George Bush's Legacy

I would greatly disagree with this. I take it personally when I feel the people leading this country should be in jail. I dunno how I can consider them great people and patriots after the things our recent leadership has done. Especially the propaganda that has been spread from this war that you are not a patriot if you do not blindly support it. I'm not some conspiracy theory guy, but even with a fairly unbiased and educated view point I cannot believe certain people aren't being punished.

"That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

-Theodore Roosevelt

You don't have to support anyone, believe in anyone or blindly follow anyone, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the negative climate of American politics, where everyone fucking hates everybody from the rival party or cause. Before you start screaming "criminal" you have to stand back and stop looking at it from such a bias lens. For example, some people on the far right might make the case that the supreme court that overturned Roe vs Wade are "murderers," as they see the individuals as responsible and accountable legally for these decisions they were appointed to make.

When the argument turns away from trying to explain why your position is wrong, to an attack on the person themself, for believing something different from you, then the discussion is over. Not only do you have nothing of value to ask the politician you hate, but no one with a dissenting opinion is going to want to talk to you, because you've let loose the fact that you would hate them as well if they were the one to make the decision.

That to me is the lowest level of politics, and what's funny is people like that think they're so sophisticated, because they think it's an improvement from the vast amount of people who don't even vote, and when questioned on their beliefs, state they don't know or care. I'd rather talk to one of those people, at least they might say something interesting, instead of shout slogans at me or other drivel i don't care about.

Let me tell you something else, this whole war crime thing is nothing new. It was another Roosevelt who was called a war monger, and one I could make a case committed what makes Guantanamo bay look very tiny in comparison.

Oh my god... Do you know anything about European politics or do you just make it up as you go along?

Oh, I'm sorry, "socialist."
 
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You don't have to support anyone, believe in anyone or blindly follow anyone, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the negative climate of American politics, where everyone fucking hates everybody from the rival party or cause.

Saying Bush was an awful president, disagreeing with his policies, making fun of his inability to speak in public... No one here is saying that applies to everyone from "the rival party or cause". We are targeted on Bush. Now if you can't accept the fact that there are people whose lives were made more difficult by some of his presidential decisions, and that there are people that have plenty of reasons to dislike him aside from his public speaking slip ups, I see that as you doing exactly what you are saying you hate watching people do.

When the argument turns away from trying to explain why your position is wrong, to an attack on the person themself, for believing something different from you, then the discussion is over. Not only do you have nothing of value to ask the politician you hate, but no one with a dissenting opinion is going to want to talk to you, because you've let loose the fact that you would hate them as well if they were the one to make the decision.

This coming from the person who called the OP a 5 year old in his first post.

That to me is the lowest level of politics, and what's funny is people like that think they're so sophisticated, because they think it's an improvement from the vast amount of people who don't even vote, and when questioned on their beliefs, state they don't know or care. I'd rather talk to one of those people, at least they might say something interesting, instead of shout slogans at me or other drivel i don't care about.

When the argument turns away from trying to explain why your position is wrong, to an attack on the person them self, for believing something different from you, then the discussion is over.

>.>

Let me tell you something else, this whole war crime thing is nothing new. It was another Roosevelt who was called a war monger, and one I could make a case committed what makes Guantanamo bay look very tiny in comparison.

Do you have to go back 70 years to find that comparison? Back to a 4 term president? I can go back to Bush Sr. to show you someone that had a war in the exact same area of the world without committing war crimes (or at least not letting them surface)

Oh, I'm sorry, "socialist."

It's funny you say that because the person he defeated in the election was Socialist Party candidate Ségolène Royal.
 
I'm talking about the negative climate of American politics, where everyone fucking hates everybody from the rival party or cause. Before you start screaming "criminal" you have to stand back and stop looking at it from such a bias lens.

I don’t hate people automatically because they are from a rival party. I also wouldn’t disrespect the entire Republican Party by calling Bush and Co. real republicans. However, I do hate lying, arrogant little fucks who throw their weight around like they’re entitled. I will scream criminal if the shoe fits, regardless of political party. George Bush is, as Hunter S. Thompson once called Nixon, “A criminal and a thug.”

A sampling of what Zyn aptly described as “a nightmare embarrassment of a presidency” includes: Ignoring numerous warnings that Bin Laden was gunning for U.S., pressuring the EPA to downplay toxic air risks at ground zero, using non-existent WMDs and inventing connections between Saddam and Al Qaeda to justify a war, the Katrina debacle, refusing to sign Kyoto protocol, ordering the Justice Department to drop lawsuits against polluting power plants (an industry that has donated millions to his campaign), attempting to cover-up CIA torture in prisons, taking more vacation time than any other president. That last one would be rather minor except we are at war.

So yeah, there's a reason for the negativity.
 
Saying Bush was an awful president, disagreeing with his policies, making fun of his inability to speak in public... No one here is saying that applies to everyone from "the rival party or cause". We are targeted on Bush. Now if you can't accept the fact that there are people whose lives were made more difficult by some of his presidential decisions, and that there are people that have plenty of reasons to dislike him aside from his public speaking slip ups, I see that as you doing exactly what you are saying you hate watching people do.

American politics since the Clinton and Dole election has massively degenerated into a state of sound bites, and bullshit low blows that have nothing to do with the issues. This is just the truth of the matter. It's not just Bush and it's not just Republicans. People on both sides do it but depending on what part of the country you're in, members of the dominant party will do it more openly.

I can accept that some people dislike Bush and his policies, and see their lives and the country as worse off than 8 years ago. I however lament the general political atmosphere and its domination by the immature over the thoughtful.

People don't debate issues anymore. They don't discuss the underlying philosophies behind their ideologies. We all just assume, that every belief we hold is the only belief that's morally justified, and everyone else can go fuck themselves silly. Politics then becomes about smearing the other guy. If that's making fun of Bush's slip ups or Clinton's lust for interns - it's not about the issues. Hell, people don't even bring up the issues when the discussion could make a difference. It's all after the fact analysis, so the people not making the decisions can wait around until it's done, adopt a position based on the results and say "I told you so." Even then they don't debate, they poke jabs. Even in debates, people don't debate. They speak to the camera, not their opponent - and nobody seems to notice anymore.

You see for me I think that important decisions can't be emotional, they must be entirely intellectual. When there's an issue, people should debate the reasonings, counter each other's, ext. We shouldn't be talking about horseshit. It used to be a tertiary thing, going on in the background by the people who didn't even know what was really going on and were just blindly loyal to their parent's party. Now it's the main event.

This coming from the person who called the OP a 5 year old in his first post.

He probably is. The guy drops a stupid OP, gets called out, struggles a little bit and when he's backed into a corner tries to retroactively change his position.

When the argument turns away from trying to explain why your position is wrong, to an attack on the person them self, for believing something different from you, then the discussion is over.

>.>

Should say "why your position is right". I'm talking about how the poisonous political atmosphere that I've been describing is a sort of cycle. Once something reaches this immature hog wash level of back and forth, nothing of relevance can be added. This means that it's not that there aren't valuable things to be said, rather the intense, emotional negativity usurps that. It's not a two way street, it never goes back towards a positive engagement - rather people get disgusted or bored and leave.

Do you have to go back 70 years to find that comparison? Back to a 4 term president? I can go back to Bush Sr. to show you someone that had a war in the exact same area of the world without committing war crimes (or at least not letting them surface)

George W Bush ran the invasion just as well if not better than his father did, but Bush Sr didn't unpack the tents and stick around after wards. Same area, but different reasons and different objectives. At this point it's merely a question of, if you see any potential long term benefits, maybe 20 years down the road for US interests with present state Iraq versus Saddam ran Iraq. It's something we won't know until we see the prevailing attitudes of Iraq citizens born after the fall of Saddam.

It's funny you say that because the person he defeated in the election was Socialist Party candidate Ségolène Royal.

Well few countries are like the US, with 2 parties dominating and elections being all or nothing. Few countries are also like France, where the economy is meticulously regulated to have everything run as inefficiently as possible.
 
People don't debate issues anymore. They don't discuss the underlying philosophies behind their ideologies. We all just assume, that every belief we hold is the only belief that's morally justified, and everyone else can go fuck themselves silly.

Clearly, you don't read a lot of blogs. There's plenty of debate and discussion going on if you seek it out. I'm sure you'll dismiss the idea on the grounds that they're all ideologically biased or something, but they're out there and there are more than a handful where one side is willing to assume the other side is arguing in good faith.

But I have to disagree when you say big decisions should be entirely intellectual and not emotional. Mr. Spock is a hell of a science officer, but I don't want him running the country, y'know? You need a mix.
 
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I don't have a problem with Sarkozy(well I do actually but I'm not getting into that now), I'm talking about the influence and overall power of the socialist party in France, which is alarmingly high. Also note, the conservative party in France is not farther to the right than the democrat party in the US. It's all relative to the center.

And blogs are not conduits of discussion, they are soap boxes, it's one way.
 
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And blogs are not conduits of discussion, they are soap boxes, it's one way.

What blogs do you read?

Many of them have lively comments sections and forums where the discussion continues after the initial post has been made. Even in cases where there are no comments, they're still adding to the discussion by picking apart or reinforcing arguments made in other venues.

The discussion also occurs between blogs. Blog A posts something and Blog B responds, with a handful of others adding to it. It may lack the compact neatness of a of one-on-one back-and-forth at a podium, but the debate is most certainly there. Don't dismiss them out of hand.
 
If this was such a stupid thread why are you so actively posting. I didn't back peddle in my beliefs. Do I dislike bush's presidency? Yes. I have my reasons whether they are fully formed and accurate or not. However you clearly could not comprehend that this thread had nothing to do with liking him or not, agreeing with him or not, etc. So quit bitching and being hypocritical and shut up.

I wasn't trying to put my views in this thread, just simply post something I got a kick out of and u got offended. Had tom cruise said these thinga instead I'd post that too. I doubt you would be crying over that.
 
What blogs do you read?

Many of them have lively comments sections and forums where the discussion continues after the initial post has been made. Even in cases where there are no comments, they're still adding to the discussion by picking apart or reinforcing arguments made in other venues.

The discussion also occurs between blogs. Blog A posts something and Blog B responds, with a handful of others adding to it. It may lack the compact neatness of a of one-on-one back-and-forth at a podium, but the debate is most certainly there. Don't dismiss them out of hand.

Yes I have followed some blogs sporatically, though honestly there are none I go back to consistantly. I can't speak for all of them as I obviously have not read all of them, I can only talk about what I have viewed.

The basic structure starts with an event, rarely is it derived from the author completely, just pondering on an issue and bringing it up. It'll start by quoting something they disagree with, or a news report they want to give their 2 cents on, or another blog, most likely, someone of the opposite view.

The last two are all well and fine, but it's not an argument in and of itself, though it can be morphed to it through the comment section, which I'll get to later. In the case of a news report, if it's something important and controversial, their opinion can be easily compared to many others that'll be out there. If it's just something the author brings out of the blue, which to me is more interesting, it's usually something of their own perspective, though it's rarely anything new added and they rarely put anything out that someone with 15 minutes of pondering and responding couldn't tear through.

In the case of a response type blog, the responses rarely actually counter the original. They simply deconstruct it, and then mock it, without ever citing exact reasons.

Then you get the comment sections. Here's the facts:

All these blogs are allied to some political philosophy. There's no neutral battlegrounds. Those who agree with the general views of the author, the steady readers, agree with what they say, and generally as an attitude view themselves as the people who "have the right to be there," and view dissenting opinions as trolls who should go piss off. It's not entirely unfounded, as often those people are in fact trolls, who don't put forth any real counter argument, but rather, are SO confident in their own right-ness that they'll just post something immature. Which is countered by equally immature responses.

So in general, I find the scene unsatisfying. I'll continue this line of thought as a response to the next post.

Why is that alarming?

Socialism is an ideal I don't altogether disagree with on a philosophical level, but with the current realities of humanity's situation relative to planet Earth, it's simply undoable. It's something to think about in the future, if we can achieve a state without severe limits to natural resources, land and a need for a labor force to actually sustain humanity. The problem being that once we reach a state of equilibrium, in "good times" we have huge population growths, until we hit the point yet again that capitalism, survival of the fittest is required. To me socialism is putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalalala" trying to ignore basic reality in hopes that an idealistic world will build itself.

Specifically, what conduit of discussion do you approve of?

If you ever read the older public debates, before the change of the century, they have much more substance. I would like to see something like that, where everything isn't dominated by network constraints, and the candidates engage each other, instead of read prepared remarks to the camera. If you're asking about on this, public level, like on the internet, I've found the only interesting debates I ever found myself were in message boards that had nothing to do with politics - as the ones that do, always have an agenda prior, and consider anyone not following that agenda, by definition, someone who doesn't belong there.

I have no interest engaging in any debates where it's everyone versus me, but even worse, to have everyone on my side against a single person.
 
Socialism is an ideal I don't altogether disagree with on a philosophical level, but with the current realities of humanity's situation relative to planet Earth, it's simply undoable. It's something to think about in the future, if we can achieve a state without severe limits to natural resources, land and a need for a labor force to actually sustain humanity. The problem being that once we reach a state of equilibrium, in "good times" we have huge population growths, until we hit the point yet again that capitalism, survival of the fittest is required. To me socialism is putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalalala" trying to ignore basic reality in hopes that an idealistic world will build itself.

You talk about blogs being one sided, whats the other possibility to socialism? How about an organized concerted effort to assess, predict, and coordinate response to natural limits? Capitalism could be cast in a barbaric glow, yet you pedestalize it here. Capitalism, the great equalizer... yet like communism can never exist entirely of itself efficiently. (look at stock market rules and regulations, anti-trust legislation, treasury legislation and monetary circulation, world markets, varied world market systems -- certainly we have to coordinate across different market structures)

I'm not a huge fan of socialism. It does have its benefits, especially in that it expects more of society in general than does the capitalist counterpart. Capitalism relies on the environment acting on the individual as opposed to the individual creating the environment. Capitalism has one claim to fame: there is no bias.

This is an enormous, enormous debate that I do not really feel like laying out defense, after defense to Socialism for the sake of debate. However, you say socialism inevitably fails, so does capitalism under globalization. The easy answers to political ideology are disappearing as world prosperity grows. Certain levels of "socialism" will be necessitated as economies merge, grow, acquire. That, in the spirit of your post is unavoidable.
 
And just to clarify:
I have heard the argument that socialism has corrupted capitalism. Socialist laws have been applied to the markets therefore we dont truly have "capitalism."

Could the stock market exist free of legislation?
How about Patents? Copyrights? etc... (Think pharmaceuticals, do profit guarantees drive innovation? would capitalism do the same under free markets?) Maybe... who knows?

Capitalism works when goods are freely available, meaning widely accepted 'currency.' Widely accepted currency also means there is currency in circulation for the masses, meaning banks are working. Capitalism relies on the fundamental trust that the market is absolute when it is in fact not, (recessions and depressions).

Etc. etc. etc. long long long long debate lol
 
I'm not arguing for a pure capitalist society either nor do I think what we live in is that. If you go too far to either side you run into traps. Either your society breaks down because it's ran so inefficiently, or your controls are so weak that single organizations can achieve too much power and run out all the competition. I didn't feel the need to elaborate my position, not out of belief that it would be "one sided" but because I didn't view the debate for/against socialism as a particularly fruitful one. People rarely want to defend it when pressed hard, they simply want to acknowledge it on some gesture-type level, as to say that those who follow it are misguided but get certain things right - which I can say for just about any position.
 
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