God and Amputees.

[Linhjah]

They directly impede on my life, and therefore I have a right to say something about it. They come to my door, praising the good word. They yell at my friends for being gay. They protest on my schools fucking doorstep for the funerals of 5 men and women killed in a terrible tragedy. They judge and judge and judge. They ask for money. They put "In God We Trust" on my money. They've been taking away our rights, one by one, for the past 8 years (I'm looking at you G.W.B). They're hypocrites. They dismiss all rational thought.

I could go on, but Christians piss me off. Get a life and accept that the only place you're going after you die is a grave.

Let's continue on with all the generalizations.

Anyone who is prolife bombs abortion clinics.
People who never learned to read are stupid and lazy.
Women who are raped bring it on themselves.
The only things Americans eat are pizza and macaroni and cheese.

Fucking ridiculous, isn't it. Your logical fallacy is hasty generalization - my "rational thought" tells me this. You are basing your thoughts on Christians on the actions of a very small portion of Christians who happen to be misguided individuals. Most Christians do not consider their behavior to be Christian at all.

 

[Alyada]

Let's continue on with all the generalizations.

Anyone who is prolife bombs abortion clinics.
People who never learned to read are stupid and lazy.
Women who are raped bring it on themselves.
The only things Americans eat are pizza and macaroni and cheese.

Fucking ridiculous, isn't it. Your logical fallacy is hasty generalization - my "rational thought" tells me this. You are basing your thoughts on Christians on the actions of a very small portion of Christians who happen to be misguided individuals. Most Christians do not consider their behavior to be Christian at all.

You know, in real life, we're shown that one bad apple ruins the bunch. Don't see how much different this is.

Sure, we're all adults, but normal adults stop believing in imaginary friends at a young age.

 

[Alyada]

For lack of a better word, ARGH. I sincerely hope by "they" you don't mean The Westboro Fucktard Church. You know, I'm sorry they did what they did after the shootings Aly, but it doesn't mean that THEY REPRESENT THE FAITH AS A WHOLE.

Everyone judges.

Everyone asks for money.

The 1956 US Anti-Communist Government put "In God We Trust" as our National Motto. It wasn't Christians in general, it was just those who HAPPENED to be in power, as a way to advance their own agenda.

Neoconservatives have been amending and removing "rights" in so many words, for eight years. They're doing it in the name of national security, not in the name of religion. So I have zero idea where that logic comes from.

Sadly I've lost a large amount of respect for you because you're raving as blindly in the opposite direction as those you so fervently despise.

I'll reiterate: It's a fucking shame what happened at your school, and it's even worse that those assholes came and picketed in their fashion. They may think they speak for the Christian faith as a whole, but I assure you they do not. However, no amount of me telling you that they aren't our spokespersons, they aren't our beacon of hope, they aren't our heralds, will seemingly convince you otherwise.


Good day to you, sir.

I know this, Tristam. I have a few (a very select few) of friends that regard Jesus as their personal savior and, mostly, we don't talk about religion. I'm not biased against all Christians, but I am a firm supporter that there should be a very clear, defined rule system. I don't want Christians on my doorstep because I don't walk around preaching that God doesn't exist (though, I have the damn right too.. maybe I should). I don't want God in my schools, where my children go. I don't want God rubbed in my face for my friend choices and my life choices.

I find it silly, however, that you give people God and they turn into hate mongering anti-socialites that do nothing but further their own agenda of hate. God can be the cause of much good in the world, but also so much hate.

I just can't see why we should worship this... diety, if he is going to exclude everyone that doesn't believe in him. I mean, considering, he is most of the old world gods wrapped into one and the story of Jesus isn't original to the Christian faith.

Just seems like Christianity has a lot to hide.

 

[Stine]

You know, in real life, we're shown that one bad apple ruins the bunch. Don't see how much different this is.

Sure, we're all adults, but normal adults stop believing in imaginary friends at a young age.

You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want. As long as we aren't promoting hate we should be fine. Everyone has their own reasons for believing what they do. As long as we don't blindly follow someone we're good.

Also, I'm sure that the Westboro Baptist Church people would think that Tristam and I are going to hell because we have gay friends too.

 

[Linhjah]

You know, in real life, we're shown that one bad apple ruins the bunch. Don't see how much different this is.

Sure, we're all adults, but normal adults stop believing in imaginary friends at a young age.

The difference is that - for the bad apple to ruin the bunch - it has to actually be in contact with the rest of the apples.

You are preaching prejudiced ideals and spouting hateful crap, and aren't those things that make you not like Christians? You hate all Christians because of the actions of a few people. What do the things you've stated here say about atheists?

 

[Mirewen]

They yell at my friends for being gay.

Do not say that all Christians do this. That is ignorance. I have several gay friends. The pastor of the United Church I went to as a child was gay. Not all Christians are the same. You can't paint everyone with the same brush.

 

[Tristam Green]

I know this, Tristam. I have a few (a very select few) of friends that regard Jesus as their personal savior and, mostly, we don't talk about religion. I'm not biased against all Christians, but I am a firm supporter that there should be a very clear, defined rule system. I don't want Christians on my doorstep because I don't walk around preaching that God doesn't exist (though, I have the damn right too.. maybe I should). I don't want God in my schools, where my children go. I don't want God rubbed in my face for my friend choices and my life choices.

So send your children to a private school. Not all of them are parochial schools, so it doesn't necessarily have to be "that way".

I find it silly, however, that you give people God and they turn into hate mongering anti-socialites that do nothing but further their own agenda of hate. God can be the cause of much good in the world, but also so much hate.

Replace the word "God" with "Allah" or "National Security" or "a cause" and you get the same exact thing. Really, you give anyone something to believe in, and inevitably someone will exploit it to their own means.

I just can't see why we should worship this... diety, if he is going to exclude everyone that doesn't believe in him. I mean, considering, he is most of the old world gods wrapped into one and the story of Jesus isn't original to the Christian faith.

Actually, the deal about Jesus and the entire New Testament is that God opened Himself to the (former) non-believers through a New Covenant -- namely, the Gentiles. Old Testament, you had to be a Jew to be in the graces of God. New Testament, it doesn't matter anymore! Anyone can do it. Men are the ones who put stipulations on it.

Just seems like Christianity has a lot to hide.

I'd argue that it's really the Vatican who has a lot to hide, and still do. I'm not Anti-Catholic, I'm just anti-establishment -- lolz.

***Edit***
I don't mind talking religion with anyone. My only exceptions are the real closed-minded -- those persons who won't even talk civilly, even when I don't want or necessarily care what they believe in; and those who incessantly have to need to force their will on me.

Also, I'm sure that the Westboro Baptist Church people would think that Tristam and I are going to hell because we have gay friends too.

If I'm going to Hell, and I'm fairly certain I'm not, it'd be for far worse things than having some homosexual acquaintances.

 

[Stine]

I know this, Tristam. I have a few (a very select few) of friends that regard Jesus as their personal savior and, mostly, we don't talk about religion. I'm not biased against all Christians, but I am a firm supporter that there should be a very clear, defined rule system. I don't want Christians on my doorstep because I don't walk around preaching that God doesn't exist (though, I have the damn right too.. maybe I should). I don't want God in my schools, where my children go. I don't want God rubbed in my face for my friend choices and my life choices.

I find it silly, however, that you give people God and they turn into hate mongering anti-socialites that do nothing but further their own agenda of hate. God can be the cause of much good in the world, but also so much hate.

I just can't see why we should worship this... diety, if he is going to exclude everyone that doesn't believe in him. I mean, considering, he is most of the old world gods wrapped into one and the story of Jesus isn't original to the Christian faith.

Just seems like Christianity has a lot to hide.

It's like the old saying God created man in his image and man returned the favor. Unfortunately in every religion there has been hate and killing done in the name of a deity and it doesn't look like that it is going away anytime soon.

You do have the right to not to want to have someone at your door preaching to you. Honestly I don't think that people should have the right to tell you and your friends that your lifestyle choices are incorrect. It just creates hate and hard feelings. I know that most school systems are trying to take any religious material out of the schools with the exception of some history classes. The best advice that I have is to research the schools that you and your fiance are going to live in and see which one fits best. Honestly I don't know of there being any atheist or agnostic private schools. I'm kind of surprised that there isn't one really with the growing population of atheists and agnostics. I would say home schooling to be completely safe but I don't know how much time that you would have to dedicate to teaching your children. If all else fails, be sure to educate your children in the fact that they don't have to say "under God" when saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Also, voice concern to their teachers. They should be respectful of your decision and if not you can always take your children to another school and sue them for freedom of religion rights.

 

[Alyada]

What do the things you've stated here say about atheists?

Atheists don't have to conform to any of your rules. We don't read the bible, remember? Jesus isn't our personal lord and savior. Plus, atheists are not a cohesive mass and do not represent each other. We are just people. If you judge atheists by what I say then you're being a hypocrite. We are not a religion. Religion, and by proxy, Christianity, is both a bad and good force in the world. I understand that. However, it's easier to see the bad when homosexuals are being beheaded in Iraq and Iran. It's easy to see the hate speech when they come marching down your lawn.

I'm sorry for my ignorant hate speech I spouted in my earlier posts. I have a very, very hard time dealing with any God-believer because of my past. I have been mistreated and completely destroyed emotionally by members of a Church I used to belong to. I was foolish then and did not realize that these people resembled more of a cult than a Christian organization.

I do believe Christians do a lot of good in the world. However, my mind cannot grasp the idea of an all-powerful deity concerned with the everyday workings of my life. I will not believe the ignorant hate speech, and the radical 'love' speeches spouted off by men claiming to the vassal of God. I ground my thoughts on life and the world as a whole in scientific reason and logic. If I can see it happen, I will believe it. I don't see God swooping down on a chariot made of the bones of atheists, so I don't believe that me not believing will send me straight to my eternal damnation.

Science has proven that evolution is a fact. Science has proven that the earth is not flat, that the life is just as fragile as a blade of grass, and so far, that no God ('heathen' or otherwise) exists. All my thoughts are electronic impulses sent through a meaty-tissue-y mass that resides in my skull. I'd rather worship Thor, like Hail, than God. At least Thor has a reason he doesn't show up in our existence. God showed up over 2,000 years ago and has been creepily silent since then.

Show me proof of God and I will believe. Until then, you'll have to deal with my vehement opposition to anything he stands for.

EDIT

I gotta go mow grass now and listen to Flight of the Valkyries. I really am sorry for attacking your beliefs. It's just kind of a knee-jerk reaction to anyone who says the word "God" or "Jesus" in my presence.

 

[Halifirien]

Honestly I don't know of there being any atheist or agnostic private schools. I'm kind of surprised that there isn't one really with the growing population of atheists and agnostics.

There's no need for such schools, since (ideally) the public schools are supposed to be neutral on the subject of religion.

 

[Stine]

There's no need for such schools, since (ideally) the public schools are supposed to be neutral on the subject of religion.

Yeah but another reason for private schools is to surpass the education system of public schools. I know that in my state the public school system sucks and most of the private schools around here are Christian schools.

 

[Trippyhippy]

I only have a couple of minutes on my lunch break, I'll go more into this later, but I feel like the need to respond to some of this now.

There is no burden of proof, simply because no amount of witnessing (and I mean, REAL witnessing, not that "God spared my house during the storm because I prayed for Him to" bull) will satisfy your need for weights and measures or a lock of God's hair (He created Man in His image, so to me, God doesn't *have* hair).

The burden of proof lies on the shoulders of anyone that makes an outrageous claim.

As far as I've seen, there has been nothing but civility from the spiritual/religious/Christian/Muslim end of this discussion, and an increasing amount of hostility from the Atheist/Agnostic side. I hate to put it in terms like that, but it's my observation. I'm sorely disappointed because I expected better of the QCDN RSI Forum Population. If I wanted to be bashed incessantly for my faith, beliefs, or feelings then I'd go lurk the Ubuntu Forums where they eat that kind of stuff for breakfast.

You are simply percieving our honest opinions as hostile. We are simply trying to tell the truth, there is no need to get mad over our opinion. Especially since it quite obviously will get no consideration anyway. This topic was made to discuss a website, not to debate religious views. Your side is the one that came in this thread getting defensive. All of you site that "most christians don't act that way". Well then, those are obviously not the ones we are criticizing.

As this thread has degenerated from civil discourse to petty squabbles and bashing ad infinitum, I gracefully retire.

If it goes back towards a better discussion, I might return.

The petty squables are all coming from your side. We give an example, which all consisty of things we have seen with our own 2 eyes, and then you tell us since 100% of christians aren't that way, we can't fault christianity because it's the person acting that way, not the religion making them act that way.

You are in denial and there would be no arguement if you could admit that there is a large portion of religious people intent on taking away the freedoms of anyone that doesn't see it their way.

 

[Tristam Green]

There's no need for such schools, since (ideally) the public schools are supposed to be neutral on the subject of religion.

You're absolutely right. They are supposed to remain neutral. Now, I eagerly approached my 10th grade Bio class because it was at what I consider the height of the Evolution vs. Creation-in-the-classroom debates, in 1997 and 98. I might could be a little ignorant about it now since a) I don't have kids that age and b) I don't particularly care, because I'll teach my kids that both are entirely plausible, that I believe in both (evolution in the form of adaptation to environment without a Young-Earth Creationism), and let him make the decision.

I digress. My Bio teacher handled the issue exceptionally well and with grace. He explained that some people believe in A theory, others believed in B theory, and there were some who recognized components of A and B and felt that the two could complement each other (the stance I have). He was one of my better teachers, and I always wish I'd thanked him more for handling it with the aplomb he showed. The school was in the heart of the state of Alabama, in case you were wondering.

 

[Tristam Green]

The burden of proof lies on the shoulders of anyone that makes an outrageous claim.

You are simply percieving our honest opinions as hostile. We are simply trying to tell the truth, there is no need to get mad over our opinion. Especially since it quite obviously will get no consideration anyway. This topic was made to discuss a website, not to debate religious views. Your side is the one that came in this thread getting defensive. All of you site that "most christians don't act that way". Well then, those are obviously not the ones we are criticizing.

The petty squables are all coming from your side. We give an example, which all consisty of things we have seen with our own 2 eyes, and then you tell us since 100% of christians aren't that way, we can't fault christianity because it's the person acting that way, not the religion making them act that way.

You are in denial and there would be no arguement if you could admit that there is a large portion of religious people intent on taking away the freedoms of anyone that doesn't see it their way.

If we are placed on the defensive, of course we will become defensive. Never once did I see a person "of faith" in this thread become hostile, however.

Examples of being placed on the defensive side of the argument, and I duly apologize to the people being quoted here:

I don't believe in an invisible sky wizard and find it quite strange how one could.

I don't understand the idea behind faith being a good thing. I think it's one of the worst things ever created by man. It's nothing more than trust that hasn't been earned. I see people with faith and it saddens me. To have absolute true faith in anything is to set yourself up for disappointment.

Faith is for people that don't care how things work. I can't accept the answer "That's just the way things are." for anything. It's like a person who drives a car but doesn't know anything about it, except maybe where the gas goes. I can't do that, and I don't understand how anyone can. In my eyes, that is just living with ignorance. But that is being ignorant about something that doesn't matter. Religion is being ignorant about something that consumes your life and every aspect of it.

Normally i don't let the ignorance of others bother me. Religion is different though. It has several negative effects on me (and every other non-believer) directly.

I wish that it was freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion.

And then, and again my complete and sincere apologies to Alyada, I'm just illustrating a point, here is blatant hostility:

Sometimes, I just want to rub my friend’s nose in the bible and go “BAD HUMAN! BAD!” and snap my fingers a couple of times.

If it can work on dogs, it can work on idiots.

Now, even after being placed on the defensive, Stine and myself, the effectively outspoken advocates in this thread regarding Christian faith and belief systems, I still fail to see where we've become hostile -- maybe me, but I speak for Tristam Green, and not for Christianity.

Honestly it saddens me when people don't have faith but I respect and understand that their life experiences have drawn them to believe otherwise. I am not living in ignorance. I have read books of many different points of view and from what I have seen in my life shows in my eyes that God exists and is real. As I have posted in another thread, there are many scientists who believe in God too and they are anything but ignorant. Believe me it's easier to not believe in God. Science doesn't disprove God and believing in God doesn't mean that you have to not believe in science.

I don't call you ignorant for your beliefs because I know that everyone is free to believe what they want. There is no law in the US that says that you have to practice a faith. In fact, any type of prayer in public schools is banned in most schools that I know of and slowly we're taking religious items out of government buildings. I won't be surprised when "In God we trust" is taken off of our money.

While you have given us your honest opinion, and with things you have seen with your own two eyes, we have given our examples of the very same thing, along with things we two have felt in our hearts.

I don't understand where the incivility came from, and I rather don't give a shit -- I just wanted it to stop. For the most part, it has. Otherwise I wouldn't have replied to this.

 

[Tyrath]

but they do have a belief.. they believe that God does not exist. They can't prove it, not truly. They can prove religious words wrong when they contradict or don't work.. but those who are set on believing there is no God are just as much working in a sort of faith as those who believe there is a God.

If anything.. Society itself is God. It's not something tangible, it's something that shapes us all, it's a very powerful force... it sounds like God to me.

lol...

You choose to not have faith. That doesn't mean you have a faith of not having a faith. If anything, agnostics have faith in something, they just don't know what.

As far as I've seen, there has been nothing but civility from the spiritual/religious/Christian/Muslim end of this discussion, and an increasing amount of hostility from the Atheist/Agnostic side.

I still fail to see where we've become hostile -- maybe me, but I speak for Tristam Green, and not for Christianity.

Doesn't that also say its not necessarily all Atheists/Agnostics, but certain individuals?

 

[Stine]

I only have a couple of minutes on my lunch break, I'll go more into this later, but I feel like the need to respond to some of this now.

There is no burden of proof, simply because no amount of witnessing (and I mean, REAL witnessing, not that "God spared my house during the storm because I prayed for Him to" bull) will satisfy your need for weights and measures or a lock of God's hair (He created Man in His image, so to me, God doesn't *have* hair).

The burden of proof lies on the shoulders of anyone that makes an outrageous claim.



You are simply percieving our honest opinions as hostile. We are simply trying to tell the truth, there is no need to get mad over our opinion. Especially since it quite obviously will get no consideration anyway. This topic was made to discuss a website, not to debate religious views. Your side is the one that came in this thread getting defensive. All of you site that "most christians don't act that way". Well then, those are obviously not the ones we are criticizing.
The petty squables are all coming from your side. We give an example, which all consisty of things we have seen with our own 2 eyes, and then you tell us since 100% of christians aren't that way, we can't fault christianity because it's the person acting that way, not the religion making them act that way.

You are in denial and there would be no arguement if you could admit that there is a large portion of religious people intent on taking away the freedoms of anyone that doesn't see it their way.

Actually most people first came in saying that everyone should look for themselves in order to make their own educated opinion about it. I know I posted that the Bible was written and edited by man so you can't take it verbatim. Then there were some people saying that Christians are ignorant for believing what we do. That might be their honest opinion but using words like ignorant can be hostile. Yes we can say that you shouldn't fault Christians as a whole because it does matter individually what they take away from their faith. With most philosophies and beliefs every one interprets them differently. We wouldn't have literature classes if every single person had the same perspective and interpreted it the same way. We wouldn't have so many, many different denominations of Christianity if people didn't see it different ways either.

Also, I think we did admit that there is a large portion of misguided religious people who seek to take freedoms away from others that don't believe what they do (i. e. Westboro Baptist Church).

 

[Tristam Green]

Doesn't that also say its not necessarily all Atheists/Agnostics, but certain individuals?

That's why I said "in this discussion" rather than "all".

 

[Tyrath]

That's why I said "in this discussion" rather than "all".

My point was, either its from one side or its from individuals.

Either its hostility coming from Atheists and Christians or its coming from Alyada and you (and whoever else, i haven't read the full thread). Can't selectively label it depending on the side.

 

[Alyada]

You're absolutely right. They are supposed to remain neutral. Now, I eagerly approached my 10th grade Bio class because it was at what I consider the height of the Evolution vs. Creation-in-the-classroom debates, in 1997 and 98. I might could be a little ignorant about it now since a) I don't have kids that age and b) I don't particularly care, because I'll teach my kids that both are entirely plausible, that I believe in both (evolution in the form of adaptation to environment without a Young-Earth Creationism), and let him make the decision.

I digress. My Bio teacher handled the issue exceptionally well and with grace. He explained that some people believe in A theory, others believed in B theory, and there were some who recognized components of A and B and felt that the two could complement each other (the stance I have). He was one of my better teachers, and I always wish I'd thanked him more for handling it with the aplomb he showed. The school was in the heart of the state of Alabama, in case you were wondering.

I am curious that your teacher would say this. As of 2005, and the case of Kitzmiler v Dover, the teaching of creationism in public schools is deemed unconstitutional.

The problem with teaching Creationism is that it isn't scientific fact. Evolution is a theory, yes, but in the scientific world and vernacular, it means that Evolution = fact. Here's an exerpt from a paper I wrote on "Intelligent Design":

To first explain why “Intelligent Design” is not up to an educational standard, one must understand the difference between scientific fact and theory and how they work with Charles Darwin’s original theory of evolution. While many are aware of the definitions of fact and theory, but there are major differences between the scientific usage of the words and the vernacular. A scientific fact is used to describe a tested observation (NSA, 56). Scientists use facts to explain and provide proof for their theories. A scientific theory is an “explanation of a natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypothesis” (NSA, 56). Scientists have observed evolution on a grand and micro scale happening, which constitutes as a fact. These facts can then be applied to the theory of evolution which “[is] the goal of science” (NSA, 56). Many of proponents of “Intelligent Design” use the argument that evolution is a theory and not a scientific law, therefore it cannot be completely right. This is a falsity because “an scientific law describe a certain phenomena, while theories explain a phenomena (NSA, 57). Evolution, in the scientific community, is regarded as the most correct, stable, and overwhelmingly positive proof of where man and the creatures around us have originated. Thusly, while there are many outspoken contributors to the “Intelligent Design” debate, there is no proof using the scientific method that “Intelligent Design” is correct, while evolution has an entire scientific community standing behind it.

The NSA being the National Science Association.

 

[Tristam Green]

I am curious that your teacher would say this. As of 2005, and the case of Kitzmiler v Dover, the teaching of creationism in public schools is deemed unconstitutional.

The problem with teaching Creationism is that it isn't scientific fact. Evolution is a theory, yes, but in the scientific world and vernacular, it means that Evolution = fact. Here's an exerpt from a paper I wrote on "Intelligent Design":

To first explain why “Intelligent Design” is not up to an educational standard, one must understand the difference between scientific fact and theory and how they work with Charles Darwin’s original theory of evolution. While many are aware of the definitions of fact and theory, but there are major differences between the scientific usage of the words and the vernacular. A scientific fact is used to describe a tested observation (NSA, 56). Scientists use facts to explain and provide proof for their theories. A scientific theory is an “explanation of a natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypothesis” (NSA, 56). Scientists have observed evolution on a grand and micro scale happening, which constitutes as a fact. These facts can then be applied to the theory of evolution which “[is] the goal of science” (NSA, 56). Many of proponents of “Intelligent Design” use the argument that evolution is a theory and not a scientific law, therefore it cannot be completely right. This is a falsity because “an scientific law describe a certain phenomena, while theories explain a phenomena (NSA, 57). Evolution, in the scientific community, is regarded as the most correct, stable, and overwhelmingly positive proof of where man and the creatures around us have originated. Thusly, while there are many outspoken contributors to the “Intelligent Design” debate, there is no proof using the scientific method that “Intelligent Design” is correct, while evolution has an entire scientific community standing behind it.

The NSA being the National Science Association.

It was 1997, so I don't know of precedents during that time, but he taught it in such a way that he didn't directly reference Christian Doctrine, the Bible, or God in any way, but I do remember that there was a document sent home for my parents to sign OK'ing that I'd be taught "viewpoints on the development of life during time" and that they understood what that meant. I think it was more or less a release of liability in case my parents had wanted to sue the school system, or something.

Either way, the teacher was cool as shit, and was about the biggest hippy I've ever met. He actually made frog dissection fun, and I hate frogs.