God and Amputees.

[Arctyrael]

As for being gay... it's a feature, not a bug.

Sociologically that is a theory they are pursuing.

 

[Bela]

This statement kind of struck me as odd because i really want to know did you choose to be Christian? Was there a time in your life when you were not Christian... or were you a Christian and just didn't know what that meant yet. I mean i personally was born a Christian and it wasn't until i got my own opinion on the subject that i chose not to be one.

The truth is you are acting like there is a conscious choice. Now being gay much like being Christian sometimes there is but not always. A lot of people are just victims of their environment. I mean i didn't chose to be Christian but i was until i was 14 because my parents were. At the same time some people are brought up in certain environments where they are more likely to be gay or have events in their lives which make them switch teams... either way this does not make it a conscious choice as you seem to think it is.

Saying someone has a choice means that they were able to look at both sides of the argument and they decided which one to go with. Or do you wake up every morning and say to yourself today im gonna be a straight Christian? maybe you do make that choice every morning... not me.. i get up jump in the shower and enjoy my life.

Ya know... that is the best way I've ever seen it put. While I disagree with your standing, I rate you up based on such a valid point. Contrary to Trip's ignorant comments, I ONLY look at facts (or the lack of). If they came one day and showed scientifically homosexuality was a genetic, I would very much accept it and apologize to anyone I may have offended with arguing the opposite. I can admit when I'm wrong, but until proven so, I shouldn't have to.

Dejavu put it very interestingly. How you are raised is very much a part of who you are, whether you agree with it or not. I was -raised- Christian, shown the religion and no, I had no choice until I hit about 12.
From that point I picked apart the religion and followed what I felt was right.

I do not believe homosexuality is some death sin. I do not feel that EVERYONE should be Christian, nor do I feel a majority of the bible as anything but a guidelines.
I follow simple rules.
Treat others the way you wish to be treated.
Respect the beliefs of others.
Love thy neighbor.
Cherish thy family.
And most importantly of all. Recognize everyone as equal in their own way. What is flawed to you, may be miraculous to someone else.

So go ahead and say I'm a bible thumping JW but the above is all I got from religion. The majority of my feelings are based on my personal experiences and surroundings.

So I will first apologize, to Aly, who was obviously upset by my comment, as well as any others who may have felt slighted.
I have nothing against homosexuality. If I did, I'd be among those self-hate groups and my God taught me to love myself and that ANY "sin"(if you even still wish to call it that) has no degree. With that in mind, I feel if I lead a good life and keep my beliefs, regardless my preferences, I won't be judged negatively if/when the time comes.

 

[Alyada]

Ya know... that is the best way I've ever seen it put. While I disagree with your standing, I rate you up based on such a valid point. Contrary to Trip's ignorant comments, I ONLY look at facts (or the lack of). If they came one day and showed scientifically homosexuality was a genetic, I would very much accept it and apologize to anyone I may have offended with arguing the opposite. I can admit when I'm wrong, but until proven so, I shouldn't have to.

Dejavu put it very interestingly. How you are raised is very much a part of who you are, whether you agree with it or not. I was -raised- Christian, shown the religion and no, I had no choice until I hit about 12.
From that point I picked apart the religion and followed what I felt was right.

I do not believe homosexuality is some death sin. I do not feel that EVERYONE should be Christian, nor do I feel a majority of the bible as anything but a guidelines.
I follow simple rules.
Treat others the way you wish to be treated.
Respect the beliefs of others.
Love thy neighbor.
Cherish thy family.
And most importantly of all. Recognize everyone as equal in their own way. What is flawed to you, may be miraculous to someone else.

So go ahead and say I'm a bible thumping JW but the above is all I got from religion. The majority of my feelings are based on my personal experiences and surroundings.

So I will first apologize, to Aly, who was obviously upset by my comment, as well as any others who may have felt slighted.
I have nothing against homosexuality. If I did, I'd be among those self-hate groups and my God taught me to love myself and that ANY "sin"(if you even still wish to call it that) has no degree. With that in mind, I feel if I lead a good life and keep my beliefs, regardless my preferences, I won't be judged negatively if/when the time comes.

I just have one question: earlier in the thread I posted a link to an article that showed that scientists have observed homosexuality and bisexuality going on in the wild through dolphins and many, many species of monkeys (our "sister" tree from evolution). How is human homosexuality any different?

 

[Linhjah]

earlier in the threat

lol

 

[Arctyrael]

I just have one question: earlier in the threat I posted a link to an article that showed that scientists have observed homosexuality and bisexuality going on in the wild through dolphins and many, many species of monkeys (our "sister" tree from evolution). How is human homosexuality any different?

That still lacks proof that it is a choice, as we don't know to what degree chimps and dolphins can think. They are incredibly intelligent species which leads to the possibility of choice.

However, I feel that it is an assanine choice to choose a sexuality in which people would rather see you dead than to cast a glance in your direction. lolIran. Do you think those "sodomites" want to die because they think differently? I doubt it.

 

[Taurothar]

Arc hit what I was saying on the head. I don't mean "oh we'll poke holes in your faith with logic" persecution, I mean "we'll rape you with a traffic cone because you're different" persecution.

 

[Tristam Green]

Arc hit what I was saying on the head. I don't mean "oh we'll poke holes in your faith with logic" persecution, I mean "we'll rape you with a traffic cone because you're different" persecution.

So I could go to Iran, say "hey guys, I'm a Christian, respect me please" and fully expect that they'd leave me alone?

I'm not denying any kind of persecution on the part of homosexuals anywhere; here in the States or abroad. I'm just saying that while here in the States and most other (I hate using this term to describe one nation versus another) "modern" nations, we enjoy vast amounts of freedom to do as we wish, in other parts of the world we're just as persecuted for how we think/believe as much as anyone else who is "different" than the norm.

Truth be told, I'd much rather hear about how some jackhole in Colorado got rogered with a tree branch by a family for attempting to break into the family's house to rape their daughters, than about anyone doing anything to someone just because that someone happens to be a man who likes men, or a woman who likes women.

 

[Alyada]

lol

-_-

Hatred. Rising.

 

[Linhjah]

-_-

Hatred. Rising.

LOL \(^_^)/

 

[Trippyhippy]

Contrary to Trip's ignorant comments, I ONLY look at facts (or the lack of).

Really?

Lets look back at your post history...

1: Catholics and Christians may have similar beliefs in some cases, but not enough to lump them together. Educate yourself.

FACT: Catholicism is a sect of Christianity.

Have you never heard of hate speech? Stop trying to sound intelligent if such a simple concept escapes you. You can say anything... as long as it doesn't in any way offend any minority.
Saying any race, religion, or sexual preference slang term is HATE SPEECH and will get you SUED. New York City. NIG.GER is against the LAW to say. It's a "banned word". Look it up scholar.

FACT: In America you can't be sued over hate speech. What you were refering to was a faux law in newyork that banned the word ++++++. But there was no legal reprecussion for saying the word, it was considered to be a symbolic gesture, and nothing more.

This isn't me saying the word ++++++ is perfectly acceptable to use in conversation. I may not agree with what a person says, but I will defend until my death their right to say it.

Either you have it or not. You can't force it nor can you remove it. Period.

FACT: millions of people around the world have had it removed. I am living proof. I was religious up to age 14. I feared the wrath of god, believed in heaven and hell, all of it. Then after reading up on the subject, my mind was changed by the combined writings of several authors. In effect, they removed my faith.

What you just aren't seeing is the fact that I completely understand your need to believe in god. I used to believe myself. I can actully see both sides of the arguement in an impartial manner. I have been religious and felt just as adamant in my beliefs as you seem to be. But I kept an open mind and applied logic to the faith system. Like magic, the truth of it all disappeared in a puff of smoke. You think that wasn't hard to accept? Do you think i didn't struggle with the thought of feeling completely alone in the universe? Just like anyone else that has made the transition, I had a rough time with it, as it was a life altering experience. But I dealt with it and admited the truth to myself.

How do you feel about democratic supporters who rallied at a US Army vet's funeral, screaming how we are murdering women/children and these people die for nothing? I guess all democrats are solider-haters.

That's awful. When/where did that happen? News story? Link?

=Bela]and on the "In God we trust" on our currency...
Welcome to a nation founded and raised on Christian beliefs. Maybe not "modern" beliefs, but still Christian basis.
If you don't like how things are, you're free to leave at any time.

FACT: the country was founded by people seeking freedom of religious persecution. There were many non-christians that helped build this country and make it as great as it is today.

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." - Abraham Lincoln

"I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life." - Andrew Carnegie

"All thinking men are atheists." - Ernest Hemingway

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
- John Adams

and so on and so forth.

Stop generalizing because it could be done to you too.
Just remember homosexuality has the highest rate of STD transference.

FACT: The majority of HIV infections are acquired through unprotected sexual relations between partners, one of whom has HIV. The primary mode of HIV infection worldwide is through sexual contact between members of the opposite sex.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3130121
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3225742
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8678397

AIDS also originated from one gay man.

A recent study states that HIV probably moved from Africa to Haiti and then entered the United States around 1969. The Origin of Aids is unkown.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/47/18566

What you are refering to is when AIDS was first reported June 5, 1981, when the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recorded a cluster of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in five homosexual men in Los Angeles.

That was when the CDC did not have an official name for the disease and it was scientificly "discovered".

Does this mean we should ban gays too?

Your version of the facts does, but any idiot can make a straw man arguement.

I haven't seen one intelligent thing you have said since you've been a member of this forum without later contradicting yourself. But my comments are ignorant.

 

[Arctyrael]

Trippy does it again at the bottom of the 9th.

 

[Excim]

I laugh at all people who claim that America was intended to be built for Christianity only. You know, since the Pilgrims came to this land to escape religious persecution in the first place...

 

[Linhjah]

I laugh at all people who claim that America was intended to be built for Christianity only. You know, since the Pilgrims came to this land to escape religious persecution in the first place...

I don't think anyone here has said America was intended to be Christian only. Many that came voluntarily to the New World did so to escape religious persecution. However, that began around 1492, and the Declaration of Independence was drafted in 1776. Quite a bit can change in a little over 200 years.

What has been stated is that many of our founding fathers were, in fact, Christian and consequently held Christian values. Because those values were part of our founding fathers, they were part of the creation of our country.

 

[Ryuhei]

The founding fathers weren't Christian, nor did they have any reverence for its teachings. The majority were Deists (Those who believe that there exists a God, but he has had nothing to do with the universe since creating it. They believe that science and reason are all that are required to make sense of the natural laws that the detached God created.)

Thomas Jefferson, the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, was an outspoken Deist. He did hold some reverence to the character Jesus Christ, but felt that his teachings, and his alone, are the diamonds in the rough of the Bible. That aside, he had serious critique of Christianity as a whole. As did many of the other founding fathers.

Jefferson is quoted as saying:

On Morality: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law."

On Dogma: "Compulsion in religion is distinguished peculiarly from compulsion in every other thing. I may grow rich by art I am compelled to follow, I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment, but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve & abhor."

 

[Ryuhei]

Because those values were part of our founding fathers, they were part of the creation of our country.

Because Christians are all for the First Amendment. I'll grant that it was indeed an amendment, but it was amended very promptly as it was the most crucial to guaranteeing civil liberties. The beliefs behind the amendment were in the mind of Jefferson for many, many years before writing the Declaration.

 

[Linhjah]

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!

The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

He who made all man hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.

God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.

I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.

It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.

>_>

 

[Trippyhippy]

John adams quotes

Hmm. Upon doing a bit more research, I found that the quote I gave was taken out of context. Adams was indeed devoutly religious.

The full text of the quote I posted out of context is as follows:

Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!' But in this exclamatic I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company - John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

That quote by Ben Franklin is not what you think. He was a diest. He believed in god, but he despised organized religion in any form. He was particularly criticle of christianity.

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."

"How many observe Christ's birthday! How few, his precepts! O! 'tis easier to keep holidays than commandments."

"Revealed religion has no weight with me."

"The things of this world take up too much of my time, of which indeed I have too little left, to undertake anything like a reformation in religion"

-Ben Franklin

Same thing with your jefferson quote. He was a Diest as well, not a christian. Though his religious views diverted widely from the orthodox Christianity of his day, throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, spirituality, and biblical study. His religious commitment is probably best summarized in his own words as he proclaimed that he belonged to a sect with just one member.

Jefferson's conclusions about the Bible are noteworthy. He considered much of the new testament of the Bible to be lies. He described these as "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture". He described the "roguery of others of His disciples", and called them a "band of dupes and impostors" describing Paul as the "first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus", and wrote of "palpable interpolations and falsifications". He also described the Book of Revelation to be "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". While living in the White House, Jefferson began to make his own condensed version of the Gospels, omitting Jesus' virgin birth, miracles, divinity, and resurrection, primarily leaving only Jesus' moral philosophy, of which he approved. This compilation was published after his death and became known as the Jefferson Bible.

For Jefferson, separation of church and state was a necessary reform of the religious "tyranny" whereby a religion received state endorsement, and those not of that religion were denied rights, and even punished.

Following the Revolution, Jefferson played a leading role in the disestablishment of religion in Virginia. Previously the Anglican Church had tax support. As he wrote in his Notes on Virginia, a law was in effect in Virginia that "if a person brought up a Christian denies the being of a God, or the Trinity ...he is punishable on the first offense by incapacity to hold any office ...; on the second by a disability to sue, to take any gift or legacy ..., and by three year' imprisonment." Prospective officer-holders were required to swear that they did not believe in the central Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

From 1784 to 1786, Jefferson and James Madison worked together to oppose Patrick Henry's attempts to again assess taxes in Virginia to support churches. Instead, in 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom, which he had first submitted in 1779 and was one of only three accomplishments he put in his own epitaph. The law read:

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

 

[Neisan]

I just came to say I have issues with the Catholic Sect myself >.>

 

[Ryuhei]

Hmm. Upon doing a bit more research..

Well said. The, "this nation was founded on Christian values," (or worse, "Christian Nation") statement is one I have particular disgust with.

Many of the founding fathers were Deists, many Protestant. What Trippy said fills in the blanks on how the most prominent of the founding fathers felt.

 

[Fellina]

The problem with the whole "country being founded on Christian values" line is that it's both technically correct and grossly misconstrued. Many of the Deist founding fathers (see: Trippy's post regarding the Jefferson bible) were what might be called "Christian deists". They believed in the moral value of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, but give no credence to the stories of him being the son of God.

So, the correct context would be to say "This country was founded in part on the values of the moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who coincidentally happens to be associated with the Christian faith." The problem, of course, is that many people use the fire and brimstone teachings of the Christian faith, (which the Deist fathers absolutely did not believe in) to enact legislation that reflects their religion. (Blue laws, sanctity of marriage amendments, etc.)