. Just don't ask them to respect your rights if you won't respect theirs.

I'd have to agree with Stine and everyone else arguing about the fact that a lot of people are stereotyping all Christians as extremists, ignorant people that want to suppress peoples rights. I am not a Christian, i'm agnostic. I do believe there is a god, or gods, but i do not subscribe to any manmade religions (which is all religions in my eyes). I know what's right and wrong because i have morality.

In regards to extremists, zealots fanatics, etc, of any group or idea, you will run into the same type of tactics that the lobbiers for Prop 8 used. Why? Because they are fanatical about it. they believe in an idea so strongly they only use pieces of the truth, or invent "truths", to support thier ideas. This is not just true of christians, it's also true of any group. Religious people, non-religious people, animal rights activists, gay activist, ANY type of activist you can think of becomes blind when they go to the extreme. But to look at extremists and say everyone from X group is like that is just as blind. you have to judge every person AS AN INDIVIDUAL, not as a stereotype. Judging people based on a stereotype is what leads to hatred and labels of this kind in the first place.

Anyone pushing ideas of equality should stop for a moment and think to themselves: "Am i guilty of stereotyping in the same manner as the people trying to suppress me?"

You've all heard it a millions times, in as many different phrases. People are free to believe whatever they want. However i would hope they are also respectful of everyone else's beliefs.

 

[Stine]

Long post

Most of my replies in this thread and others that I have posted in the past to you explain everything that you have addressed here. I don't call people names either. Also the following from Hali expresses my feeling about gay and Christian.

Further, Christianity is not automatically anti-gay. There are plenty of churches out there who are perfectly accepting of gay people. Read The Good Book, by Peter J. Gomes, who made a pretty strong argument that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not even related to homosexuality, despite it being used as a prime example of God's wrath against gay people.

There is enough variety in religion to be gay and Christian. I may be dismissive of religion, but even I can't get behind the idea that the two states are mutually exclusive.

(Still at Trippyhippy)You can tell me that I am only Christian in title but it doesn't make it true. As I have said, I don't have all of the answers and I am not perfect. Learning about the Bible and why and how it was written helps to understand it. I am of the belief from the quote that Amerie posted (although I disagree with her statement about my husband's intelligence).

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:37

Good luck to the gay community on getting their rights. I will not be posting anymore to the further derailment of this tread. This issue is too important.

 

[Zyndara]

Not everyone believes in Christ, or in any religion even. That's the whole point. It doesn't make them stupid and it doesn't make them have any less rights as a human being. People should not be held to your or anyone else's religious beliefs; especially not in a legal context. Period.

 

[Halifirien]

You can tell me that I am only Christian in title but it doesn't make it true.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there, hoss. I never said that. Trippy said it, and disagreed with him in my last post.