Guildleves and the 48 Hour Cool Down

[Zaltana]

funny thing about this is that it all could completely change before the game comes out

 

[Twinzero]

I look forward to seeing what changes they make for Open Beta.

 

[Raesvelg]

funny thing about this is that it all could completely change before the game comes out

Party pooper.

 

[Uzor]

The bolded part is key. I keep telling people, yeah its your money you pay, but its THEIR game, if you don't like it, dont buy it and go play something else instead of whining as to what you think the game SHOULD be like =P Make a statement with your pocket book, and they might just listen XD

The thing is, a lot of people have, which worries me. Less subscribers means se will spend less time on it, which means a worse game.

And don't compare it to starcraft, that's just stupid. It's not even a little bit similar.

 

[Zaltana]

The thing is, a lot of people have, which worries me. Less subscribers means se will spend less time on it, which means a worse game.

And don't compare it to starcraft, that's just stupid. It's not even a little bit similar.

i'm not comparing it to starcraft's game play, i'm comparing the principles. maybe i should have used a different game. the point is that you have to work towards getting the thing that you want. where most players today want it handed to them before they even start the game.

you wanna use those battle cruisers, you gotta follow the tech tree. You wanna cap your exp you gotta follow the lvl system. SE isn't "dictating" anything (that always kills me when people speak about this along those lines). they are making a system they believed would keep the game balanced. now they are working to adjust that system so that they will maintain that lvl of balance while upsetting as few players as possible.

 

[Raesvelg]

the point is that you have to work towards getting the thing that you want.

Ah, but the issue here is that players are being forced to do things other than getting the thing that they want, assuming that they actually want to play the game that they're paying for. It's not an argument about whether you need to work to achieve your goals; I don't think any of the players complaining about this issue are doing so because they're afraid of a little effort.

 

[Bajaratt]

you wanna use those battle cruisers, you gotta follow the tech tree. You wanna cap your exp you gotta follow the lvl system. SE isn't "dictating" anything (that always kills me when people speak about this along those lines). they are making a system they believed would keep the game balanced. now they are working to adjust that system so that they will maintain that lvl of balance while upsetting as few players as possible.

They are dictating, they're dictating exactly how fast you can level up your jobs, and basing that speed solely on how much time(yes, it's off experience, but it's realistically a time measurement) they think you should be spending to play the game each week. If I'm paying for the service, I should be able to do whatever I want, and use it however long I want. It's very bad faith on their part. It's like an ISP saying you can only use 8 hours of internet access each week, until you go do something else for long enough until to "recharge" your usage.

This system isn't about balancing at all, don't know where you're trying to go with that, honestly.

They might be trying to upset as few players as possible, but they're upsetting their most important market: the hardcore players. Casual players will join, level, and quit in a matter of weeks/months; it's the hardcore players who are the ones who stay for years. By all means they should be trying to appeal to the casual crowd, and they already had with the guildleve system. The fatigue, or whatever, is completely unnecessary to that end and all it will do is anger those who have a lot of free time to play the game if they choose.

 

[Eilistrae]

I get your PoV Baj, I'll be one of those casual players that keeps it up for years though! lol I just don't want to get so immersed that my husband will divorce me haha

 

[Bajaratt]

Yeah, I'm going to be mostly a casual player this time around, I don't have nearly as much free time as when I started FFXI; but I still think this move is a horrible idea with zero benefit.

 

[Zaltana]

They are dictating, they're dictating exactly how fast you can level up your jobs, and basing that speed solely on how much time(yes, it's off experience, but it's realistically a time measurement) they think you should be spending to play the game each week. If I'm paying for the service, I should be able to do whatever I want, and use it however long I want. It's very bad faith on their part. It's like an ISP saying you can only use 8 hours of internet access each week, until you go do something else for long enough until to "recharge" your usage.

The money is the only reason people are up in arms about this. Going with your angle you can say anyone that makes rules or a system for anything is dictating what you. Restaurants dictate what you can or cant order at their establishment. People dictate what you can or cannot do in their houses. This message board dictates what you can or cannot post. But we don't think of it that way because we're not fussy about those issues.

This system isn't about balancing at all, don't know where you're trying to go with that, honestly.

i like to think its common sense. I like to think SE saw how much of a debacle 11 became when they made it to easy to gain 75, hence the birth of lvl sync. despite what others may want to believe they do make note of this stuff.

They might be trying to upset as few players as possible, but they're upsetting their most important market: the hardcore players. Casual players will join, level, and quit in a matter of weeks/months; it's the hardcore players who are the ones who stay for years. By all means they should be trying to appeal to the casual crowd, and they already had with the guildleve system. The fatigue, or whatever, is completely unnecessary to that end and all it will do is anger those who have a lot of free time to play the game if they choose.

personally, i think the fewer we have of them the better. I'll be a long standing casual player myself. SE isn't gonna kiss the ass of the hardcore crybabies that need to be the ruler of a game by yesterday just so they can feel good about themselves.

unfortunately this whole discussion is speculation because the final version of the system isn't even in place. we don't know what the final cut will be, we just have a good idea of what it might be. i get upity about what is, not what might be.

 

[Bajaratt]

The money is the only reason people are up in arms about this. Going with your angle you can say anyone that makes rules or a system for anything is dictating what you. Restaurants dictate what you can or cant order at their establishment. People dictate what you can or cannot do in their houses. This message board dictates what you can or cannot post. But we don't think of it that way because we're not fussy about those issues.

Money doesn't factor into this situation at all. Restaurants dictate a menu, but they don't dictate how much you can order, or which things on the menu you can order(baring a shortage of ingredients); The message board does not dictate how many posts you can make or view. We're not talking about breaking the rules or doing things we shouldn't be doing in the first place. That point seems to be eluding you, that we want to be able to enjoy what we've paid for; without them arbitrarily deciding that you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy your paid-for service just because you have more time to enjoy it than someone else.

i like to think its common sense. I like to think SE saw how much of a debacle 11 became when they made it to easy to gain 75, hence the birth of lvl sync. despite what others may want to believe they do make note of this stuff.

This still makes no sense whatsoever, and I think you're just grasping at unrelated straws to try to justify this stupid decision. Level sync was made to allow people to play with friends who were at lower levels, it had nothing to do with "balance" or people leveling too fast.

personally, i think the fewer we have of them the better. I'll be a long standing casual player myself. SE isn't gonna kiss the ass of the hardcore crybabies that need to be the ruler of a game by yesterday just so they can feel good about themselves.

The attitude is completely unnecessary. Hardcore players are who keeps the games going in the long-term; that's how MMO's work. Casual people move on way too fast to make an MMO a sustainable buisiness model.

Also, the only crybabies are the casual players, the ones who whine "it's too hard, they get so much more stuff than me, it's unfair." That's who they're catering to, and that'd be fine if they weren't penalizing the hardcore crowd. The hardcore crowd knows you actually have to put some effort to get results, the casual crowd is the only group whining about things taking too long or being too hard.

unfortunately this whole discussion is speculation because the final version of the system isn't even in place. we don't know what the final cut will be, we just have a good idea of what it might be. i get upity about what is, not what might be.

SE's already said that it's staying in the game, they're tweaking it, but it's not going away. So it IS happening, they've clearly said what it's intended to do and how it's going to work. People are discussing the system as a whole, not particular details that might possibly change; what we're talking about is definitely going to be in there. Unless they make it take something around 30-40 hours to have the fatigue kick in, which would defeat the whole point of the system; the "we don't know yet, so shut up" argument falls flat.

 

[Strid]

unfortunately this whole discussion is speculation because the final version of the system isn't even in place. we don't know what the final cut will be, we just have a good idea of what it might be. i get upity about what is, not what might be.

With that train of thought the beta phase is a bit useless. The whole point of beta is to discuss, reject ("cry"), etc. over possible game staples and mechanics. No one person is wrong in their opinion of what would make the game better nor are they wrong for having a loud voice toward those opinions. SE asked for us to beta test which means they asked for us to object and support anything they throw in. Even if the fatigue system isn't fleshed out yet, it is important to discuss it on both a positive and negative level. It's better to say something now than to have the attitude of "wait and see" and let it bite you in the ass.

That being said, I'll move to other objections. People, even SE, are throwing around the word "balance" for this system, but it's not about balance at all. At best this system is to create a more diversified job pool. However, that isn't something a game should do on its own. Just like the distribution of money in the U.S. market, it should be up to the consumer to give the jobs their worth and supply. Though that can still happen, it's not solely up to the player to decide at this point in their thought, there is a push from the market to do so. Normally it would be fine because most market pushes are from the positives of a service or item. The problem here is the punitive nature of the push. Punitive pushes, while rare, are also good in society, but here it's a bit much because there is no harm in what is being punished. It's just a system designed to cover the company's ass by tryin' to extend longevity to a system already based on a more casual audience. The leveling system in this game is not to far off the WoW system, or any other MMORPG for that matter. It's already set up for the casual market which is the problem they are tryin' to skirt around.

If that isn't good enough, lets entertain this thought. A casual experience is not one of longevity, it is to accept the idea that longevity is impossible or at least frowned upon. The fatigue system, from a long run perspective, does the exact opposite of what it is said to do if you believe it is to promote a more casual experience. The system will ask of players to stay with the game longer in order to complete usually the most simplistic and quickest goal in an MMORPG, leveling up. While not longer per sitting you end up having to play another month or two which is exactly what they want, that little bit more of subscription fee money than had they let you level up to your hearts content the class you chose.

Unless this game breaks the very mold of society as a whole, the hardcore will still progress much faster than the casuals and do more, first, than the casuals. They will have better gear, higher standards, etc. and do what they've always done, be ahead of the pack. Slowing them down wont change much of anything but how long they play. If you slow down the hardcore you also slow down the casuals, it's very, very simple.

In the extreme spectrum, every purchase of this game extends the message to all MMORPG creators that a system like this is acceptable. Developers would eat this up, it's more sub. time for them to pool off of so if enough says it's okay, hey, the majority will turn to it. They'd be stupid not to. During this change to the MMORPG leveling schema they'll push it further and further and find the point where the restrictions cause the game to suffer and not be worth the product. It may turn out to be 5 levels a week, or 2 a week, you never know, but accepting the limitations sets you up to pay the price down the road. I like to look at things of this nature this, if Activision were to get a hold of this rule, how far would they go.


It's one thing to restrict access to end game content areas and items, but it's a whole 'nother to restrict the very basics of MMORPG enjoyment.

 

[Uzor]

i'm not comparing it to starcraft's game play, i'm comparing the principles. maybe i should have used a different game. the point is that you have to work towards getting the thing that you want. where most players today want it handed to them before they even start the game.

But you're basing it off of the wrong principles. Hardcore people (the ones you claim are whining), are the ones most accepting of working towards their gear, They're the ones camping HNM's every week to get the best gear they can get. They're not the lazy ones, they're the ones working hard. If anything, casuals are the lazy ones.

"Tech treeing" is NOT, however, even comparable principle-wise to telling people they can't level. Its more like telling people they need to camp HNM's to improve their gear. It would be more correct to compare it to the food pool of 200 in Starcraft, and have soft cap of around 10 per Overlord, Pylon or w/e. However, even then you can simply just build a new one to up the limit, until you reach the hard cap of 200 - which can be compared to the level cap of 50 or w/e they'll have on release. If you're gonna compare it to anyone, compare it to Blizzard putting a hard cap of 1 Overlord every 10 min in the game, because "they want games to last longer", and because "it would even the odds more when professionals play against casuals".

A cap like that serves no purpose at all. It doesn't even the odds, it decreases the game experience for both hardcore players and casual players. I mean, in all honesty, do you play computer games for less than 8 hours a week? Because I surely play more than that, and I still have enough time to keep up with school, work etc.

 

[Zaltana]

and everyong is still looking at this like SE is personally wronging them with this game. some of you it wont even effect. so why gripe? level synce was added for both reasons. people comming into that game after ToAU found it extreamly difficult to rise up because the hardcore "gimme gimme gear" players shot up to 75 like a rocket. you certainly havent forgotten the sudden influx of brainless lvl 75's have you? I remember this same type of ranting when SE added sneak tools for nin's and most of you were crying it would break the oil/powder market, which it didn't. nothing they are going its keeping you from playing the game. you can do whatever you want at any time. only thing that you will have to change is your job at the time.

 

[Raesvelg]

People can feel free to gripe because, well, it's a bad idea. I understand their intent (both stated and actual), but this really isn't the way to go about it.

And no, you can't do whatever you want at any time. You can do whatever you want, when SE is allowing you to do so.

People generally accept these sorts of brakes when it comes to endgame. There is an implicit understanding between producer and consumer that this is the way that the game is played; that progress in endgame will be kept artificially restricted in the name of allowing SE to milk more money out of people.

You're going to have a harder time finding people willing to accept the same sort of brakes through the leveling process. Sure, limit the number of certain kinds of high-return quests (guildleves, for example) and while people will complain, they'll understand. Tell them that they can't just grind out exp, and they'll tend to get a little upset.

 

[Zaltana]

well then they can go play something else. if i don't like the system when its final version is cemented i'll just cancel and keep up with starcraft. no huss no fuss. i got more important things to fuss about then the future of MMO's.

 

[Raesvelg]

And therein, as I said earlier, lies part of the concern. MMO's can't afford mistakes these days, lest they be crushed into obscurity by the juggernaut that is WoW. While I don't think anyone really wants FFXIV to reach the same sort of levels as WoW, it'd be nice to have it achieve a comfortable niche where the people who want to play the game don't have to worry about it being canceled in a year or so, or just left to moulder in neglect.

 

[Zaltana]

And therein, as I said earlier, lies part of the concern. MMO's can't afford mistakes these days, lest they be crushed into obscurity by the juggernaut that is WoW. While I don't think anyone really wants FFXIV to reach the same sort of levels as WoW, it'd be nice to have it achieve a comfortable niche where the people who want to play the game don't have to worry about it being canceled in a year or so, or just left to moulder in neglect.

And i think this game will find that nich, even with this system. If i'm wrong no big deal. and there's no doubt that if the system does cripple subscriptions it'll likely be chopped. Someone told me that all their friends canceled their pre orders when she told them about the system. If she explained it to them in the manner you all gripe about it i can see why. I'm not passing judgment on this thing till i see it in its final form. which could be changed to a max of 50% decrease in exp instead of zero by the time of release for all we know.

 

[Uzor]

My point is, why not do an exp bonus system? If SE want people to level other classes, why not just make it 100% exp increase for X amount of exp per class per week? That way people can grind whatever class they want without without their exp reducing to 0. If you want to level all the classes, you can do so once your exp bonus runs out. That would be a much better way to handle it. Just because WoW did it before doesn't automatically make it a bad system. I mean, I hate WoW, but even I have to admit there's things WoW do a lot better than FFXI, and now FFXIV. Rested exp is one of them.

They explain this in a "But- in real life you can't train forever without getting tired! We do this to make it more real-wordly!" kind-of-way. Well, if I ever grow a tail and start slaying giant crabs with thunder magic, I'll let you know. If I *WANTED* to do something that resembles real-life, I'd go do shit irl instead of playing FFXIV.

 

[Tribalinius]

And i think this game will find that nich, even with this system. If i'm wrong no big deal. and there's no doubt that if the system does cripple subscriptions it'll likely be chopped. Someone told me that all their friends canceled their pre orders when she told them about the system. If she explained it to them in the manner you all gripe about it i can see why. I'm not passing judgment on this thing till i see it in its final form. which could be changed to a max of 50% decrease in exp instead of zero by the time of release for all we know.

I totally agree with you on this one Zalt. I'll form my own opinion when I'll see it with my own eyes on the 22th.

And, hey, we're talking about the gang of folks who decided to put moogles in selbina after 5 years after all~. Only fools don't change ideas.