Go Bush!

Now, see, Japanese people are all from Japan. They have their own culture, not the same as every other Asian. I'd consider it not a dishonor, but the crushing of my future to fail High School, or college, and I'm sure more than 60% of anyone from any Latin American country would agree with me. Do you think people like having shit-can jobs? Do you think people like cleaning after assholes that think they're better than them just because they had a better education?

You know something, though? What drives most people to have those kinds of jobs is to support their families, what a lot of "white" people don't do.
 
What drives most people to have those kinds of jobs is to support their families, what a lot of "white" people don't do.
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*Jumps up and down pointing* Generalization! Racism!

Oh wait, that's not my line. :roll:
 
Rones said:
Ok, you are all so great at whing and criticizing my view as to what caused that statistics. Yet, I fail to see anyone suggesting another view (beyond Bush is the lord of evil and everything is his fault :roll: ). If my view is so wrong, then what is the right cause?

Calling something stupid and respecting it are mutually exlusive descriptions. You disrepect a view by calling it stupid.
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i dont respect bush, which is why ill accept your opinion.
but in all honesty and truth, statistics mean jack to me. when i see something like "black and hispanic cultures glorify bla bla bla" its a slap in the face. its not culture that makes people choose their paths, but the understanding and the beliefs they have. a high percent of that comes from experience.
ill add more to this after i get off the toilet
 
Rones said:
Ok, you are all so great at whing and criticizing my view as to what caused that statistics. Yet, I fail to see anyone suggesting another view (beyond Bush is the lord of evil and everything is his fault :roll: ). If my view is so wrong, then what is the right cause?
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There is no right cause. Not everything can be quantified and measured. People need to live their own lives and stop fussing over other people's business. We all need to stop generalizing and start accepting. We're all different, inside and outside of culture.

I can't comment on the video, since this computer doesn't have any speakers.
 
its not culture that makes people choose their paths, but the understanding and the beliefs they have. a high percent of that comes from experience.
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Do you even know what culture means? The understanding and beliefs people develop as children are a result of the culture they grow in. You are right it comes from experience. What they are experieincing is their culture.
There is no right cause. Not everything can be quantified and measured
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I did not mean right cause as in moral cause. I meant right as in the opposite of wrong, since everyone thinks my view is wrong. So what is the actual cause of the low graduation rates among hispanics and blacks?
We're all different, inside and outside of culture.
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You're right, we are all independent unique little snowflakes. :roll: If there were true, cultures trully wouldn't exist.

Here's a crash course on culture.
 
I did not mean right cause as in moral cause. I meant right as in the opposite of wrong, since everyone thinks my view is wrong. So what is the actual cause of the low graduation rates among hispanics and blacks?
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That's why I said not everything can be quantified and measured. Do try to keep up. There is no sole reason.

You're right, we are all independent unique little snowflakes. If there were true, cultures trully wouldn't exist.
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We are. Cultures define similarities, not wholeness. Not one person has another person exactly like him/her. Ever. It's impossible. Not even twins are the same.
 
That's why I said not everything can be quantified and measured. Do try to keep up. There is no sole reason.
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You are right, there is no single cause most likely in this problem. However, that doesn't prevent us from identifying the main sources. I described mine. It is far easier to criticize anothers view than support one of your own. If you are so sure my view is wrong, you must have some idea as to what is right. You can not identify anything as right or wrong without some idea of what the other is. It's a yin yang thing. You can't tell someone they did a math problem wrong unless you have some idea of how to get the right answer.
 
Actually, if you wanted to support your idea with that example, you'd mean the answer, not how to do it, but whatever.

What can I say? They don't understand the language? They feel intimidated? They simply don't have the interest to go? Their parents don't want them to study what they want, so they just don't study? Got a girl pregnant/got pregnant, so they need a job fast? They're there to work and gain money to support their families? All of the above?

Culture has to do with it, the contrast of cultures, though, not a "don't study" mindset. Maybe they don't like what's available to them. Maybe they don't know what's available for them. Maybe they're intimidated, perhaps afraid, maybe desperate. Who knows? We're talking about thousands if not millions of people, how can you possibly come up with one concrete answer? How could you possibly state one answer that is completely ridiculous over a subject so vast?
 
Not all Black or Hispanic people go around thinking they are gang bangers or that school is "stupid" Rones. No "culture" teaches you this, only a bunch of fucking idiots do, and all cultures have them. This is especially true of any person or people who have less than the general population, who in effect are considered "poor". When you are considered poor you tend to think that you have less to lose and then tend to act like a dumbass. With poor white people and Asian people you get alot of the same shit. Just because you have stupid people as a part of your culture that does not mean they should represent it as a whole.

And if they did, then theres only one person in the world that could change that. Creating national awareness programs and financial help to those in need is the way to do it. Leadership is the key. Thats the Presidents job Rones, thats what he's there for. Things don't happen unless the people in charge start the flames, the fire of change. You can't do that and cut taxes and pay off debt, and bomb half the world all at the same time.

Anyway you want to look at it Rones, your either totally wrong, or your President is still at fault.

As far as japanese and schools go...... You are wrong Rones. While yes the media may sensationalize how Japanese people put importance on school, this is not solely a japanese phemonmenon. Are we a bunch of losers who are like pieces of glass and do 1 thing really really good?

Ya maybe. :lol:

Meh, I'd rather be a diamond in the rough. I don't like being a cog in a wheel, an expert at work and a failure at home.

Fuck that shit.
 
And if they did, then theres only one person in the world that could change that.
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That's a great way for everyone to pass off responsibility of any problem. That is not the President's job to fix. When did people lose personal responsbility for their own decisions? It would be up to that culture to fix it internally, because an outside source trying to force a change in someones culture is seen as extremely totolitarian and forceful. Change must come from within. You can not force them to change their culture, they must do it.


Here is an article explaining in detail Hispanic cultural influences that hurt their academic performance like I have tried to explain throughout this thread.
Hispanic adolescents are more inclined than Anglo adolescents to adopt their parents' commitment to religious and political beliefs, occupational preferences, and lifestyle
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Their parents were minimum wage workers, so they feel that's what they should do to, which removes motivation for completing high school or going to college. Finally, here is an extremely detailed cultural comparison on learning styles that further shows differences based upon racial culture.

If you read those two links closely, you will see I'm not just pulling this out my butt nor just from the small sample I have encountered in my part of the globe. This is an extremely well documented and studied phenomenon.
 
I origonally had the following included in my previous post, but the links and studies discussed in the previous post I feel are more important. I did not want to risk it being overshadowed by this discussion of gangs, which tend to always be a hot topic. So if you feel the need to discuss, please look over the material in my previous post before moving on to this.

To explimply the differnce raceial culture makes:
For decades, most of the gangland murders in Los Angeles have grown out of the endless war between the Crips and the Bloods.

And that's still true today, even though Latino gangs outnumber black gangs 209 to 152. There also are 31 Asian gangs; 16 are ''stoner'' gangs that tend toward Gothic dress and rave parties; and eight are white gangs. Together, the L.A. gangs have about 45,000 members, about half the total in all of Southern California.
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Source
Now compare that against L.A.'s demographics. If assume all are equally likely of joining a gang, those ratios do not match up.

And here is some info on gangs in schools
An interview-based study by Boyle (1992) suggests that gang members see school as a necessary evil at best, and at worst as a form of incarceration. Although many gang members acknowledge the importance of the educational objectives of school, school is much more important to them as a place for gathering with fellow gang members for socializing and other more violent activities. Significantly, Boyle also found that even those gang members who had been suspended or had dropped out of school could be found on campus with their associates, effectively using the school as a gang hangout rather than as an educational institution.
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You can read the rest here.
 
Hispanic-Americans are united by customs, language, religion, and values. There is, however, an extensive diversity of traits among Hispanic-Americans. One characteristic that is of paramount importance in most Hispanic cultures is family commitment, which involves loyalty, a strong support system, a belief that a child's behavior reflects on the honor of the family, a hierarchical order among siblings, and a duty to care for family members. This strong sense of other-directedness conflicts with the United States' mainstream emphasis on individualism (Vasquez, 1990). Indeed, Hispanic culture's emphasis on cooperation in the attainment of goals can result in Hispanic students' discomfort with this nation's conventional classroom competition.
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Starts right there, and gives a logical answer.

Puerto-Rican college students exhibit a strong preference for learning in the late morning, afternoon, and evening.
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This, while irrelevant, I can say is true.

Demographic variables other than gender and ethnicity that impact on learning style may not be isolated in studies. These variables include socioeconomic class, geographical region, primary language, religion, family structure, and number of generations in the U.S.
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This, however, is very relevant. Thanks for the source.

Educators need to be aware of self-image problems of Hispanic-American students that may result from a rejection of their ethnicity and from attempts to conform to the larger Anglo culture. To address these problems, educators can plan interventions that acknowledge and celebrate cultural diversity when teaching and counseling Hispanic youth.
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Is it them rejecting themselves or them being rejected by others? Either way, this has nothing to do with culture concentrating on them not studying, only discomfort with new surroundings, passed down from parents to children until it simply disappears.
 
Answa~ said:
Demographic variables other than gender and ethnicity that impact on learning style may not be isolated in studies. These variables include socioeconomic class, geographical region, primary language, religion, family structure, and number of generations in the U.S.
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This, however, is very relevant. Thanks for the source.
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That is just the opinion that one articles authors. As you can see if you read the 2nd article, they can and do look at far more variables than just gender and ethnicity. I suspect they actually meant to say those other variables could not be isolated in their own studies.

I'm sure you have heard of the nature vs nurture debate. It is the discussion on where our personality comes from, born with it (dna) or collected from expereinces (culture). The general consensus is some of each (how much is the debate). The culture you grow up with affects who you are. How an individual looks at the importance of academics is determined some by your culture (how much is part of that N.vs N. debate). When a child grows up in a culture that puts less signifigance on academics and more on macho/thug image for example, the result should be obvious. Whose the child's role model is another example of how culture will affect them; Albert Einstein or Snoop Dog.
 
I'm glad you finally remembered how to type.

This study verifies that students prefer to learn in ways that are personally unique to each individual student.
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And they didn't look for economical class, religion, nor the number of generations in the US.

We aren't ourselves due to environment and nature alone, we're ourselves because we have choices and we can choose from them. You see, this is my big fight with sociology, psychology, and whatever the hell else deals with people's minds. We're all different, not just on DNA. If it were solely up to nature and nurture, we'd still all be the same, because we all have the same origins.

I can allow you to say that there are more people that support gangs and crap inside a culture than outside it, but don't blame the culture, blame the people. All cultures are flawed yet are beautiful, but I can assure you no culture will ever simply support gangs, thugs, or non-education.
 
You see, this is my big fight with sociology, psychology, and whatever the hell else deals with people's minds. We're all different, not just on DNA. If it were solely up to nature and nurture, we'd still all be the same, because we all have the same origins.
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I think we have found the most basic element that is causing us to disagree so much. I see people as very predictable and non-unique after looking at so many studies in psychology and sociology, but you prefer to see everyone as unique snowflakes. People worry about clones, I say we already have them. I'm not going to try to debate human individuality with you as it is a very complicated subject matter and I doubt either of us would change our views on the matter.
 
Indeed, but discussion should be productive so as to know each other's viewpoint, regardless of if we're going to change our minds.

We're from different places, we've lived different lives, we've made different choices, it should all fit, right? But what happens when you make similar choices while under the influence of opposing stimuli? I'm taking psychology this semester, so I do know some of the terminology. We are not some uniform assembly line, we're not an antfarm, toiling away for one queen, we're all different people trying to survive our own problems.

How do you view this? I'd really like to know what makes you think we're not all individuals? You need not look any further than the Flameboard, diversity itself.
 
Just wait until you reach conformity in your psychology class. You'll be showen study upon study upon study of how people just do what others do, what they are told to do, etc. Given the same situational stimuli, people are remarkable at reacting the same way (you'll see studies on this too). The DNA built in aspects are the most obvious, for example touching both sides of a babies cheeks makes them open their mouths or the fear of loud noises and dark everyone is born with (but typically overcomes eventually). The internet is something of a wild card because it provides anonimity that is not found naturally in our normal lives. It can cause some randomness to peoples behavior I'll admit. However, in a real life situation that randomness is no longer present.

Even something as 'complicated' as love is capable of being broken down pretty accurately by psychology. With a deep enough understanding you can predict people better than the weather. For example, if you know whether somene comes from a collectivist or individualist culture, you can predict how they will react to many situations. Given the Prisoner's Dilemma (if you haven't read it, google has lots of info), the choice of the participant has a high correlation with which of the cultures they come from. It is studies like that which make me feel people are predictable.
 
I am an American. I live in a country with my fellow Americans. We are all pushed and driven to succeed. Some of us make the choice to do so. Some of us don't.

Ahh. The Glory of a Free Country, no?
 
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