God and Amputees.

Oh yeah, was going to post this.

I can completely understand why alyada has a lot of animosity towards "christian" people, they, or at least a terrible example of the religion has really done some terrible things to him and those close to him over recent years, and I can easily say it would probably cause the same effect in me.

It really grinds my gears that these scumbags can give the majority a bad name.
 
Declaration of Independence said:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I can quote historical documents where God is referenced, too.

Of Monarchy and Hereditary Succession - Common Sense by Thomas Paine said:
Government by kings was first introduced into the world by the Heathens, from whom the children of Israel copied the custom. It was the most prosperous invention the Devil ever set on foot for the promotion of idolatry. The Heathens paid divine honors to their deceased kings, and the Christian world hath improved on the plan by doing the same to their living ones. How impious is the title of sacred majesty applied to a worm, who in the midst of his splendor is crumbling into dust!......'Tis a form of government which the word of God bears testimony against, and blood will attend it.

I can also quote important historical figures.

I believe the point Bela is making is not that the founders of our nation intended a "Christian Nation" but that many of them were, in fact, Christian (mostly protestant, yes). Consequently, many of their thoughts and ideals were based on their personal beliefs, and a lot of those belief have roots in Christianity.
 
OK, I'm at home now. time for a tl;dr post. Now is a good time for this, I'm high and it's gonna be hard for me to be mean.

Let's continue on with all the generalizations.

Anyone who is prolife bombs abortion clinics.

Not true in any sense, but anyone who is pro-life is forcing their beliefs on everyone else that isn't pro-life. That is a position that would hope to deny the ability to make a life altering choice based on a religious belief.

Besides, no one mentioned this and it is a totally different topic. I really have to wonder why you you bring it up in reference to us making generalizations. Seems like you are generalizing us as making these generalizations. Generally speaking. Generally. You get the general idea.

People who never learned to read are stupid and lazy.

I would have to say any American that never learned to read is either learning disabled or stupid. I don't care who you are, no one is that lazy. Even so, lazy people tend to read more, as you can do it while stationary.

Women who are raped bring it on themselves.

Only ignorant ass dumb fucks think this. It has nothing to do with a belief in either way. Wtf man?

The only things Americans eat are pizza and macaroni and cheese.

Really? The only thing Americans eat is Italian food? This is a new one on me. I always thought we were generalized for Hamburgers and Hotdogs.

Americans eat 12,614,400,000 Hot Dogs a year (over 400 per second).

Fucking ridiculous, isn't it. Your logical fallacy is hasty generalization - my "rational thought" tells me this. You are basing your thoughts on Christians on the actions of a very small portion of Christians who happen to be misguided individuals. Most Christians do not consider their behavior to be Christian at all.

You seem to misunderstand. Even if I thought all christians were good people, I still wouldn't believe in god.

I don't have a problem with people that believe in god. I disagree with them and I automaticly think they are less intelligent, but it in no way makes them bad or less of a person in any way. It's just a character flaw. No worse than alcoholism, no better than biting your nails.

The problem I have is when other peoples beliefs affect me on a personal level. Even the slightest thing absolutely irritates the shit out of me because their are concessions made for people that believe in God. I will give examples so I don't have to come back to this one.

I can't buy alcohol on Sundays.

I have my sister, not able to get married because she fell in love with a woman.

I have to pay taxes (in the form of welfare, food, stamps, wic, etc.) that go to people that won't quit reproducing because god says you shouldnt use birth Control or have an abortion. Being real poor is a very good reason to get an abortion. Don't have kids if you can't afford to take care of them.

We aren't allowed to use stem cells for medical research, effectivly preventing the study of the only treatment that could cure my disease (epilepsy).

I have a government that fights within itself about displaying a religous monument in a fucking courthouse.

In adition to all that, if there was no Religion, there would be no:
Westboro Baptist Church
9/11 Suicide attacks
West Bank/Gaza Strip dispute
Holocaust
The Crusades
The Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials
and on and on...

Tristam Green said:
So send your children to a private school. Not all of them are parochial schools, so it doesn't necessarily have to be "that way".

I am not going to make a concession for someone elses religion. Why should I have to change for them? And your parochial schools are usually where they send kids that have been kicked out of every other school within driving distance.

Actually, the deal about Jesus and the entire New Testament is that God opened Himself to the (former) non-believers through a New Covenant -- namely, the Gentiles. Old Testament, you had to be a Jew to be in the graces of God. New Testament, it doesn't matter anymore! Anyone can do it. Men are the ones who put stipulations on it.

Is this you mocking the thing you are ferverently trying to defend?

More later, I have to go put babies on spikes since I'm a morally devoid atheist and thats what we do.
 
Not true in any sense, but anyone who is pro-life is forcing their beliefs on everyone else that isn't pro-life. That is a position that would hope to deny the ability to make a life altering choice based on a religious belief.

Besides, no one mentioned this and it is a totally different topic. I really have to wonder why you you bring it up in reference to us making generalizations. Seems like you are generalizing us as making these generalizations. Generally speaking. Generally. You get the general idea.

I would have to say any American that never learned to read is either learning disabled or stupid. I don't care who you are, no one is that lazy. Even so, lazy people tend to read more, as you can do it while stationary.

Only ignorant ass dumb fucks think this. It has nothing to do with a belief in either way. Wtf man?

Really? The only thing Americans eat is Italian food? This is a new one on me. I always thought we were generalized for Hamburgers and Hotdogs.

Americans eat 12,614,400,000 Hot Dogs a year (over 400 per second).

LOL @ your general use of the general word general.

My generalizations were in response to the following:

They directly impede on my life, and therefore I have a right to say something about it. They come to my door, praising the good word. They yell at my friends for being gay. They protest on my schools fucking doorstep for the funerals of 5 men and women killed in a terrible tragedy. They judge and judge and judge. They ask for money. They put "In God We Trust" on my money. They've been taking away our rights, one by one, for the past 8 years (I'm looking at you G.W.B). They're hypocrites. They dismiss all rational thought.

I could go on, but Christians piss me off. Get a life and accept that the only place you're going after you die is a grave.

In that post, Alyada fell vicitm to the logical fallacy hasty generalization. I was providing other examples of that particular logical fallacy to illustrate how ridiculous it really is. I don't believe any of those things FYI.
 
More later, I have to go put babies on spikes since I'm a morally devoid atheist and thats what we do.

I'm only going to say this one more time.

Stop acting like we're calling you names, or saying we're better than you. We're not. You're no better than us, we're no better than you.
 
If this is a real reason why you don't believe in any higher power, i truly feel sorry for you.

If you read the actual post, this was the reason he feels that others believing in god affects him. And it is completely true.


Btw law and order episode on religion on now on TNT. Good stuff hehe
 
You seem to misunderstand. Even if I thought all christians were good people, I still wouldn't believe in god.

I don't have a problem with people that believe in god. I disagree with them and I automaticly think they are less intelligent, but it in no way makes them bad or less of a person in any way. It's just a character flaw. No worse than alcoholism, no better than biting your nails.
It doesn't make us less intelligent we just have a different view of life than you. Our life experiences and education just lead to different beliefs.

The problem I have is when other peoples beliefs affect me on a personal level. Even the slightest thing absolutely irritates the shit out of me because their are concessions made for people that believe in God. I will give examples so I don't have to come back to this one.

I can't buy alcohol on Sundays.
In certain counties in SC you can't but you can buy acohol from a restaurant.
I have my sister, not able to get married because she fell in love with a woman.
The states are slowly passing laws that are allowing them to get married. It might not be what most Christians consider right but I think they should be able to get married.

I have to pay taxes (in the form of welfare, food, stamps, wic, etc.) that go to people that won't quit reproducing because god says you shouldnt use birth Control or have an abortion. Being real poor is a very good reason to get an abortion. Don't have kids if you can't afford to take care of them.
I think Roman Catholics don't believe in birth control but Protestants like me do. Also the church promotes not having sex before your married. Yeah Christians don't promote abortion but I think it's a woman's choice.

We aren't allowed to use stem cells for medical research, effectivly preventing the study of the only treatment that could cure my disease (epilepsy).
I am sad that it happens. I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the stem cell issue.

I have a government that fights within itself about displaying a religous monument in a fucking courthouse.

In adition to all that, if there was no Religion, there would be no:
Westboro Baptist Church
9/11 Suicide attacks
West Bank/Gaza Strip dispute
Holocaust
The Crusades
The Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials
and on and on...
Yes a lot of people screw the religion to have it serve their own political views to get what they want. There are wars that have nothing to do with religion as well and there would still be wars if no one believed in God. Also most Christians don't consider the Westboro Baptist Church as good Christians. We're not supposed to be about spreading hate.

I am not going to make a concession for someone elses religion. Why should I have to change for them? And your parochial schools are usually where they send kids that have been kicked out of every other school within driving distance.
You shouldn't have to unfortunately for you they haven't separated religion from everything. Honestly I think they have been doing a pretty good job of it around where I live.

More later, I have to go put babies on spikes since I'm a morally devoid atheist and thats what we do.
I wasn't calling you morally devoid. I just wanted you to realize that there being Christians in the world doesn't mean we'll are trying to convert you. I respect your beliefs and I knew that you had your own reasons for them. You can be a good moral person and not believe in religion.
 
I can't buy alcohol on Sundays.
NOTHING to do with religion. Look up liquor sales laws. The requirement is for 6 days open, 1 day closed. It's the LAW. They chose Sunday due to the high population of people unwilling to buy on Sunday. Simple.

I have my sister, not able to get married because she fell in love with a woman.
Civil unions exist for a reason. Work on fighting to make them equal with marriage.

I have to pay taxes (in the form of welfare, food, stamps, wic, etc.) that go to people that won't quit reproducing because god says you shouldnt use birth Control or have an abortion. Being real poor is a very good reason to get an abortion. Don't have kids if you can't afford to take care of them.
Thank liberals, not Christians. God does NOT say not to use birth control(WTF????) Don't open your legs like a slut if you can't take care of them. Murder is not the answer.

We aren't allowed to use stem cells for medical research, effectivly preventing the study of the only treatment that could cure my disease (epilepsy).
Which have proven... to be useless. We have obtained far more useful research with *ACTUAL* results through a different cell research which eludes me, but supports HAVING the child, not murdering it.

I have a government that fights within itself about displaying a religous monument in a fucking courthouse.
Welcome to America. Exits are located North and South.
 
You live in Tennessee you can buy alcohol on sundays after 12pm, not that your statement didn't have weight, it's true that it's supposed to be a separation of church and state but some laws wedge in there.
 
Bela said:
NOTHING to do with religion. Look up liquor sales laws. The requirement is for 6 days open, 1 day closed. It's the LAW. They chose Sunday due to the high population of people unwilling to buy on Sunday. Simple.

And who makes liquor laws...

Bela said:
Civil unions exist for a reason. Work on fighting to make them equal with marriage.

Please... explain

Bela said:
Thank liberals, not Christians. God does NOT say not to use birth control(WTF????) Don't open your legs like a slut if you can't take care of them. Murder is not the answer.

Murder is a fine answer imo... but this is another debate. We are debating the existence of god not whether or not he thinks we have alotta whores.

Bela said:
Which have proven... to be useless. We have obtained far more useful research with *ACTUAL* results through a different cell research which eludes me, but supports HAVING the child, not murdering it.

please... provide proof

Bela said:
Welcome to America. Exits are located North and South.

yea... use one of them please.
 
If this is a real reason why you don't believe in any higher power, i truly feel sorry for you.

... I didn't give that as a reason as to why i'm not a christian. That really has nothing to do with it. I don't even drink. That is just another choice that is taken away from everyone in this country.

Stine said:
It doesn't make us less intelligent we just have a different view of life than you. Our life experiences and education just lead to different beliefs.

Right on. It doesn't neccesarily make you less intelligent, I guess, but it shows a certain amount of gulliblity. Gullibility shows lack of intelligence. This is not factual by any means, just my observation.

I think Roman Catholics don't believe in birth control but Protestants like me do. Also the church promotes not having sex before your married. Yeah Christians don't promote abortion but I think it's a woman's choice.

All true. It should be noted that teaching abstinance to teenagers is about like trying to potty train a dog by teaching him not to pee at all. It doesn't work and it causes teen pregnancy rates to raise. Yet another way religion directly affects everyone else.

Yes a lot of people screw the religion to have it serve their own political views to get what they want. There are wars that have nothing to do with religion as well and there would still be wars if no one believed in God. Also most Christians don't consider the Westboro Baptist Church as good Christians. We're not supposed to be about spreading hate.

You are right, it is used as a political tool. That is why it was invented. People who used it to control the masses are the reason it spread so fast.

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
-Napoleon Bonaparte

You shouldn't have to unfortunately for you they haven't separated religion from everything. Honestly I think they have been doing a pretty good job of it around where I live.

Not reeally, it's just so ingrained in every part of your life you don't notice it.

I brought up marriage earlier. A marriage, by definition, creates rights and obligations on the married parties, and sometimes on relatives as well. These may include:

giving a husband/wife or his/her family control over a spouse’s sexual services, labor, and/or property.
giving a husband/wife responsibility for a spouse’s debts.
giving a husband/wife visitation rights when his/her spouse is incarcerated or hospitalized.
giving a husband/wife control over his/her spouse’s affairs when the spouse is incapacitated.
establishing the second legal guardian of a parent’s child.
establishing a joint fund of property for the benefit of children.
establishing a relationship between the families of the spouses.

A religious ceremony is required to recieve these benefits from the government. I don't think marraige should endow a person with these rights. I think they should have to file for a civil union to make it all legal in the eyes of man, after they get done making it legal in the eyes of god.

Saying "Bless You" when someone sneezes. Why? Archaic superstitious bullshit. I sneeze a lot, and that shit gets on my nerves.

It's on our money, It's in the first line of the constitution. No, all men were not created equal. Man wasn't created at all. All people are equal. That shit needs to be re-written.

Bela said:
NOTHING to do with religion. Look up liquor sales laws. The requirement is for 6 days open, 1 day closed. It's the LAW. They chose Sunday due to the high population of people unwilling to buy on Sunday. Simple.

It's a Blue Law. A blue law is a type of law in the United States and Canada designed to enforce moral standards, particularly the observance of Sunday as a day of worship or rest. Most have been repealed, declared unconstitutional or are simply unenforced, although prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas. Blue laws often prohibit an activity only during certain hours and there are usually exceptions to the prohibition of commerce, like grocery and drug stores. In some places blue laws may be enforced due to religious principles, but others are retained as a matter of tradition or out of convenience.

The origin of the term "blue laws" is unknown but is thought to date from 17th century Puritans who crafted laws requiring church attendance on Sunday. In the 21st century, we are left with laws regulating commerce on Sunday - what can and cannot be open and what the opening hours can be. The most commonly prohibited item for sale on Sunday is hard liquor.

Civil unions exist for a reason. Work on fighting to make them equal with marriage.

See above. Religion should be seperate from government policy. Take the rights away from marriage and give them to civil unions.

Thank liberals, not Christians. God does NOT say not to use birth control(WTF????) Don't open your legs like a slut if you can't take care of them. Murder is not the answer.

Catholic doctrine holds that God created sexual intercourse to be both unitive and procreative. This church considers deliberately altering fertility or the marital act with the intention of preventing procreation to be sinful. Thus, artificial birth control methods are forbidden, as are acts intended to end in orgasm outside the context of intercourse (e.g. masturbation or oral sex that is not part of foreplay). At the same time, not having sex at all (abstinence) is considered morally acceptable.

Thanks liberals for at least having the compassion for a short term enabling solution. I suppose the better alternative let them die in the street? When do you give up on a person? I suppose we could send them to rehab, as long as they are religious. You can't do a 12 step program if you don't believe in a higher power.

Welcome to America. Exits are located North and South.

So that's the answer: if you don't like something, leave. How dare I voice my opinion and try to actually change something I don't like about my country. Why go against tradition when I can admit defeat and be the victim of my own design. Why should anyone stick out their neck? Only moron and genius would fight a losing battle against the super ego when giving in is so damn comforting. So people go on, knowing the truth but prefering lies. Don't think, drink your beer, his problems not mine.

Bela, your attitude is pathetic, much like every arguement you have ever presented.
 
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Ok the first thing that needs to be made is a distinction between knowledge and belief. I don’t believe in god but I do not know that he does not exist same as Christians should say that they don’t know that god exists even though they do believe. God help you to get one of them to admit this though.

The funny thing about miracles is that they are usually just misunderstandings… It was a miracle when people sailed around the world for the first time because the world was flat. Low and behold the damn things round.

The biggest problem that I have with religion is that it can be changed at the whims of the people involved to meet the current environment. When Copernicus and Galileo originally stated that the world was flat they were scorned by the church and Galileo was even put to death during the inquisition for defending his beliefs. Then after the evidence was strong enough that the earth was not stationary and .. flat then all of these passages became symbolic.

What bothers me is all of the things that have been done in the name of religion.

For me the sum of my beliefs can be outlined pretty easily. I don’t believe in anything because nothing has provided me with enough proof. If I had to chose I would lean towards the big bang and think that the most dangerous people are the people who claim to know the answer. I don’t have morals either. I am a believer in social contract theory… I don’t kill people because I don’t want people to kill me. I don’t steal from people because I don’t want people to steal from me. I give up a little bit of my rights to the government so that they can maintain this control and to me… this and a solid currency is the extent to which the government should be controlling my life.

Now I bring government into this for a reason, because I believe this to be the true value of religion. Religion like government is a means of control. It convinces people that they have to act a certain way because their “eternal souls” depend on them being good citizens and working hard to get a better seat in heaven or I guess to at least get there. Repentance exists for the same reason. If people gave up hope that they could get into heaven what purpose would there be to be good.

Religion reminds me of democrats… strange as that is… good intentions that are poorly thought out.

I am not religious because I think it is a waste of time and money. Also I think that we should tax religious institutions as if they were businesses since they tend to act like one.

As to who the burden of proof is on... It is natural to believe in nothing where as Christians are the ones that have to convince you to believe in something.
 
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Welcome to America. Exits are located North and South.

Most juvenile response I've seen in this thread so far, and it's the second time you've said it. Spare us the "Love it or leave it" crap. There's always the third option: Change it.
 
The problem I have is when other peoples beliefs affect me on a personal level. Even the slightest thing absolutely irritates the shit out of me because their are concessions made for people that believe in God. I will give examples so I don't have to come back to this one.
Honestly continually disrespecting us by calling us gullible and less intelligent is not promoting a civil conversation in the least. By trying to force us to believe otherwise, how are you any better than the people who made the laws that affect you on a personal level? Even Richard Dawkins says that he is a 6.8 out of 7 on his atheist scale. Why? Because as a scientist he has to be open to the possibility that there could be a God. Again, until science disproves that God exists, people will still believe. We have a right to as you have a right to not.

We weren't asking you to convert, just to be respectful. We are respectful that you have different beliefs. Most of the Christians on this board aren't going to try to make you convert or suppress you in any way.

If you don't like the laws, work to get them changed! I don't know how you take part in the political process now but loby, write to your representatives or support the election of new representatives.
 
Scientists could hand-deliver definitive proof that gods do not exist and people would still believe in them. There are libraries filled to the rafters with evidence for evolution, but there are still people who refuse to accept it (evolution). For that matter, there are still people around who believe the sun orbits Earth.

Science will never snuff out a religion; only time and newer gods can do that.
 
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Scientists could hand-deliver definitive proof that gods do not exist and people would still believe in them. There are libraries filled to the rafters with evidence for evolution, but there are still people who refuse to accept it. For that matter, there are still people around who believe the sun orbits Earth.

Science will never snuff out a religion; only time and newer gods can do that.

I believe in evolution so I don't see how definitive proof would not make me believe.

I think that I'm going to back out of this conversation because both sides keep repeating the same things over and over again. I respect everyone's views and their right to have those views. It's obvious that there are people on both ends that have very good reasons for believing what they do. Thank you for the conversation.
 
I believe in evolution so I don't see how definitive proof would not make me believe.

My post was unclear. I meant there are still people who do not believe in evolution despite mountains of evidence for it. My point is that no matter what you do, there will always be people who are unconvinced by facts.

Apologies. I'll go back and clarify.
 
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The way I see it religion should be a personal thing, as long as there's no influence by religion on anything to do with how a country is run I haven't a problem with it. However, more often than not many laws are reiligously influenced (if that's even a word).

I don't think believing in a god is a particularly good thing but if it makes people happy then that's all that matters really. Just don't try and convert people or use religion as an excuse/reason/influence for anything that effects others :)
 
The only thing that makes me not an atheist is this question. What happened before it all existed? What started everything in motion? Big bang theory? What was before that? Expanding/Collapsing theory? What happened BEFORE that?

There's two options at that point for me. God and cyclical time. Both improbable, both possible. That's why I'm not an atheist, I can't rule out either.

This is exactly how I feel about it. For me, science can only explain so much, the rest of it I have to rely on faith.
 
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