God and Amputees.

[Trippyhippy]

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Someone posted video in that thread about buying Jesus that had this link in it. He lays it out as logiclly as possible, counter points and all.

I would guess reading the whole thing would be a serious test of faith.

For those of you that are too lazy to click the link:

Spoiler:

Jesus makes an extremely clear statement about prayer in Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
Nothing could be simpler than that. All that you have to do is say a prayer, then "believe that you have received it," and your prayer will be answered. That is what Jesus promises, and Jesus is God so he is perfect.

...

What if two people pray for two things that are opposites? If they both believe, who is going to win? For example:

...

Imagine that a farmer prays for a good, soaking, daylong rain on Saturday, while a bride who is having her wedding nearby prays for crystal clear sunshine on the same day. One of them is going to lose.

Imagine that the fans of two opposing football teams both pray for their teams to win the Super Bowl. One group is going to lose.

Imagine that one member of a devout couple prays to become pregnant, and the other prays that they do not. One of them is going to lose.

...

When you add all of this to the concepts from the previous chapters, you realize that Jesus misspoke rather broadly when he talked about prayer. Instead of saying:

"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."
What Jesus might have meant was this:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it might be yours, as long as it is possible, and as long as it is my will, and as long as what you pray for does not violate a law of nature, and as long as what you are praying for does not violate a law of probability, and as long as what you pray for does not turn another person into a puppet, and as long as no one else who is praying for the same thing believes more than you do."

Spoiler:

The meaning of amputees

In this chapter, I would like to suggest two conclusions that we can draw from the way that God treats amputees. These two suggestions may seem completely ridiculous when you first hear them. What I would ask, however, is that you give me one moment to explain.

Here is what God's treatment of amputees suggests:

First, the evidence with amputees suggests that God does not answer any medical prayers at all. It is not just that God ignores amputees. It is that God ignores every medical prayer. Amputees suggest that all medical miracles are an illusion.

Second, the evidence suggests that you already know this. While you do not admit it to yourself consciously, at the subconscious level you already know that God does not answer any medical prayers. Furthermore, you are acting on that knowledge every day.

Spoiler:

Norm: Does God answer your prayers?
Chris: Yes, of course. I have a strong personal relationship with God. I pray to him many times each day. Jesus hears my prayers and, through his grace and the grace of the Holy Spirit, my prayers are answered. I am blessed every day by God.

Norm: So if you prayed to Jesus for something, would he answer your prayer?

Chris: Yes. Of course. Jesus promises in the Bible that he answers prayers. We see prayers being answered constantly.

Norm: Why pay for health insurance if you can pray and God will cure you? Why do people need doctors, prescriptions and hospitals?

Chris: Sometimes it is not God's will to answer prayers.

Norm: But in John 14:14, Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." James 5:15 says, "The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well." Why would God ignore your prayers?

Chris: God is not some Santa in the sky. He does not answer prayers like that.

Norm: Didn't you just say that God answers prayers? In the Bible, doesn't Jesus promise to answer prayers?

Chris: God does answer prayers. I can show you millions of examples of God answering prayers. I have 20 books on my shelf at home filled with answered prayers.

Norm: Then why do you need health insurance?

Chris: Because, sometimes, it is not God's will to answer a prayer.

Norm: Why do you say that? "The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well" is completely unambiguous. But when you pray for a cure, in a lot of cases nothing happens. Doesn't that mean that Jesus is lying?

Chris: No. Jesus is perfect so Jesus cannot lie. When God does not answer a prayer, it is not part of his plan.

Norm: So you go to the doctor anyway?

Chris: Yes. Of course I do.

Norm: Aren't you defying God's will? Aren't you ruining God's plan?

Chris: No. God does not intend for me to be sick.

Norm: Then why doesn't God answer your prayers and cure you himself?

Chris: There is no way that we can understand the mysteries of our Lord.

Spoiler:

A cascade of problems

It's not like I am revealing some hidden truth here. The funny thing about amputees is that this evidence is obvious to everyone. We have all seen that God ignores the prayers of amputees. This evidence has been plainly visible for centuries.

Amputees are not the only ones either. For example:

If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help.

If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option.

A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem.

 

[Shyrra]

I am hardly anti-religion, but I love stuff like this. I often find myself debating religious inconsistencies with "devout" christians, and it always ends with: "It is all part of God's plan, and we can not understand the intricacies of his plan" heh.

Cool find, Trippy.

 

[Bela]

I enjoy a good spar (be it with nonbelievers or the zealots) but it all comes down to an inarguable point.
Faith.
Either you have it or not. You can't force it nor can you remove it. Period.

 

[Tyrath]

Interesting stuff

Site seems down though D:

 

[Tymon]

Either you have it or not. You can't force it nor can you remove it. Period.

I'll have to rate you up for this. Because it's completely true.

 

[Shyrra]

I enjoy a good spar (be it with nonbelievers or the zealots) but it all comes down to an inarguable point.
Faith.
Either you have it or not. You can't force it nor can you remove it. Period.

Faith is one thing, and I believe it's a good thing. However, blind faith, without logical base is a terrible thing. Blindly believing in any one religion for no reason other than "Your parents were religious" is horrible. I fully support people who think long and hard about it, consider each aspect, etc. etc. and still continue to believe, that's great. But blindly believing anything and everything is what maddens me.

 

[Excalibur]

In another part of the Bible (Mathew chapter 6 I think) Jesus also tells us how to pray. The opening to the example He gives is: "Hallowed be Thy name, Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in Heaven". This means that when you're praying if you're asking for something you want you should also be asking that God's will be done. Ergo your prayers are always answered.
Now you're gonna ask "Why should I even pray if God is just going to carry out his will everytime?" Well maybe his will is that you actually ask for the thing you want. Your prayers can also greatly influence his will. Maybe he was planning on doing one thing but since you asked for something else he changes his plan. Bottom line though is that you're not gonna always get everything you want. Sometimes your plan isn't the same as God's, we just have to trust that he knows what's best.


This is why you can't just cherry pick verses in order to prove your point. This is also why God tells us to read our Bible and get to know it. You can't just go by what one verse says all by itself, you have to take into account what all the verses around it say.

Faith is one thing, and I believe it's a good thing. However, blind faith, without logical base is a terrible thing. Blindly believing in any one religion for no reason other than "Your parents were religious" is horrible. I fully support people who think long and hard about it, consider each aspect, etc. etc. and still continue to believe, that's great. But blindly believing anything and everything is what maddens me.

QFT

 

[Ryuhei]

Now you're gonna ask "Why should I even pray if God is just going to carry out his will everytime?" Well maybe his will is that you actually ask for the thing you want. Your prayers can also greatly influence his will. Maybe he was planning on doing one thing but since you asked for something else he changes his plan. Bottom line though is that you're not gonna always get everything you want. Sometimes your plan isn't the same as God's, we just have to trust that he knows what's best.

Reasoning like that is why this...

But it all comes down to an inarguable point: Faith.
Either you have it or not.

...is how each religious debate will inevitably end.

This is why you can't just cherry pick verses in order to prove your point. This is also why God tells us to read our Bible and get to know it. You can't just go by what one verse says all by itself, you have to take into account what all the verses around it say.

I strongly agree with this statement, and I feel most Christians don't follow their Bible well enough. I've gone over to plenty of Christian homes, and I have never, not once, been offered a virgin daughter in God's name. What's up with that?

 

[Ryuhei]

I fully support people who think long and hard about it, consider each aspect, etc. etc. and still continue to believe, that's great.

I don't. I support personal strength, triumph, and fierce introspection. If someone sincerely claims the above is their situation, there's something within them that they haven't assessed, or subconsciously refuse to assess.

This is a debate I have held many times with people of far varying religoius creeds. I apologize if I'm blunt, but the other side needs to be voiced.

 

[Sharpe]

I don't believe in an invisible sky wizard and find it quite strange how one could.

 

[Uzor]

Good find. I'll read it when I come home from work.

 

[Dejavu]

Well as far as im concerned there are 2 real schools of thought on this subject.

God is a kid with an antfarm aka faith in god's will. The nice thing about this argument is that it is impossible to disprove.

The second is there is no god. In which case i can beat off in the shower without that someone is watching feeling... file this one up next to santa... if he knows everything im up to im fucked.

here so i can put up an invalid arguement as well i will argue from defination.

Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that one has not proven formally or cannot prove formally. Formal usage of the word "faith" is largely reserved for concepts of religion, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality (therefore spirituality and spiritual immortality), or else in a Supreme Being and their role as a guide for people moving into an experience of such reality.

Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as "trust," "belief," or "hope". For example, the word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. (For informal uses of the word "faith", see Faith (word)). As with "trust," faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes.

 

[Diabllos]

I don't believe in an invisible sky wizard and find it quite strange how one could.

Your upbringing can have a very strong influence on your beliefs. Some things that your parents tell you that seem crazy, can be gulped up quite easily as a child.

*Cough* Santa Claus *cough*

 

[Myrrh]

Wait, Santa isn't real? That's not fucking cool man. Who the hell have I been writing letters to all these years? Fuck man, don't tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real either. I don't think I could handle that.

 

[Stine]

Also, you need to remember that God gave his word to man and man wrote it. Then man edited it and decided which texts belong in the Bible. Then man translated it. Then some kings and popes and some monks edited it. I was taught that with prayer that you can ask for what you want but you might not get it in the way that you want it to be.

Faith is one thing, and I believe it's a good thing. However, blind faith, without logical base is a terrible thing. Blindly believing in any one religion for no reason other than "Your parents were religious" is horrible. I fully support people who think long and hard about it, consider each aspect, etc. etc. and still continue to believe, that's great. But blindly believing anything and everything is what maddens me.

I'm with Shyrra here. Blind faith in anything is terrible. Whether you blindly believe in God, the Spaghetti Monster, or that there isn't a divine being, it is dangerous. Research different religions and philosophies so you know what you believe. Most religious and philosophical texts have been edited and translated so many, many times that it may not even mean what it was supposed to when it was written. Everyone should look for themselves.

Thank you for the link Trippy.

 

[Tristam Green]

Whether you blindly believe in God, the Spaghetti Monster, or that there isn't a divine being...

You forgot one!

Likewise, while I believe in a "Master Plan" by God, I also believe that blindly following HUMAN doctrines about religion is far more destructive than searching one's own heart and finding a way within. Blind faith only comes as a result of a) placating the masses into a lethargic submission, and b) the use of religion/religious organizations and doctrines as a means for political and personal gain.

Religion for personal gain, no matter how seemingly insignificant, is an occurrence that has existed for millenia. Just as "nothing can change" when people have or have no faith, nothing can change that religious doctrine will be used for the gain of those who are in power.

The only consolation that I find in it is that while it will always exist in the earthly aspect, use of religion and stature for personal and/or political gain does outright violate at least two of everyone's favorite Ten Commandments (seriously folks, they aren't suggestions -- that's why they're called COMMANDments), and as I see it, the punishment for hubris far outweighs the benefits gained during a short lifespan.

Thanks for this, Trip.

 

[Sharpe]

Your upbringing can have a very strong influence on your beliefs. Some things that your parents tell you that seem crazy, can be gulped up quite easily as a child.

*Cough* Santa Claus *cough*

However, how many people once they reach an age of free thought still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy?

 

[Tristam Green]

Piss off. I believe in Santa Claus, and I don't need to believe in the Tooth Fairy because I made my money off her a long time ago

 

[Sharpe]

Tooth Fairy should be banned, it just encourages kids to smash their teeth out.

 

[Morwen]

However, how many people once they reach an age of free thought still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy?

Well I think that depends. Historically, there was a man that went by Santa Claus (something like it, I believe it was German and I refuse to butcher the name) and he gave freely to people and young children who were poverty stricken. I think that the message it shows (care and selfless giving) is something that people will chose to believe in. Not necessarily the tired, beat up Hallmark version. He passed away as any natural man would (minus any reindeer) and his tradition and story passed on. As with any oral tradition the story was widely exaggerated. The point is, people are still giving gifts to the less fortunate and to their loved ones. So... the point was made. It's just sad we need an excuse to do it.

The same can go for religion. A couple thousand years ago, some guy said a lot of important stuff. That important stuff was told to a guy that knew how to write, by some poor bastard that had listened to his sermon for how ever many hours before he traveled to find the guy that knew how to write. It's not like they had tape recorders or a scribe right there saying "Excuse me, important guy with the glowing aura of humility and peace? Could you go back to that last part, I didn't quite get that.". A lot of people take the Bible to heart and treat it like Jesus wrote it himself. He didn't. Stine is right, countless numbers of people have edited and added to it to fit their own devices. It's pretty fucking stupid. Even if there is an 'original unedited version' its so deep within a vault in a catacomb underneath the Vatican that we'll never see it. Maybe its with the writings of the missing 13 years of his life. I can't base my religion off of a shitload of contradiction. "Go to Church or you'll go to Hell", "The world is God's house, you can speak to him from anywhere, you need not a priest to speak to him as he is with you always" (generous amounts of paraphrasing, forgive me). "God is an unforgiving God" "God is a caring, loving God". C'mon guys.

I do not associate my belief system with the Judeo-Christian faith, but I will say something that everyone can believe in. Faith, gives you hope and fills your heart. Faith, of any kind, is beautiful. Even if you think a big pink bunny lays eggs.